Endtime views-preterists and those who aren't

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Justme

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Hi Forum,

I have been having a disussion on the eschaotology forum concerning different views of eschatology. The person I was discussing this with insisted on bringing up preterist points which I could, of course , not deal with on a forum which prohibits full preterism views. That's a bit like entering a two legged cat in a dog fight.

I would like to deal with this persons arguments on this forum and anyone who wishes can join in as well. As well I need help understanding what this person is talking about at times.

NO - I DO NOT BELIEVE THE SPIRITUAL BODY BEGINS AT THE BORN AGAiN EXPERIENCE...IT BEGINS WHEN WE ARE RESURRECTED PHYSICALLY. wHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN, WE RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO CLEANSES US FROM SIN - THE WASHING OF REGENERATION...WE ARE THEN SAVED SPIRITUALLY...JUSTIFIED, AND WILL RBE PHYSICALLY RAISED (REDEEMED) LATER.
join in as well.

I'm not real sure what this says ....no the spiritual body doesn't begin at the born again experience , it begins at the resurrection when we are BORN AGAIN?????? So it looks like it doesn't begin when we are born again, it begins when we are born again!!!!! I assume she means if you are a person who has had the born again experience you will be physically raised to eternal life on earth.........sometime after you have been in Heaven for however many yeas?????
Does anyone know where it tells us in the bible that the holy spirit cleanses us of sin?
Does anyone know what is meant here? I think this person believes she goes to Heaven at death and at some one time future second coming she is resurrected physically on earth.

Can anyone unravel what is meant in that quote for me?

Justme

 

Justme

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Hi Forum,

The following is quoted from a post from the eschatology forum. The person is attempting to prove that the Second Coming is future because it isn't a past event. She is trying to discredit the preterist idea.

Every eye will see Him:
Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
This is not describing an 'invisable 'event or an 'invisable' Lord - but a very visable Lord.

The entire early church missed the Second Coming, if it happened in 70 A.D. as many preterists say. They claim that it is an 'invisable' coming or that those that saw it died....therefore no one can say they knew it happened.
But that is a cop-out - a rationalization to explain why the entire early church apparently missed the fact that the Second Coming had occurred!
They were still looking for it!
First the term 'second coming ' is not in the bible so what is meant when someone speaks of the second coming? In the above quote I think she means that sometime in the future Jesus will physically return to earth and every eye will see Him. She said she didn't know how the mechanics of that worked, but she believed it.

I have never seen a verse that states Jesus returns to earth. He returns to His people, He returns in the air, but I have never seen a verse that He returns to earth.

My understanding of scripture is that at the personal death of each individual, the person experiences the 'second coming ' of Jesus Christ, the judgment is made known to the recently dead person and they are off to Heaven or Hell where they remain for eternity. I see this process having it's beginning at the time of the parousia which is right after the great tribulation which was in 70 AD. The process continues occurring at the death of each individual until Hell freezes over and the devil skates on the ice.

If this parousia was in 70 AD it follows that the resurrections discussed in Daniel 12, John 5, Rev 20 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 were at that time also. That would throw out any endtimes theory which are future , the LDS are doomed and eschatology is a study of a past event.

I'd say it's an important topic.

Justme
 
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blessedbe

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Very interesting Justme, I used to be a pre-trib rapture believer until I really started reading the bible on my own, and couldn't make head nor tails of it with that theory in mind. My brother is also pre-trib(although he could be considered part-preterist because he believed that 70AD was a 'type' of end times--kind of a forshadow or whatnot) and I asked him how he keeps that view. I just can't "see" it when I read the bible.
Anyhow, what I see lines up fairly closely with what you are seeing Justme. I've followed some of your other thread on this whole issue and we seem to think alike on some things.
From the first post's quotation, I would say that you are reading it the way she sees it. That is the way alot of pre-tribbers see it, although, at least in my opinion, it doesn't make alot of sense. And I'm not sure I agree that it's the Holy Spirit that washes away your sins....I'm not sure how she came up with that......
One issue I've always had with futurism is that there seems to be alot of people who get mis-lead due to the "hysteria" that futurism causes...like the end-time cults etc. Also I have a real issue with the way the writers of the bible believed that it was gonna happen SOON, and even Jesus spoke about it being very soon--and here it is 2000+ years later....I'm thinking that maybe, just maybe, we are missing something here....kind of like the Jews completely missed Jesus being the Messiah even though they were looking for Him to come, simply because they mis-understood scripture!

So that leads me to where I am now....almost on the preterist side, although not completely because I just don't understand some things yet, also, it's hard to let go of beliefs that you've had for years and years...!!!

I'll be watching this thread, and responding when I feel I can contribute something good....!!!! :wave:
 
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Justme

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Hi Blessedbe,

You have been going over this for a while now and working hard at it. I hope you arrive at a understanding that provides you with comfort, security and peace.

I remember a few years ago that the main argument for pre trib was the 'caught up' statement of 1 Thess 4:13-18. Caught up meant 'rapture ' . All you had to do was apply the Latin word for caught up instead of the Greek and lo and behold that could mean rapture. ( I think it was something like that) HOwever, the scripture clearly states that the catching up is AFTER the parousia. Not before the trib, not after the trib, but AFTER the coming of the son of man on the clouds.
So that set of verses never illustrated a pre trib 'catching up,' AND they never will.

Some new arguments are put forth now, usually preceded by" I believe............"

Anyway good luck and have fun,

Justme
 
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Hidden Manna

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Hi everyone, I've had trouble posting here. Here is an interesting post for a few weeks ago at another forum concerning this topic.


