Eschatological Views

Justme · Jul 26, 2004

Hi Free,

The nature of Christs resurrection body

Click to expand...

Jesus, once resurrected was not a just a spirit who was made visable to select people. He had a glorified, imperishable physical body and only showed a select group of people that He was resurrected :

Actually Jesus WAS granted to be visible to certain people, meaning that to others He would be invisible. As well, at certain times Jesus became invisible to the people who also saw Him visibly at other times. What does all this mean...I don't know. However, to ignore the invisibility and insist only on the present and totally physical things would be wrong. To say that Jesus had a glorified body is very true, but He had that glorification from before as we see here:

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

His words tell us He was raised in the same body that He died inbut because He was with them, it was now an imperishable body.

Yes the resurrected body is imperishable, immortal, glorious, and it is a heavenly body.

He appeared in the same body He died in to Thomas and others. To some He stood in front of He was invisible, to some He ate with He suddenly become invisible. Invisible is no big deal for God, but for mortal man it is a different story.

The monstrous key to this is that we do not compare our resurrection with that of Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus rose from the dead, Jesus was the firstborn of the dead, but if we want to know about our resurrection body, that is in 1 Cor 15:35 to 58. Jesus was God, Jesus was a spirit before He was a man, Jesus was invisible in the universe before He was visible as a man, Jesus was glorified before He died, Jesus was special, common mankind is not.

Nothing in tha biblical explanation of our resurrection body would indicate anything physical or natural. To the contrary these verses spell out the spiritual heavenly body for mankind. Heavenly as opposed to earthly and the heavenly comes AFTER the earthly..

Actually scripture does not tell us he passed through walls. It tells us He appeared in the room while the doors were shut. But does that imply that Jesus was just spirit and did not have a physical body?

You have a good point here. The scripture does not spell out that Jesus went thru the wall, correct. However, what are you left with? Did an invisible Jesus walk in and then manifest Himself in His ON-cross body?

The use of flesh and blood in this verse refers to carnal man. Man cannot get to heaven unless he has been cleansed of sin, and is spiritual.as Paul used the term spiritual in these verses:

You are making a bit of a strech here. Flesh and blood is mortal man alright, but to say that that means it is a man flushed of sin is incorrect. Saddem Hussien is flesh and blood, Uday and Sicko are Saddam's flesh and flood but in any form yu want to use the phrase it does not mean cleansed of sin.
In corintians :
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

This means the living can not inherit the kingdom of God , the imperishable can not go into the kingdom of God, they must die first to become other than flesh and blood and other than perishable.

Every eye will see Him:
Rev 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
This is not describing an 'invisable 'event or an 'invisable' Lord - but a very visable Lord.

In fact this was so visible that it would be like the lighning in the west being visible in the east...or visa versa.

It is definately not an invisible Lord to the seer is it? It says very clearly that evey eye will see Him.

What if Jesus did a ressurrection of all the dead that had died up until His parousia? Would every eye that had died before the parousia SEE Jesus as He past judgment and resurrected them. Then if Jesus has to make everyone who dies after the parousia aware of their judgement (Hebrews 9:27)...wouldn't every eye that ever lives from the time of that parousia onward see Jesus as well?

You see nowhere does it ever say that Jesus sees all these people at the same time. Contrary to that it shows many different times when people would see HIM.

But that is a cop-out - a rationalization to explain why the entire early church apparently missed the fact that the Second Coming had occurred!
They were still looking for it!

Well, I wouldn't use that argument against a preterist because it only shows that you haven't grasped what the preterist believes. Preterists are saying that the destruction of Jerusalem or the rebellion of Judea in the 60''s and 70's IS the great tribulation. The early christians who lived during that time would not have seen the two witnesses , the man of lawlessness or the abomination.
A preteist would be quick to point out that His followers were told to flee from Judea.

I Cor. 15:46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

Yes, we are born as natural beings, and reborn spiritually when we are regenerated by the washing of the Holy Spirit. If we are in Christ, we are joint heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17) and will be glorified like Him as in raised to a glorified, imperishable body.

Let's look at this being reborn at the time of recieving of the Holy Spirit.

Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit does not a spiritual body make. It may make a person spiritual inclined, but it doesn't create a spiritual body as described in 1 Cor15.

As I have pointed out before the spiritual body has the following qualities.

It is immortal
It is imperishable
it is raised in glory
it is like the angels in heaven

The body we live in until physical death has none of these qualities. The spiritual body and what it looks like is not known to us, but we know it is not the earthly body because that returns to the dust.
It is the body we inherit or are born into AFTER the natural earthly body physically dies. The very verse you quoted prohibits the commencement of 'life' in the spiritual body PRIOR to the death of the physical or natural or earthly body.