Quote:
Originally posted by Hidden Manna
When we look at the pattern of the Old Covenant system concerning the Priesthood service in the tabernacle of Moses, it becomes clear how Jesus would have fulfilled all things during the time of that Generation.
The high priest did not have to wait 2000 years to come out of the Holy of Holies on the Day of Judgment “Atonement”. If he did not come out within a short period of time there would not have been any salvation for Israel, and the High Priest would have been struck dead.
During that time of waiting for Jesus to appear the second time the early church was saved by faith. They looked forward to their salvation even though they were saved by faith through grace, but their faith was in something still hoped for “second appearing”.


Hebrews 9:28 is generally one of the first verses offered as proof there is to be a yet future return of Jesus. Let us notice a few things about the text.
The inspired writer says in verse 26 Jesus had appeared “once” to put away sin by sacrificing himself. The Greek word translated once is “hapax” and normally means “once for all time,” see Jude 3, I Peter 3:18. The writer then says Jesus “shall appear the second time unto salvation,” vs. 28.
In Luke 21 Jesus spoke of Jerusalem’s coming destruction: “then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory” vs. 27. He said “when these things come to pass then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh” vs. 28. In verse 32 he said it would be in that generation.
The word “redemption” used here is the identical word used in Romans 3:24; 8:23; I Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7,14, etc. to speak of the redemption of salvation.
With these few facts before us let us draw a conclusion.
One complete salvation DID NOT come at the cross according to the Apostles. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
(Romans 13:11-12). who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 5)
These statement were made some years after the cross. And according to Peter their complete salvation was ready to be revealed in the last time of the old covenant.
Salvation was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then they had no need to further look for its completion.
Christ’s Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the Coming of God in Christ - His First and Second comings being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.
Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus would appear a second time, not many times, unto salvation. Jesus said he was going to return at the destruction of Jerusalem and this would be the redemption [salvation] of his Body. (Luke 21:20-28) He said it would be in that generation. (Luke 21:23) Therefore Jesus’ return in the destruction of Jerusalem, for the purpose of redemption, is the return of Hebrews 9:28.
The force of the word “second” as used here is the same as “once;” Christ would not appear again and again. When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears out side of Holy of Holies who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.
The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28)
The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Since Christ’s coming in 70 was the coming for redemption, and since he was to return only once for salvation per Hebrews 9:28, then Christ’s return in 70 was the final coming of Christ.
This conclusion is corroborated in Hebrews 10:33-39. The writer addresses Christ’s coming in judgment and salvation: “For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and he will not delay.” [Tragically, most of God’s people insist he HAS DELAYED! which makes him a false prophet
The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! It is Jehovah himself that gave the criteria for determining whether a prophet was true or false; if a prophet’s prediction did not come true he was a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:15ff. If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise!
In the margin of your Bible, beside Hebrews 9:28, write Luke 21:28 and Hebrews 10:33-39. These verses give divine commentary on Hebrews 9:28.
Upon what basis can anyone postulate a future coming of Christ? He promised to come [once] again for salvation. He said when it would be; and he kept his word. It is something to ponder.



Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.
Verse 11 says, “...shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.” How exactly did Christ “go into heaven?” Verse 9 says, “...a cloud received him out of their sight.”
Now compare these.
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
God coming with clouds of glory is a recurring theme throughout Scripture.
 
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Breetai

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Although I am not a preterist, I can see the problem with the way that a lot of premillennialists think. Some of them seem to forget that the Kingdom of God is here now, with every believer. Some of them put all of their hope in the future and forget about the past. I've seen some of these people spend all of their time talking about what they think God will do in the future and spend so little time talking about what He was done in the past, namely, dying and resurrecting so that we are saved.
 
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Justme

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Hi Hidden,

Nice commentary.

Suede and I had a discussion about this very thing somewhere as well. He is also of the opinion that the parousia or the coming of the son of man on the clouds was a one time event.

I don't see it that way. I take the returning a second time as an event that happens to every living soul, hence the every eye will see. I see the bible telling us that the process had it's beginning with the parousia of 70 AD.

Simply because it is intended for man to die and after that to face judgment. You are considering that God is already with mankind because after Christ the Holy Spirit rests with mankind. That is biblically correct as well, but remember the NDE's, the temporarily dead had their spiritual encounter with Jesus...or hell. That encounter with Jesus at death is what I consider to be the second coming. The holy spirit has been there to all people? all believers? all along since just after Christ.

I also agree that this whole deal wasn't finished at the cross because all of His enemies were yet to be destroyed and that hadn't taken place yet when Paul wrote Corintians. It had taken place when Paul wrote to Timothy.

Justme
 
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stauron

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The levitical priesthood and ceremony is very important. Christ's action as the high priest don't make sense unless one has that in mind as you read Revelation and Hebrews. The priest did all the work AFTER the sacrifice was slain...

Also, Justme said in the GA forum that the resurrection isn't a future event because it related to the dead. Are we dead? Are christians ever going to be dead? NO! we have eternal life now. We have the Spirit and Christ is with us, the same who conquered death.

When we loose this dust our eternal home is manifested and we will no longer have to filter everything through the flesh.

Good thread, UTD was starting to flag a bit.
 
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Hidden Manna

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Breetai said:
Although I am not a preterist, I can see the problem with the way that a lot of premillennialists think. Some of them seem to forget that the Kingdom of God is here now, with every believer. Some of them put all of their hope in the future and forget about the past. I've seen some of these people spend all of their time talking about what they think God will do in the future and spend so little time talking about what He was done in the past, namely, dying and resurrecting so that we are saved.

Breetai, I glad that you can see that God's Kingdom is here now in the midst of a world that in living without God and without hope unless they turn to Jesus Christ for salvation.

It boggles my mind with the way that a lot of premillennialists think also. It is as if Jesus died went to heaven and as done nothing since and they are still waiting for Jesus to do something like appear physically in a cloud and then all the worlds problems will dissappear.
 