He ascended in a glorified, imperishable physical body, which is why Paul wrote this:

Was this 'physical' body the equivelent of the earthly body described in 1 Corintians 15?

Christ ascended to heaven in a glorified physcial body...and will return to earth as a glorifed man/God.

Jesus has already been to earth as a glorified man.

No, we don't think the same, Justme. That isn't the first resurrection. Or the Second coming. You think it is. That the spirit lives after death is not new since Christ was resurrected. The first resurrection involves being "made alive" - the Greek word meaning made warm. It is physical. It occurs after the second coming which is shown in Rev. 19.

The above is about the going to Heaven at death that both of us say is biblical.

It isn't a resurrection....Well, to die and then be brought back to eternal life is a resurrection.

That the spirit lives after death is not new since Christ was resurrected.....

Yes, it most definately is. That is what Christianity is all about, the main thrust of the story, the reason Jesus came , the reason Jesus will return a second time. Without Jesus , His work on the cross, people would lie in the dust concious of nothing ., they would continue to sleep in the dust as they had before as it so clearly says in Daniel 12:1-3, John 5:25-29, 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:51. WE will not ALL sleep is the mystery of God at the last trump. Sleep is dead period it is not just the earthly body dead and aware of nothing it is the whole being...aware of nothing. Gone.

It is at the last trump, the parousia or the coming of the son of man on the clouds when this comes into force, when the kingdom of God is completely established or the kingdom of Heaven if you prefer.

Besides Jesus Himself said nobody has ever gone to Heaven.

John 3
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

So there was no heaven bound peope bfore Christ's time.

The first resurrection involves being "made alive" - the Greek word meaning made warm. It is physical. It occurs after the second coming which is shown in Rev. 19.

Made alive....made warm ...where do you get this from..?

No, it is not physical , it occurs in Heaven where there are no physical things, everything is spiritual, eternal and invisible to mortal man.

I bet there is a new reader here today and once again I will biblically prove beyond a scripture of a doubt that the 1000 year reign is not on earth.

The first resurrection involves the people described in Rev 20: 4and 6. That resurrection HAS TO END before the REST of the DEAD can be raised. Rev20:5.

This rest of the dead has to include people like Daniel who is dead. Daniel is also referred to as one who sleeps. All those who sleep, the REST of the DEAD must be raised before any alive at the time of the parousia.
That makes those who are alive at the parousia after those who sleep and those who sleep are AFTER the first resurrection. See where the parousia is...way up there a couple of raisings AFTER the 1000 year reign with Christ.

Where is Christ before HIs parousia? IN heaven at the right hand of the Father. So if there is a first resurrection and 1000 year reign with Christ it has to be where Christ is and Christ is in Heaven not on earth.
So this is an important point concerning views of eschatology. If this 1000 year reign is not on earth it throws out a lot of eschatological views as hopeless and totally incorrect.

Let's see some direct feedback on this area.

Justme

Bulldog · Jul 27, 2004

Hi FreeinChrist,

Both of these ideas do not truly fit scripture

Could you explian? After all, Christ did use oikoumene, used to express the inhabited world, not the entire world.

And Paul did say that the gospel had "come to you, as it has also in all the world".

FreeinChrist · Jul 28, 2004

I'll try this again...had written a rather long response last night and the site went offline as I was doing it, so it was lost.

Justme said:
Hi Free,

I'll show you one more reason...Jesus has not appeared to me to bring my salvation and Jesus said He would.

Note:
The bible never uses the term second coming, that is a term we have conjured up.

You quoted this verse elsewhere..Hebrew 9
.....and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation.....

Jesus has not appeared the second time to me yet. He appeared the first time in the stories told by the biblical writers. This is not the same as saying "it didn't happen(back then)" this is from my personal experience and personal knowledge, He has not appeared to me a second time.

I know Jesus appears to me a second time as well because He makes me aware of my judgment. OR I'm guessing it is Him that makes me aware of the judgment because He is the one who judges.

But you have been saved spiritually, if you believe and received the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our future inheritance as a child of God. Christ came the first time to make salvation available to the world:

Jhn 12:46

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Jhn 12:47

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

He will come a second time for the purpose of judgment of the wicked, not salvation from sin. That is the meaning of this:

Hbr 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In this same verse is the use of the word Greek word deuteros which can be translated again, but mostly means seond.. It is the Greek word that the word duet comes from.

I am made aware of that judgment after my death:
27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Meaning after death death, there is no ability to change one's mind about Christ and receive salvation from sin. Christians will face the judgment seat of Christ, and will receive or not receive rewards. For if we fare in Christ, there is no condemnation (Romans 8:1).