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Hidden Manna

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Justme said:
Hi Hidden,

Nice commentary.

Suede and I had a discussion about this very thing somewhere as well. He is also of the opinion that the parousia or the coming of the son of man on the clouds was a one time event.

I don't see it that way. I take the returning a second time as an event that happens to every living soul, hence the every eye will see. I see the bible telling us that the process had it's beginning with the parousia of 70 AD.

Simply because it is intended for man to die and after that to face judgment. You are considering that God is already with mankind because after Christ the Holy Spirit rests with mankind. That is biblically correct as well, but remember the NDE's, the temporarily dead had their spiritual encounter with Jesus...or hell. That encounter with Jesus at death is what I consider to be the second coming. The holy spirit has been there to all people? all believers? all along since just after Christ.

I also agree that this whole deal wasn't finished at the cross because all of His enemies were yet to be destroyed and that hadn't taken place yet when Paul wrote Corintians. It had taken place when Paul wrote to Timothy.

Justme

I know what you mean Justme. I also would agree with you, however as a Christian our death as far as God is concerned happened when we first believed and received Christ. I can see that your view would hold true for a non-believer when they died and then were judged, but the believer was judged through Jesus dying on the cross.

The second appearing according to Hebrews 9:28 was a fulfillment according to the levidical Preisthood. Here is an excellent artical on the second appearing.

THE SECOND APPERANCE OF JESUS
(Hebrews 9:24-28)
By Ron McRay
1. How little can I write in order to give my readers a correct knowledge of Heb. 9:28?
2. I consider the book of Hebrews to be the most difficult book in the “new testament” to understand (that’s right, even Revelation).
We are looking at a book written to the Hebrews through 20th century western eyeglasses. If we indeed are to discern the correct meaning, we must try to see the book through 1st century eastern eyeglasses. May the Spirit of God help me to communicate the right understanding to you, and may His Spirit assist you in comprehending it.
I have noted that the terms “second coming” or “final coming” of Jesus Christ are not found in the Bible. If people are asked to prove that the Bible teaches a second coming of Jesus or a final coming of Jesus, they either look puzzled, like “Why would you even ask such a stupid question?” or they would offer such passages as Mat. 24 and other comparable scriptures. However, none of those passages mention either of the phrases “second coming” and/or “final coming” of Jesus Christ. The only other answer is, “Because it is stated that way in Heb. 9:28”.
Initially, read Hebrews 9:23-28, with special interest in verse 28, because it deals with the “second appearance” of Jesus Christ.
“(23) It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. (24) For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to APPEAR in the presence of God for us: (25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; (26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world (age, r.m.) hath he APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he APPEAR the second time without sin unto salvation. “(Emphasis mine, r.m.)
One will immediately notice two things:
(1) The phrases “second coming” and “final coming” are not mentioned.
(2) The word “appear” occurs in verses 24, 26, and 28. Do they mean the same?
I
“APPEAR”
The word “appear” in verse 24 is from the Greek word “emphanizo”. The word “appear” in verse 26 is from the Greek word phaneroo”. The word “appear” in verse 28 is from the Greek word “optomai”. Notice that there are three different Greek words translated by the same English word, “appear”. If they mean the same, why did the Hebrews writer use three different words?
EMPHANIZO (Heb. 9:24)
This word literally means, “to shine in”, or it can be translated “manifested”. How was Jesus manifested in this verse? Since His manifestation was in the presence of His Father, one would think it to be a spiritual manifestation, since God is a spirit. A physical manifestation of Jesus before God after His death, burial and resurrection, just does not seem to fit.
PHANEROO (Heb. 9:26)
W.E. Vines (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words), under “appear”, number 4, says, “Signifies, in the Active Voice, to manifest: in the Passive Voice, to be manifested: so, regularly, in the R.V., instead of to appear.” He goes on to say, “To be manifested, in the Scriptural sense of the word, is more than to appear. A person may appear in a false guise or without a disclosure of what he truly is; to be manifested is to be revealed in one’s true character; this is especially the meaning of phaneroo.” God always knew the true character of Jesus, so to think of Him appearing in the presence of God again (as in verse 24), would seem rather strange. The meaning of these two words do not mean the same.
OPTOMAI (Heb. 9:28)
This word is more recognizable to the reader of the English language, since words like “optometrist” (which deals with seeing) are derived from it. It means to see or be seen, depending on whether written in the Active or Passive Voice.
These three words, in context, deal with three appearances of Jesus, the three being used by the writer of Hebrews of:
1. a past appearance
2. a present appearance, and
3. a future appearance.
Even to the novice, it should be apparent that there are three appearances of Jesus mentioned in this context. What does that do to the idea of a “second” or “final” coming of Jesus, especially in view of the fact that neither of the terms “second coming” or final coming” of Jesus appear anywhere in the Bible, especially in Hebrews 9:23-28?
On the surface, what do we see?
1. First, we see Jesus making an appearance in the presence of God (verse 24). Is the second appearance of verse 28 a second appearance in the presence of God? Would you even consider such an interpretation?
2. We see in verse 26 that Jesus appeared at the end of the world (“age”, i.e., Jewish age) to sacrifice Himself for the sins of the people. Is this not His appearance in the flesh, actually seen by humans?
3. Is the next appearance of verse 28 another appearance of Jesus to be seen of mankind? Did not Jesus say, “Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also” (John 14:19)? In a very short time after He spoke this, Jesus did appear in the form of the Holy Spirit on the Pentecost of Acts 2. He had taken His blood into the presence of God and made “atonement” for His sins (not His own sins, for He did not sin personally, but the sins of mankind that He had taken upon Himself). At Pentecost, Jesus’ sin problem had been resolved. He must make one more appearance. At His first appearance before the believers on Pentecost, He had no sins, but others did have sins. Their sin problem must be resolved, which would require another appearance (manifestation).
Since the Bible is a book of types/antitypes, figures (Heb. 9:24) and shadows, the best way to resolve this difficulty lies in the types and figures set forth in what we call the “old testament”. To it we shall direct most of the study from henceforth, and then arrive at a conclusion.
II
THE OLD TESTAMENT HIGH PRIESTHOOD
Aaron was the first high priest of Israel. Miriam was an older sister and Moses was a younger brother. Aaron’s wife’s name was Elisheba, who bore him four sons; Nadab and Abihu (one of which was to become high priest when Aaron died, but they disobeyed God and He killed them) and Eleazar and Ithamar. Aaron was an excellent speaker, and was appointed to be Moses’ spokesman. He was told to meet Moses and go with him to see the Pharaoh of Egypt. He did the signs that were foretold and the plagues commanded of God.
The Israelites murmured against him and Moses for lack of food. He held up the hands of Moses during the battle with Amalek. He was set apart, with his family, to the priesthood, which required sacred garments prepared for him. He was anointed and consecrated to his office by Moses, appointed to light the lamps, burn incense and make atonement.
Two bad things are mentioned of Aaron:
1. He was persuaded by the people to make a molten image, to which the children of Israel could worship, for which Moses reproved him. When he saw the shining of Moses’ face, he was very afraid.
2. He rebelled, along with his sister, and spoke against Moses, and both were reproved by God for so doing.
The priestly duties of Aaron and his sons are prescribed in Leviticus. He was told how he was to enter the holy place, not to mourn for the dead, nor touch the holy things in uncleanness.
He was commanded to number the people with the help of Moses and the twelve princes of Israel. He received the tribe of Levi as his helpers.
One very interesting thing happened, i.e., his rod flourished, and was preserved for a memorial. He died on Mount Hor in the land of Edom and was buried there. On his tombstone (if he had such) could be written, “Born B.C. 1574, died B.C. 1451 at the age of 123 years”.
Now that we have before us the background of Aaron, the first high priest of the Israelites, let us state that we believe the answer to Heb. 9:28 can be found in the duties of Aaron the high priest, which are recorded in the book of Leviticus. Let us note a few of the things, which according to the book of Hebrews were types (figures, Heb. 9:24) of their Messiah, Jesus the Christ. The other figure of Jesus’ priesthood, compared with Melchisedec’s, is another and different subject.
Since Jesus’ principal mission was to save His people (Mat. 1:21), it is noteworthy to observe the atonement procedure of Aaron, the high priest of the physical tabernacle and temple. Then, I will compare that procedure with the work of Jesus for the redemption of mankind.
III

Cont'
 
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Hidden Manna

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AARON AND THE ATONEMENT SACRIFICES
Leviticus, chapter 16, shows us that even though Aaron was the high priest, he could not go any time he desired into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat. If he did, he would die. When he did go into the “most holy place”, he had to wear the sacred garments ordained by God.
Perhaps Lev. 16:6 is the most important verse to begin this study. It says:
“And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house” (cf. Verse 11).
Aaron offered the blood of a BULL to make atonement for himself and his house. What is not said in this verse speaks more loudly than what is stated, i.e., the blood of the bull did not make atonement for all people.
The next few verses tell of the two goats, one for the sin offering for the people and the other to be the scapegoat. Regarding the goat sacrificed for the sin offering, let us read Lev. 16:15-17,34:
“(15) Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: (16) And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. (17) And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. … (34) And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses” (emphasis mine r.m.).
If we have read this correctly, Aaron took a bull and offered its blood as an atonement for only himself and his household. He would then come out of the holy place the first time to cast lots for the two goats, at which time he was seen by the people. The goat selected to have his blood shed, would be killed. Aaron would then take the blood of the goat into the holy place and make atonement for the people. Then he would come out of the holy place the second time and again be seen by the people who were “waiting” for him to make his second appearance. They would then know that their sin problem had been taken care of. It was not the first appearance to them by the high priest that gave them assurance, but they knew that if God had taken care of the sins of the high priest and his house, then they had hope that in just a short time he would make that second appearance unto them and their sin problem would have been taken care of. For “them that looked for him, he would appear the second time without any sin, either of himself or the people”, and then they knew they had a right relationship with God again.
IV
COMPARE AARON AND HIS SACRIFICES TO JESUS AND HIS SACRIFICE
The book of Hebrews does this very thing (with some major improvements in Jesus Christ). But in type/antitype fashion, we have before us the answer to Heb. 9:28.
Contrary to what most believe, Jesus became sin. Whoa, just a minute! Would you please repeat that? Surely. Jesus became sin. Of course, He did not commit sin Himself. How then did He become sin?
“(21) For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: (22) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth” (1 Pet. 2:21,22). However, we forget a couple of things.
1. We have failed to recognize the significance of 2 Cor. 5:21:
2. “For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Because Jesus took upon Himself the sins of the world, God reckoned Him as a sinner. In order to be the offering for the sins of the people, He first had to enter the presence of God and offer His blood (life) for “Himself and His house”, as Aaron did the blood of the bull. This appearance (phaneroo) in verse 24 was for the purpose of taking upon Himself the sins of the world. So, any appearance in the presence of God had to show Himself purged of those sins. When the book of Hebrews was being written, the writer put that even in the past. In fact, it was in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross while on this planet in the flesh. Was it possible for Jesus (or any man) to stand face to face with God until his sin problem had been resolved? Would that not even have included Jesus, since He had on His back the sins of the people?
3. We must compare the blood of the bull regarding the atonement sacrifice made by Aaron the high priest to the blood of Jesus, the eternal high priest. Having offered His blood to rid Himself of sins (the sins of mankind He had taken on Himself), Jesus could then appear (emphanizo) in the presence of God.
“For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear (emphanizo) in the presence of God for us” (Heb. 9:24).
The blood of the bull had been offered to God for atonement of the high priest. Jesus now no longer carried the burden of the sins of the world. His first coming on the first Pentecost after His resurrection was to set in motion the plan to forgive the people by the blood of the goat. In His second appearance, the Hebrew writer said that Jesus’ appearance would be “without sin”. He had to resolve His own sin problem the first time and could not be the one to intercede on behalf of mankind at the same time. But having His sins removed, He would appear (optomai, i.e., “be seen”) the second time unto the salvation of those who waited for Him. Look again at the verse that has troubled us so much:
“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear (optomai) the second time without sin unto salvation.”
Was the “appearance” of Jesus in verse 26 His first appearance to mankind when dealing with the sin problem? Was the “appearance” of Jesus in verse 28 His second appearance to mankind? Most assuredly verse 28 was His second appearance, but what makes us think it was His “second coming”? Can we not distinguish between an “appearance” and a “coming” of Jesus?
Did not Aaron first make an offering of a bull only for himself and his house and then was “seen” outside the most holy place selecting the blood of the goat, which he took back inside the holy place to atone for the sins of the people? Did he not then appear a second time outside the most holy place, showing those who “waited for him” that their sin problem had been resolved?