1. The gospel has not been spread to all nations. (Preterists will try and tell you that the "world" Jesus was talking about was just the known world of the Roman Empire and use a statement of Paul's to imply that the gospel had been preached to all the world by 62 AD ( or 64). Many will also claim the Great Commission was just for reaching the Jews. Both of these ideas do not truly fit scripture).

the "world' Jesus was talking about was ' [size=-1]oikoumene' and one of the meanings of that Greek word is "[/size]the inhabited earth" a) the portion of the earth inhabited by the Greeks, in distinction from the lands of the barbarians

b) the Roman empire, all the subjects of the empire

There are other meanings as well, but it would appear that the preterists have a valid point here if they can find other verses to reconcile.

The statement you refer to by Paul is the following:
Col 1
.....the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

'''the gospel that ..HAS BEEN proclaimed... It would appear the preterist have a valid point here also.

I disagree on 2 points.
First, while the word ' [size=-1]oikoumene' can mean the Roman world, it can also mean the entire inhabited world. Also, it is not the word Jesus used here:[/size]
Act 1:8

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The Greek word for earth used here is ge, which means the entire earth as distinguished from the skies and heavens. It means this in at least 14 verses. Like here:

Mat 16:19

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth (ge) shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth (ge) shall be loosed in heaven.

Taking this verse, which uses ge with the other verses that teach the Great commission, I believe it is meant for all nations of the entire globe.

The second point I disagree with is with the interpretation of Paul's statement about the gospel being preached to evey creature. This is one place where I beleive the NASB does a better job:

Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
The Greek word for proclaimed, kerusso,can mean preached...but it also means to proclaim, as a herald or an announcement. Christ's resurrection was a proclamation to angels, demons, and all..but not all have heard it.
In light of the use of 'ge' in Acts 1 and His desire to reach the whole (untermost) earth, I disagree that preterists have a point in this at all.

From within the above quote:

Matthew 10
5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

I assume the preterist have taken the message from here and again it would be a valid point.

Again I disagree that they have a valid point. These instructions were given while Jesus was still doing His ministry on earth, and they were sent out on missions during that time within the Jewish (nonSamaritan) community. It is taking them out of context to try and apply them to the Great Comission, given just before He ascended. God had always intended salvation to come to the Gentiles:
Isa 49:6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

Peter was shown early on that they were to reach the Gentiles (Acts 10), too, and that was about the time Paul had converted. Obviously the known roman world had not been reached for Christ by that time.

It is late here and I need to let my daughter get to sleep, so I will need to finish up tomorrow.

ikester · Jul 28, 2004

Matt...24...v..26...Behold he is in the desert...go not forth...he is in the Secret chambers..believe it not......For as lightning cometh out of the east..and shineth even unto the west....so shall also the coming of the Son of man be......

the SECRET CHAMBER is the preterist view........Jesus made it understood...when he returns you'll know it......without a doubt.........

FreeinChrist · Jul 28, 2004

Here it is necessary for me to illustrate the difference between the coming of the son of man on the clouds and the second coming or the appearing a second time to bring salvation. The coming on the clouds is the event immediately after the great tribulation. Let's say that the great tribulation starts next week and the coming on the clouds is what? 3 1/2 years after that or 7 years, whatever...That is the parousia and that is when those alive at that parousia are raised to meet Jesus in the air.1 Thess 4:13-18. Then as the planet continues on after that, people are judged and raised at their death as it says in Rev 14:13.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

Well, I disagree here to a point again, because Christ came to provide salvation at His fist coming, provided by His death and resurrection. We are saved (if we believe, etc) and when we are bodily resurrected, we will be glorified.

I also disagree that Rev. 14 shows the Second Coming spoken of in Hebrews 9:28. Revelation 14:9 - 11 warns against taking the mark of the beast and what will result if one does, and then vs. 12-13 speaks of the saints. 13) Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on that is abut those that are beheaded for refusing the mark not about those who live after the Second Coming. Then in chapter 14 we see the reapers. One is like the son of man and reaps with a sharp sickle. But there is also another reaping with a sharp sickle and those that he reaps are thrown into the great wine press of the wrath of God. This isnt a coming of Christ.

The Second Coming of Christ is shown in Rev. 19, and is followed by the defeat f of the beast and the false prophet, the chaining of Satan, and the resurrection of the saints who had been beheaded for refusing the mark, etc. First resurrection likely refers to a resurrection to life with Christ (as opposed to the second death).

I had asked how you felt "every eye would see Him" and maybe you have addressed that already.

Exactly how can everyone see Him if He comes again to the earth? I dont know. I only know that is what scripture says and that God is capable of doing just that.

Actually Jesus WAS granted to be visible to certain people, meaning that to others He would be invisible. As well, at certain times Jesus became invisible to the people who also saw Him visibly at other times. What does all this mean...I don't know. However, to ignore the invisibility and insist only on the present and totally physical things would be wrong. To say that Jesus had a glorified body is very true, but He had that glorification from before as we see here:

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

You are using visable and invisable as if He was spirit, then man, then spirit thenbut as I already stated, the verse in Acts 10 about Christ being made visable to select menthat simply means that only select men were shown that He had been physically resurrected. You seem to be putting more in that verse than is due. Especially if you believe that He will returned invisable and that is why no one saw Him. If every eye will see Himthen He wont be invisable aka not in His glorified physical body.