WHEN WILL OUR SIN PROBLEM BE RESOLVED?
Do we have to wait for a future date to have our sin problem resolved? Are we not “free from sin” at this very moment? Worse yet, did the first century Jews have to wait for 2,000 years or more to have their sin problem resolved? Is it still not resolved? Will it not be resolved until “Jesus comes again” in our near or distant future?
My sin problem was resolved many hundreds of years ago. It was solved by two occasions.
1. When Jesus died on the cross and ascended to the Father.
2. When He made His second appearance in AD 70 to give the saints their inheritance.
Would he give them their inheritance if they were yet in their sins?
The cross of Christ played a very important role in the eradication of man’s sins. But the consummation of the plan of God to free man from the guilt of sin in AD 70 was equally (if not more so) important than the event of the cross. It would do us good to study much about what happened in AD 70.
Instead of the necessity of two sacrifices (of both bulls and goats) for the atonement of the high priest, his family, then all the people, Jesus offered His own life’s blood for the sins of the people. He was the bull sacrifice. He was the goat sacrifice. He was the scapegoat. All three wrapped up in one sacrifice for all things - one time for all time!
“For it (was) not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins” (Heb. 10:4). Jesus’ blood did! Praise God!
CONCLUSIONS
1. Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that looked for him (in AD 70), He appeared the second time without sin unto their salvation. Thank God for Jesus, His saving blood and the salvation He brought at His “second appearance”.
2. These verses do not say nor prove a second or final coming of Jesus Christ!
You have permission to reprint this and share it with whomsoever you wish, provided you copy it in its entirety. Partial reprints are not permissible.
My love to each and every one of you. God bless you.
:)
 
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Breetai

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Hidden Manna said:
Breetai, I glad that you can see that God's Kingdom is here now in the midst of a world that in living without God and without hope unless they turn to Jesus Christ for salvation.

It boggles my mind with the way that a lot of premillennialists think also. It is as if Jesus died went to heaven and as done nothing since and they are still waiting for Jesus to do something like appear physically in a cloud and then all the worlds problems will dissappear.
I have been amillennialist for most of my life. I can see that we are free from sin right now. Jesus made us blameless from sin when He died and rose from death. We are free right now! Many Christians still have to realize that. I have no problem seeing that God's kingdom is with us now. Jesus said that himself in Luke 17:21. But, some things must still be taken literally. Acts 1:11 says, "men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." In what manner did Jesus go up into heaven? Two verses earlier we read, "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight." That was a very literal ascension into heaven, just as it will be a very literal descension from heaven onto the Earth. You preterists seem to ignore this verse altogather. The second coming of Jesus will be a literal event that everyone will see. We read that: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." I cannot see this as being figurative at all. The context demands that we see this coming in the clouds as a literal event.
 
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Hidden Manna

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Breetai said:
I have been amillennialist for most of my life. I can see that we are free from sin right now. Jesus made us blameless from sin when He died and rose from death. We are free right now! Many Christians still have to realize that. I have no problem seeing that God's kingdom is with us now. Jesus said that himself in Luke 17:21. But, some things must still be taken literally. Acts 1:11 says, "men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." In what manner did Jesus go up into heaven? Two verses earlier we read, "he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight." That was a very literal ascension into heaven, just as it will be a very literal descension from heaven onto the Earth. You preterists seem to ignore this verse altogather. The second coming of Jesus will be a literal event that everyone will see. We read that: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." I cannot see this as being figurative at all. The context demands that we see this coming in the clouds as a literal event.




When we look at the pattern of the Old Covenant system concerning the Priesthood service in the tabernacle of Moses, it becomes clear how Jesus would have fulfilled all things during the time of that Generation.
The high priest did not have to wait 2000 years to come out of the Holy of Holies on the Day of Judgment “Atonement”. If he did not come out within a short period of time there would not have been any salvation for Israel, and the High Priest would have been struck dead.
During that time of waiting for Jesus to appear the second time the early church was saved by faith. They looked forward to their salvation even though they were saved by faith through grace, but their faith was in something still hoped for “second appearing”.