Yes the resurrected body is imperishable, immortal, glorious, and it is a heavenly body. He appeared in the same body He died in to Thomas and others. To some He stood in front of He was invisible, to some He ate with He suddenly become invisible. Invisible is no big deal for God, but for mortal man it is a different story. .

No, not invisible, He suddenly wasnt even there. Remember that Phillip was suddenly taken from the presence of the Ethiopian by God. He wasnt made invisible, but removed to another place altogether.

The monstrous key to this is that we do not compare our resurrection with that of Jesus Christ. Yes, Jesus rose from the dead, Jesus was the firstborn of the dead, but if we want to know about our resurrection body, that is in 1 Cor 15:35 to 58. Jesus was God, Jesus was a spirit before He was a man, Jesus was invisible in the universe before He was visible as a man, Jesus was glorified before He died, Jesus was special, common mankind is not.
Nothing in tha biblical explanation of our resurrection body would indicate anything physical or natural. To the contrary these verses spell out the spiritual heavenly body for mankind. Heavenly as opposed to earthly and the heavenly comes AFTER the earthly.

Yes, actually we ARE to compare our resurrection to that of Jesus in regards to our physical resurrection. We are joint-heirs with Him. Jesus was the first fruits of the resurrection (firstborn of creation I bit different). firstfruits means there will be more. Jesus was God before the Incarnation, and He rose as 100% God/100% glorified man. I have studied I Corinthians 15 along with all scripture that affects our resurrectionand am convinced that Christ returns as a glorified man?100% God and that we are raised in glorified physical bodies that are imperishable and immortal. I already gave you scripture to back that up and dealt with the scripture you had already given.

[quote}
You have a good point here. The scripture does not spell out that Jesus went thru the wall, correct. However, what are you left with? Did an invisible Jesus walk in and then manifest Himself in His ON-cross body? [/quote]

I have already addressed this. I also brought up Phillip. How is it that Phillip, who was in an earthly mortal body, was suddenly gone from the presence of the Ethiopian and in another location altogether? God moved him bodily. Dont you think that Jesus, who is 100% God and 100% glorified man could do the same?

I really think you are obsessing on the invisiblity stuff.

You are making a bit of a strech here. Flesh and blood is mortal man alright, but to say that that means it is a man flushed of sin is incorrect. Saddem Hussien is flesh and blood, Uday and Sicko are Saddam's flesh and flood but in any form yu want to use the phrase it does not mean cleansed of sin.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me? Paul uses flesh and blood to refer to carnal man that is sinful, unforgiven man. Saddam and sons have hardly been repentant, much less forgiven and cleansed from sin. It is the spiritual man that is forgiven and cleansed of sin and to be clear, it is spiritual man who has not died yet. In Galatians 6:1, Paul refers to living men who are believers as spiritual men, with you who are spiritual. I think you must have misunderstood me.

In corintians :

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

This means the living can not inherit the kingdom of God , the imperishable can not go into the kingdom of God, they must die first to become other than flesh and blood and other than perishable.

I already addressed this and said:
The use of flesh and blood in this verse refers to carnal man. Man cannot get to heaven unless he has been cleansed of sin, and is spiritual.as Paul used the term spiritual in these verses:

Galatians 6:1, I Cor. 2:14-16, Romans 1:11

In fact this was so visible that it would be like the lighning in the west being visible in the east...or visa versa.
It is definately not an invisible Lord to the seer is it? It says very clearly that evey eye will see Him.
What if Jesus did a ressurrection of all the dead that had died up until His parousia? Would every eye that had died before the parousia SEE Jesus as He past judgment and resurrected them. Then if Jesus has to make everyone who dies after the parousia aware of their judgement (Hebrews 9:27)...wouldn't every eye that ever lives from the time of that parousia onward see Jesus as well?

You see nowhere does it ever say that Jesus sees all these people at the same time. Contrary to that it shows many different times when people would see HIM.

I believe it is every eye that is living or resurrected at the time of His Second Coming. Those that died and were not in Christ are not resurrected until after the 1000 years of the Messianic kingdom. And I believe that the church returns with Him. Those that are born in the millennial kingdom will also see Him . Then we have the end of the 1000 years, and the great white throne judgment. But I believe the every eye reference has to do with all who are living when He returns. As opposed to seeing Him when each person dies.