Hebrews 9:28 is generally one of the first verses offered as proof there is to be a yet future return of Jesus. Let us notice a few things about the text.
The inspired writer says in verse 26 Jesus had appeared “once” to put away sin by sacrificing himself. The Greek word translated once is “hapax” and normally means “once for all time,” see Jude 3, I Peter 3:18. The writer then says Jesus “shall appear the second time unto salvation,” vs. 28.
In Luke 21 Jesus spoke of Jerusalem’s coming destruction: “then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory” vs. 27. He said “when these things come to pass then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh” vs. 28. In verse 32 he said it would be in that generation.
The word “redemption” used here is the identical word used in Romans 3:24; 8:23; I Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 1:7,14, etc. to speak of the redemption of salvation.
With these few facts before us let us draw a conclusion.
One complete salvation DID NOT come at the cross according to the Apostles. And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
(Romans 13:11-12). who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 5)
These statement were made some years after the cross. And according to Peter their complete salvation was ready to be revealed in the last time of the old covenant.
Salvation was ratified or confirmed through His Cross [not at the Cross], and consummated in His Parousia. Think about it - if salvation was all in all secured at or on the Cross, then they had no need to further look for its completion.
Christ’s Coming in AD70 completed it. Again, salvation came through or via the Cross of Calvary, the Victory of the Cross had an out working to completion in that generation. This is NOT saying that there was some inherent deficiency in the Cross, NO, it is saying the process of salvation started and finished with the Coming of God in Christ - His First and Second comings being the book-ends of Salvation - both encapsulating the Cross.
Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus would appear a second time, not many times, unto salvation. Jesus said he was going to return at the destruction of Jerusalem and this would be the redemption [salvation] of his Body. (Luke 21:20-28) He said it would be in that generation. (Luke 21:23) Therefore Jesus’ return in the destruction of Jerusalem, for the purpose of redemption, is the return of Hebrews 9:28.
The force of the word “second” as used here is the same as “once;” Christ would not appear again and again. When did our High Priest come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people? This question seems to be ignored by many Christians today. It is of vital importance, however, because unless our High Priest appears out side of Holy of Holies who can be saved? The Bible explains and interprets itself.
The example is set in the Old Testament. Every year on the Day of Atonement the high priest would enter in to the Presence behind the veil in the Holiest of all. “Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God.” (Leviticus 23:27,28)
The High Priest must come out from the Holy of Holies to present Himself to the people so they know the blood of the sacrifice atoned for their sins. If the High Priest does not appear the people have no assurance of salvation. No appearance, no forgiveness.
Since Christ’s coming in 70 was the coming for redemption, and since he was to return only once for salvation per Hebrews 9:28, then Christ’s return in 70 was the final coming of Christ.
This conclusion is corroborated in Hebrews 10:33-39. The writer addresses Christ’s coming in judgment and salvation: “For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and he will not delay.” [Tragically, most of God’s people insist he HAS DELAYED! which makes him a false prophet
The Bible has a standard of determining the validity of a prophet! It is Jehovah himself that gave the criteria for determining whether a prophet was true or false; if a prophet’s prediction did not come true he was a false prophet, Deuteronomy 18:15ff. If God does not keep the WHEN part of his promises, he has not kept his promise!
In the margin of your Bible, beside Hebrews 9:28, write Luke 21:28 and Hebrews 10:33-39. These verses give divine commentary on Hebrews 9:28.
Upon what basis can anyone postulate a future coming of Christ? He promised to come [once] again for salvation. He said when it would be; and he kept his word. It is something to ponder.



Act 1:9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.
Verse 11 says, “...shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.” How exactly did Christ “go into heaven?” Verse 9 says, “...a cloud received him out of their sight.”
Now compare these.
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 26:64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, Jehovah rideth upon a swift cloud, and cometh unto Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
God coming with clouds of glory is a recurring theme throughout Scripture.

The best way to interpret scripture is to let scripture interpret scripture.

The second coming. Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, and they also who pierced Him; and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen.

John wrote that this was the "revelation (or revealing) of Jesus Christ" (verse 1) who was coming "with the clouds, and every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth (or land) will wail due to Him. Yes, Amen" (verse 7) . This is the main purpose of Revelation. The revealing of Jesus to the "tribes of the earth (or land)." Now, we must identify, from Scripture, who those "tribes" were, and who were the people who pierced Jesus was and see (his return).

To do that, we must keep in mind this simple rule of interpreting the Bible: let Scripture interpret Scripture. We can do that quite easily by looking at Zechariah 12:10-14.

And I will pour out on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and prayers. And they (i.e., the inhabitants of Jerusalem) shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and shall mourn for Him. As one mourns for an only son, and will be bitter over Him like the bitterness over the firstborn. In that day (i.e., when they look on Him whom they had pierced) the mourning in Jerusalem will be great, like the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, families by families alone; the family of the house of David alone, and their wives alone; the family of Nathan alone, and their wives alone; the family of the house of Levi alone, and their wives alone; the family of Shimei alone, and their wives alone; all the families who are left, family by family alone, and their wives alone.

Obviously, this is the foundation for John’ "every eye will see Him and those who pierced Him, and all the tribes of the earth (or land)will wail due to Him." The Hebrew word for "family" is mishpachah and it means "family; by extension a tribe or people." So, in essence, Zechariah was saying that the "tribes of the land" would mourn for Him whom they had pierced. Who were those "tribes?" "The inhabitants of Jerusalem." This also helps us identify the "earth" in Revelation 1:7. According to Zechariah, the "earth" is the land of Palestine, specifically, Jerusalem. Also, it is those tribes, i.e., the nation of Israel, who would "look on Me whom they had pierced." And because of that, "the mourning in Jerusalem" would be great. With all of this information, we can see that the "tribes of the earth" in Revelation 1:7 are the nation of Israel. The "earth" is Palestine. The land that would mourn is Jerusalem.

So, the main purpose of Revelation would be to reveal Jesus the nation of Israel. The place of this revealing would be Jerusalem. Lastly, this revealing would be to those who pierced Him, i.e., the Jews. This is not a general reference to the Jewish nation as some commentators state, but to Christ's contemporary generation. Therefore, the book of Revelation must have been written before that event.