Well, I wouldn't use that argument against a preterist because it only shows that you haven't grasped what the preterist believes. Preterists are saying that the destruction of Jerusalem or the rebellion of Judea in the 60''s and 70's IS the great tribulation. The early christians who lived during that time would not have seen the two witnesses , the man of lawlessness or the abomination.
A preteist would be quick to point out that His followers were told to flee from Judea.

But they also rely heavily on Josephus, a nonChristian Jew who was recording the war for the Flavian family and was rewarded by the Flavian family. Much that occurred in Revelation is NOT recorded by Josephus, including the Two witnesses and the earthquakes and more. That is why I believe that explanation is a cop-out.

Let's look at this being reborn at the time of recieving of the Holy Spirit.
Being indwelt with the Holy Spirit does not a spiritual body make. It may make a person spiritual inclined, but it doesn't create a spiritual body as described in 1 Cor15.

No not a spiritual body, as that is when we are physically resurrected. But it is the Holy Spirit who cleanses us from sin with the washing of regeneration and Who is given to us as a pledge of our future inheritance. WE are spiritually saved at that timewe are physically raised to glorified bodies later.

As I have pointed out before the spiritual body has the following qualities.

It is immortal
It is imperishable
it is raised in glory
it is like the angels in heaven

Angels are created beings. Spiritualbut have bodies. They cannot be in more than one place at a timethey are not omnipresent. Read Daniel 10:10-14.

The body we live in until physical death has none of these qualities.

Correct.

The spiritual body and what it looks like is not known to us, but we know it is not the earthly body because that returns to the dust. It is the body we inherit or are born into AFTER the natural earthly body physically dies. The very verse you quoted prohibits the commencement of 'life' in the spiritual body PRIOR to the death of the physical or natural or earthly body.

Mary recognized the resurrected Lord once she heard and turned to Him. On the road to Emmaus, the disciples did not recognize Him because their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him until later at the table. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him (vs. 31). He is the firstfruits.

How do you explain this:

Mat 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mat 27:53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

FreeinChrist · Jul 28, 2004

Was this 'physical' body the equivelent of the earthly body described in 1 Corintians 15?

I aleady wrote that it was an imperishable glorified bodywhat do you mean by equivalent?

Jesus has already been to earth as a glorified man.

Not exactly. He was God (John1:1) and He became the Incarnation, taking on the nature of man, and was glorified as God/man in His resurrection.

I believe you referred to this verse earlier:
Jhn 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
This indicates that as the Incarnation, He hadnt been glorified yet.

FreeinChrist · Jul 28, 2004

Justme said:
The above is about the going to Heaven at death that both of us say is biblical.

It isn't a resurrection....Well, to die and then be brought back to eternal life is a resurrection.

That the spirit lives after death is not new since Christ was resurrected.....

Yes, it most definately is. That is what Christianity is all about, the main thrust of the story, the reason Jesus came , the reason Jesus will return a second time. Without Jesus , His work on the cross, people would lie in the dust concious of nothing ., they would continue to sleep in the dust as they had before as it so clearly says in Daniel 12:1-3, John 5:25-29, 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 1 Cor 15:51. WE will not ALL sleep is the mystery of God at the last trump. Sleep is dead period it is not just the earthly body dead and aware of nothing it is the whole being...aware of nothing. Gone.

I diagree that no spirits lived on after physical death before Christ's resurrection. Otherwise Christ would not have referred to Abrahams bosom as He did. And He didn't tell fairy tales type of things.

What was changed with Christ's death and resurrection is that the OT saints could then receive spiritual salvation and go to heaven (as opposed to 'Abrahams bosom'), and that we go to heaven spiritualy when we die, and the resurrection of the flesh to a glorified body.
You are right that no one went to heaven before Christ...and I didn't say they did.

The purpose of the Second coming coming is to glorify God and it is for judgment on the wicked.

It is at the last trump, the parousia or the coming of the son of man on the clouds when this comes into force, when the kingdom of God is completely established or the kingdom of Heaven if you prefer.

Besides Jesus Himself said nobody has ever gone to Heaven.

John 3

13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.

So there was no heaven bound peope bfore Christ's time.

There were heaven bound people...but they could not go until Christ took them. He was the firstfruits.
I didn't say that anyone went to heaven before Christ. Abraham's bosom is not heaven.

Made alive....made warm ...where do you get this from..?

No, it is not physical , it occurs in Heaven where there are no physical things, everything is spiritual, eternal and invisible to mortal man.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Greek word here is zao and means 'to be warm, to have life, be alive. Zao does need to be taken in context. In this verse, it is is an indicative verb - not continuous action.

I bet there is a new reader here today and once again I will biblically prove beyond a scripture of a doubt that the 1000 year reign is not on earth.

The first resurrection involves the people described in Rev 20: 4and 6. That resurrection HAS TO END before the REST of the DEAD can be raised. Rev20:5.

This rest of the dead has to include people like Daniel who is dead. Daniel is also referred to as one who sleeps. All those who sleep, the REST of the DEAD must be raised before any alive at the time of the parousia.
That makes those who are alive at the parousia after those who sleep and those who sleep are AFTER the first resurrection. See where the parousia is...way up there a couple of raisings AFTER the 1000 year reign with Christ.

Where is Christ before HIs parousia? IN heaven at the right hand of the Father. So if there is a first resurrection and 1000 year reign with Christ it has to be where Christ is and Christ is in Heaven not on earth.
So this is an important point concerning views of eschatology. If this 1000 year reign is not on earth it throws out a lot of eschatological views as hopeless and totally incorrect.

Let's see some direct feedback on this area.

Justme

I'm sorry but I disagree that you prove anything again.
The Second Coming is in Rev. 19, and He defeats the beast and the false prophet, throwing them into the lake of fire. Then:
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Rev 20:3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut {it} and sealed {it} over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead are judged on their works and face the second death...those who are in Christ already are saved from the second death, having already been justified before they even died.

As Daniel who you referred to above, I believe that those who had faith God and that he would provide the Seed as promised in Genesis 3;15 and later to Abraham, are also in Christ...and raised before the Second Coming so that they return with Him in glory.
And there is that passage in Matthew 27:52-53.

And yes, I believe the 1000 years is on earth. It will be the fulfillment of a number of prophecies.
One point about the 1000 years is that Satan is chained and unable to deceive the nations....and I sure can't tell from history that Satan has not been active in this world.

Justme · Jul 28, 2004

Hi Free,

I diagree that no spirits lived on after physical death before Christ's resurrection.

Well then why did Paul tell us no one would sleep after the PAROUSIA, that is a quite a while after the resurrection. Those who SLEEP are raised somewhere at the time of the great tribulation, Daniel 12:1-3. You have told me you believe that this happens or that occurs to rationalize away verses like Daniel 12:1-3, but believing something just doesn't make it true.

Daniel 12:
.....There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then......

The above is describing a time in the future when there will be a great tribulation. This is an event when God pours out His wrath on certain nations...nations not meaning countries or all countries of the universe, but nations or tribes and specifically the people described in Matthew 23.

Daniel 12
But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

At the time of that great tribulation Daniels people will be resurrected from the dead. In the above verse it looks like it is the good people who are being talked about.

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Now it is talking about good and bad.......
There are many people sleeping in the dust. They are dead, they are aware of nothing they can't hear anything. They only sleep in the dust. The physical body is physically dead, the soul , the inner man, the immortal soul SLEEPS. Some of those who sleep will awake to everlasting heavenly life and some will awake to start a new life in Hell.

Daniel 12
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Daniel was told to carry on until he died. After Daniel died he would rest...sleep in the dust...until at the end of the days he will rise to recieve His inheritence. That inheritance is eternal life. In Daniel's day the inheritance of eternal life wasn't available because Jesus had not come to establish the kingdom of Heaven which would last forever and ever.

The end of the days , the last days, the time of the end, that is when this happens . Those who sleep will be in a resurrection at the time of the great tribulation. That great tribulation is just before the parousia. Is that not what Paul tells us as well.
1 THESS 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

The coming there is the greek word parousia. Those who have fallen asleep there are Daniel and friends. Daniel 12 talks about being raised at the time of the great tribulation and this verse states exactly the same thing. This is about as biblically cut and dried as anything ever gets. This is a biblical slam dunk.

I think the big problem here is that you think the spiritual body begins when you have the born again experience and it doesn't. The spiritual body does not begin until AFTER the physical earthly body is dead. That earthly physical body rots in the dirt and stays rotted.

Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all retuRN

The earthly body returns to dust, we have seen this where a dead animal eventual rots to nothing..returns to the dust. A human physical body eventually does the same. The spirit or inner man or the immortal soul lives on. Well, it does live on from the time of the last trump forward....

I tell you a mystery , we shall not all sleep.....

2 Cor 5
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

If this earthly body is destroyed we have a heavenly body. That heavenly body will live eternally in Heaven. There is no time after eternity to live anywhere else, Heaven is where the righteous stay. How can they possibly return to earth to reunite with a physical body if they will stay in heaven eternally? ETERNAL HOUSE IN HEAVEN.

You mention that certain spirits lived on before Christ ascended, etc. Sure angels of God appeared to Abraham, Issaic and Jacob's wife and on and on. But Daniel didn't and Daniel's people didn't, they physically died and remain sleeping in the dust until the time of 1 Thess 4:15.