For John Zechariah 12:10 was applicable to Jesus' crucifixion; but it would receive final fulfillment when "all the tribes of the earth" the inhabitants of Jerusalem would mourn when they looked on him whom they had pierced. This was sufficiently specific as to subject or time that there can be no misunderstanding. As shown Zechariah 12:10 is the background for Revelation 1:7 and the context demands the event be in the first century generation.

Ok now it is up to you to show me that John and Zechariah's teaching was heresy and these two prophets of God did not know what they were talking about because the people of our day are the ones who pierced Jesus and the ever eye to see Jesus return. And please show me from scripture and the Greek were "all the tribes of the earth" in the Zechariah 12:10 means all the people in the world?

As I have already said the Old Testament Jewish saints never had a concept of a second 2.000 years away from the first coming. I will be looking forward to you showing me were Zechariah did not know what he was talking about.
:scratch:
 
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Breetai

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Ok now it is up to you to show me that John and Zechariah's teaching was heresy and these two prophets of God did not know what they were talking about because the people of our day are the ones who pierced Jesus and the ever eye to see Jesus return.
No it's not. I've posted on this stuff before and I'm sure that you know exactly what I would say and still disagree with me. I'm guessing that you've read arguments for both sides and you have chosen what you believe. I don't feel like debating this further. This may seem like a copout, and it is, but I don't want to waste my time here when I'm pretty sure that you already know what I'll likely post and you'll just debate that too.
 
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jenlu

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Breetai said:
No it's not. I've posted on this stuff before and I'm sure that you know exactly what I would say and still disagree with me. I'm guessing that you've read arguments for both sides and you have chosen what you believe. I don't feel like debating this further. This may seem like a copout, and it is, but I don't want to waste my time here when I'm pretty sure that you already know what I'll likely post and you'll just debate that too.
it's been a while since I've been around and would certainly like to hear your response to this. at the moment, I am sitting on the fence of full/partial preterism leaning to partial, but find the arguments for full compelling. I would like to hear your view.:wave:
 
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Breetai

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In Matthew 24:34 when Jesus says that this generation shall not pass away, the greek word is genea. This work can mean race as well as age, generation, etc. Even more, is that Jesus was talking about this generation that shall see these things which are to take place in the end-times. This things haven't happened yet, so this generation that was present in 70AD didn't see everything fulfilled. Jesus didn't descend from the clouds as He said that he would, therefore Jesus did not return in 70AD.

Zech 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

What does this have to do with the end-times? This is a prophecy about Christ.

Hidden Manna said:
As I have already said the Old Testament Jewish saints never had a concept of a second 2.000 years away from the first coming. I will be looking forward to you showing me were Zechariah did not know what he was talking about.
*cough-cough*

The Perso-Babylonian world-year of twelve millenniums, however, was transformed in Jewish eschatology into a world-week of seven millenniums corresponding with the week of Creation. The verse, "A thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday" (Ps 90:4) having suggested the idea that the present world of toil is to be followed by a Sabbatical millennium, "the world to come." Of these the six millenniums were again divided, as in Parsism, into three periods: the first 2000 years devoid of the law; the next 2000 years under the rule of the law; and the last 2000 years preparing amid struggles and through catastrophes for the rule of the Messiah. ("Eschatology," The Jewish Encyclopedia, V, p.211).

Jesus hasn't come back yet. The Spirit of Christ is certainly with us, but Christ has not come back and descended on the mount of Olives yet as Zechariah said that He would. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Maybe you should be showing me were Zechariah didn't know what he was talking about.
 
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Hidden Manna

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Breetai said:
In Matthew 24:34 when Jesus says that this generation shall not pass away, the greek word is genea. This work can mean race as well as age, generation, etc. Even more, is that Jesus was talking about this generation that shall see these things which are to take place in the end-times. This things haven't happened yet, so this generation that was present in 70AD didn't see everything fulfilled. Jesus didn't descend from the clouds as He said that he would, therefore Jesus did not return in 70AD.


Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled [Matt. 24:34].
The word “generation” as used in Matthew 24:34 is from the Greek word “genea,” which means, “by implication an age” the period or the persons. This word has the same meaning as the word “generation” found in Luke 11:50-51, that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of THIS GENERATION; from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zechariah which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, it shall be required of “THIS GENERATION.” Judgment upon Israel, and all the things mentioned in Matthew 24, did happen during the lifetimes of many of those who lived at that time. Several other passages in the New Testament where this identical Greek word genea is used, would be (Luke 1:50; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10).
It is unfortunate that some have defined this word “generation” so as to mean “race,” and try to make Jesus say that all these things would happen before the “race” of Jews had passed away. Jesus was not talking about any “race” of Jews. God told Israel that they were to keep the Passover as “a feast to the LORD throughout your generations” (Exodus 12:14). What did He mean here? Different “races” of people, or rather different periods of time? The word “generation” as used in this verse does not mean “kind, nation, offspring, stock.” The Greek word is genea, meaning by implication an age (the period or the persons).
If the verse meant “kind, nation, offspring, stock,” then it would have had the Greek word “genos,” but it did not: the word is “genea.” An example of the use of the word “genos” (which is not used in Matthew 24:34) would be 1 Peter 2:9, “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation....” Here it is evident that this is the word that means “king, nation, offspring, stock.”
Another Greek word for “generation” is “gennema” and means “offspring - fruit.” This particular word is found in Matthew 23:33, where Jesus said, “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?” But this word is also not the one that is used in Matthew 24:34. A study of the passages where Jesus used this word (genea/generation) shows that Jesus generally used the word in connection with the people who were right then and there in His own time. The places in Matthew where this exact word is used are: Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:23, 36; 24:34. Look them up and see for yourself.
I challenge you to get out a (real concordance) and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means “race” in any other context. Here are all the references in the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 16:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to Jesus’ contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means “race” tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24! We can overlook such a transparent error, but we should remember that this is serious. We are dealing with the Word of the living God here.
One of the best verses that I can think of which clearly shows the true meaning of this word “generation/genea” as used in Matthew 24:34, is Matthew 1:17. So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.” Here are 42 generations. If “race” for example were meant by this word, this passage means there were 42 races of Israel, all of whom came from Abraham’s blood. This passage ought to really settle the matter as to the meaning of the word.
Many irrelevant meanings have been given to this word “generation” by many different expositors. None of them seem reasonable when the proper definition is considered. ‘Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled: Forty years later Jerusalem was destroyed!