The Second Coming is in Rev. 19, and He defeats the beast and the false prophet, throwing them into the lake of fire. Then:

You are basing this on the fact that chapter 19 is before 20 so all the things in 20 happen after 19. Should be sound in most cases, but not here. As I said the second coming is in chapter 14, 19, and still hasn't happened in the last three verses of the book. Order of placement means nothing. I think I have shown before that John looks up and sees Heaven OPEN in rev 4:1, then after being told this story by an angel and watching things go on in heaven, John actually watches HEAVEN OPEN 15 chapters later. Go figure.
Chapter 19 is the LEAVING of Jesus more so than the coming. Read it again, it is the story of what John sees as Jesus prepares to leave Heaven to ride the white horse which turns into the white cloud to meet the people in the air.

Rev 20 is back in Heaven again.

As Daniel who you referred to above, I believe that those who had faith God and that he would provide the Seed as promised in Genesis 3;15 and later to Abraham, are also in Christ...and raised before the Second Coming so that they return with Him in glory.

Here again it is your choice to believe as you wish for sure. Daniel is one of those who SLEEP. Yes, they are raised before the second coming and we know this because those alive at the parousia will not PRECEDE those who sleep. So now that you have seen that these are before the second coming, then you only have to come to grips with Rev 20:5. That shows us that the 'first' resurrection is over before any of the REST of the DEAD are raised. That necessarily places that before the parousia as well. Meaning that the 1000 year reign with Christ is BEFORE the parousia and BEFORE the parousia Christ is in Heaven. The 1000 year reign WITH Christ can not be anywhere else but in Heaven....not on earth.

I have to start a new post,

Justme

Justme · Jul 28, 2004

Hi Free,

But you have been saved spiritually, if you believe and received the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our future inheritance as a child of God. Christ came the first time to make salvation available to the world:

I have been saved spiritually. No, I may have been judged already and will be granted the reward of a spiritual existance after physical death, but He hasn't told me yet because that is made known after death. I wouldn't say I have been saved spiritually, but I understand how others feel that way.

The Holy spirit is the comforter, and:

2 Cor 1
21Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

My guess here is that God put this guarantee there, but man's free will can reject the whole thing.

Jesus came the first time to pay for man's sin, to atone for Adam's wrongs. He comes the second time to BRING salvation. The first time He did make salvation available, but the second time is to BRING salvation. Or to provide the reward of eternal life to the worthy.

Hebrews 9 NIV
28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

He will come a second time for the purpose of judgment of the wicked, not salvation from sin. That is the meaning of this:

As I showed above this is biblically incorrect. Jesus comes a second time to BRING salvation. He judges the wicked , but He judges the righteous also.

I disagree on 2 points.
First, while the word ' [size=-1]oikoumene' can mean the Roman world, it can also mean the entire inhabited world. Also, it is not the word Jesus used here:[/size]

Well, it need not be the word He used there either. Because He used oikoumene which can mean only the local area it has significance.

You chose to use this particular meaning to a certain Greek word, the preterist choses another one...that kind of thing really proves nothing. It is if scripture agrees with scripture.

Peter was shown early on that they were to reach the Gentiles (Acts 10), too, and that was about the time Paul had converted. Obviously the known roman world had not been reached for Christ by that time.

So what did God have them include those verses for?

Jesus told them to go..
Matthew 10
6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'

Do you deny Jesus said exactly that?

Paul wrote that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven...

Do you deny that?

Why did God have them write this if it "Obviously the known roman world had not been reached for Christ by that time"

So God gave Paul the wrong information, no, I don't think so. The more probable answer is that it doesn't say what you think it says. The area that God meant when He had Matthew say this:

Matthew 24
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Was the area covered when Paul said this:
Col 1
23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

To attempt to show that God was wrong is a argument I won't buy. It was God who guided the writing of the Book.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me? Paul uses flesh and blood to refer to carnal man that is sinful, unforgiven man. Saddam and sons have hardly been repentant, much less forgiven and cleansed from sin. It is the spiritual man that is forgiven and cleansed of sin and to be clear, it is spiritual man who has not died yet. In Galatians 6:1, Paul refers to living men who are believers as spiritual men, with you who are spiritual. I think you must have misunderstood me.

I think there is a lot of confusion in the terms. Mother Teresa was a spiritual person, she worked in helping not only the physical needs of people , but also their spiritual needs. Spiritual...or religious( I use the word religious with caution). I don't mean that kind of spirituality, I mean the real thing. I mean the spiritual Heavenly body that follows the physical earthly body, the immortal soul that lives forever in the eternal life promised since the beginning of time and made available by the work of Jesus Christ.
I mean the spiritual life' that follows the earthly life, I mean that etermnal life in the house in Heaven when the earthly tent is destroyed. That is the final spiritual situation, it has little to do with earthly body experience other than to believe in Christ. That is what I mean when I say spiritual.

I also disagree that Rev. 14 shows the Second Coming spoken of in Hebrews 9:28.

Rev 14 is the story as told to John and shown to John from an angelic point of view.