Matthew 24:34 is from the Greek word “genea,” which means, “by implication an age” the period or the persons.
New English “I tell you this; the present generation will live to see it all.”
Today’s English Version: “Remember ‘this! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died.”
Moffatt’s Translation: “I tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens.
Weymouth’s Translation: “I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place.”
:sigh:

show me that John and Zechariah's teaching was heresy and these two prophets of God did not know what they were talking about because the people of our day are the ones who pierced Jesus and the ever eye to see Jesus return. And please show me from scripture and the Greek were "all the tribes of the earth" in the Zechariah 12:10 means all the people in the world?

As I have already said the Old Testament Jewish saints never had a concept of a second 2.000 years away from the first coming. I will be looking forward to you showing me were Zechariah did not know what he was talking about.
 
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Hidden Manna

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Breetai said:
Jesus hasn't come back yet. The Spirit of Christ is certainly with us, but Christ has not come back and descended on the mount of Olives yet as Zechariah said that He would. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Maybe you should be showing me were Zechariah didn't know what he was talking about.


The Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord

The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD. -Joel 2:31

I find it interesting that futurist use this passage as support that Jesus has not restored man with God when He said He would.
They say it is yet to be fulfilled, so they are clearly at odds with Apostle Peter. Read Joel 2:28-32 carefully and read Acts 2:14-21 and see what Apostle Peter says.



(KJV) Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, [that] I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
(KJV) Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is [but] the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Now for Zechariah 14>>>>.
The events depicted in Zechariah 14 are most often interpreted as depicting the second coming of Christ when Jesus will descend from heaven and stand on the Mount of Olives and from there set up His millennial kingdom. The chronology outlined in Zechariah, however, does not fit this scenario. Events actually begin in chapter thirteen where it is prophesied that the Shepherd, Jesus, will be struck and the sheep will be scattered (NASB) Zechariah 13:7 Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
This was fulfilled when Jesus says, (NASB) Mark 14:27 And Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, because it is written, ‘I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE SCATTERED.’
What follows describes events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. God will act as Judge of Jerusalem and its inhabitants. As the king, He will send “his armies” and destroy “those murderers, and set their city on fire” (NKJV) Matthew 22:7 “But when the king heard [about it,] he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
(NKJV) Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all the nations (Roman armies) to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
(NKJV) Matthew 24:17 “Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. (NKJV) Luke 17:35 “Two [women] will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. (NKJV) Matthew 24:16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
This happened when the Roman armies, made up of soldiers from the nations it conquered, went to war against Jerusalem. Rome was an empire consisting of all the known nations of the world (KJV) Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
As you can see from a Biblical perspective the Roman Empire was “all the world.”
The Romans marched their armies, composed of many nations, to besiege Jerusalem, was “the day of the Lord” Jesus, on which he came to “destroy those that would not that he should reign over them” [Matt. 22:1_10; 24:3, 23_35; Luke 19:11_27, 41_44]. When the Romans had taken the city, all the outrages were committed, and the miseries endured, which are here predicted [Luke 21:20_24]. A very large proportion of the inhabitants were destroyed, or taken captives, and sold for slaves; and multitudes were driven away to be pursued by various perils and miseries: numbers also, having been converted to Christianity, became citizens of “the heavenly Jerusalem” and thus were “not cut off from the city” of God [Gal 4:21_31; Heb. 12:22_25].
(NKJV) Zechariah 14:4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, [Making] a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
This is the passage that you use to support your view that Jesus will touch down on planet earth and set up His millennial kingdom. Numerous times in the Bible we read of Jehovah “coming down” to meet with His people. In most instances His coming is one of judgment; in no case was He physically present. Notice how many times God’s coming is associated with mountains.
(NKJV) Genesis 11:5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. 7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”
(KJV) Exodus 3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians
KJV) Nehemiah 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
(KJV) Psalms 144:5 Bow thy heavens, O LORD, and come down: touch the mountains, and they shall smoke.
(KJV) Isaiah 31:4 …… the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
(KJV) Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
(KJV) Isaiah 64:3 When thou didst terrible things [which] we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

Not one of these comings of God physical. The Bible uses figurative language all throughout.
Look at the passage below when judgement was pronounced on Israel.
This judgement was carried out by a foreign nation (Assyria) just as Zech.14 was carried out by a foreign nation (Rome).

(KJV) Micah 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem. 2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple. {all ye...: Heb. ye people, all of them} {all that...: Heb. the fulness thereof} 3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, [and] as the waters [that are] poured down a steep place. {a steep...: Heb. a descent} 5 For the transgression of Jacob [is] all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel.
You have to be inconsistent with your rendering of Scripture if you say Zech.14 is literal if these others are not.
BTW there is no “millennial” reign mentioned in Zech.14.
 
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Hidden Manna

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jenlu said:
Hidden Manna

I know I've read the words in your post(almost exactly, if not exactly) in a book. maybe Last Day's Madness by DeMar or Paradise Restored by Chilton. Yes?

Could be.

I was just wandering what it is that you are not sure of as far as leaning towards a full preterist belief?
 
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