Verses 14 to 20 talk of the harvest of the earth and talks of the coming on a cloud.

That is the parable of the weeds:
Matthew 13
36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

The harvest is the end of the age and that is what is in Rev 14:14-20. That is the coming on the clouds as it says so clearly in verse 14, this was also the wrath or the great tribulation, and just before John sees all this John says this:

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

Blessed are those who believe that DIE FROM NOW ON. That is people who physical die AFTER the parousia. It is not any who died before the parousia because 1 Thess 4:15 prohibits that...it is people who die AFTER the parousia.

Justme
[size=-1][/size]

Justme · Jul 28, 2004

Hi Ikester,

the SECRET CHAMBER is the preterist view........Jesus made it understood...when he returns you'll know it......without a doubt.........

I am not familiar with any preterist view about a secret chamber.

Yes, Jesus will make it known to all. It will be very obvious and every eye will see Him , even those who pierced Him.

Yet:

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.

If anybody tells you they saw Jesus, they say where Jesus is...you can not believe it. In other words if you hear that Jesus is in the inner room it is a lie. No one will ever say Jesus is back.

Can you provide a logical reason for that? Jesus returns but nobody says anything about it, how come?

Mark makes it a lot more clear that it is at THAT time that he is talkin about when he records this:
21At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ !' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.

How can it be that every eye SEES Jesus and not one person can say that "there He is." If someone does say "there He is" it can not be believed , therefore it is not true any time that is said.

Think about it. There is only one answer,

Justme

FreeinChrist · Jul 29, 2004

Justme said:
Free: I diagree that no spirits lived on after physical death before Christ's resurrection.

Well then why did Paul tell us no one would sleep after the PAROUSIA, that is a quite a while after the resurrection. Those who SLEEP are raised somewhere at the time of the great tribulation, Daniel 12:1-3. You have told me you believe that this happens or that occurs to rationalize away verses like Daniel 12:1-3, but believing something just doesn't make it true.

Daniel 12:
.....There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then......

The above is describing a time in the future when there will be a great tribulation. This is an event when God pours out His wrath on certain nations...nations not meaning countries or all countries of the universe, but nations or tribes and specifically the people described in Matthew 23.

Daniel 12
But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered.

At the time of that great tribulation Daniels people will be resurrected from the dead. In the above verse it looks like it is the good people who are being talked about.

Daniel 12
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Now it is talking about good and bad.......
There are many people sleeping in the dust. They are dead, they are aware of nothing they can't hear anything. They only sleep in the dust. The physical body is physically dead, the soul , the inner man, the immortal soul SLEEPS. Some of those who sleep will awake to everlasting heavenly life and some will awake to start a new life in Hell.

? I am writing about spirits living after death before Christ's resurrection...and you are discussing that no one sleeps AFTER the Second Coming in reponse? hmmm. Not sure why you made this leap.

As I have argued before, Justme, Daniel got this prophecy about 600 years before Christ, and the Revelation was given to John in 95 AD....and I believe that God progressively revealed His plan. I see no problem between Daniel 12 and 1000 years between the Second Coming of Christ in regards to my views of resurrection.

AND sleeping in the dust is a phrase for physical death. Doesn't mean the spirit is unconscious. What you are describing is soul sleep - a belief held by the 7th Day Adventists.
But I notice you aren't even addressing what I wrote about Abraham's bosom....do you really think Jesus just made that up?

When Stephen died, he cried out,"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" - did the parousia happen between Christ's ascension and Stephen's martyrdom?

Discussing the belief of soul sleep really is not a topic for this forum, or this thread. Address the 2 situations I gave above - and I had given the Abraham's bosom one twice before already.

And actually, no - we are not told there will be no death after the Second Coming. Those that die during the millennial reign will be thought accursed.
And also, Satan is let loose at the end of the 100 years, and those that join with him are destroyed...and then they will face the great white throne judgment.

Daniel 12
13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Daniel was told to carry on until he died. After Daniel died he would rest...sleep in the dust...until at the end of the days he will rise to recieve His inheritence. That inheritance is eternal life. In Daniel's day the inheritance of eternal life wasn't available because Jesus had not come to establish the kingdom of Heaven which would last forever and ever.

He was told to go with his life, and we know that about 600 years later Christ paid the price for sin, and Daniel was finally 'saved' spiritually...and will be physically resurrected at the "end of days" - the endtimes.

I know you really want to make the resurrection fo the good and bad to be the exact same time...but you also have to harmonize with Revelation 20...and how events are laid out there. You also have to harmonize with Jesus's story of Abraham's bosum and Stephen and more. AND then you have to try and show it was way back when.....in the the first century. I don't buy it.

The end of the days , the last days, the time of the end, that is when this happens . Those who sleep will be in a resurrection at the time of the great tribulation. That great tribulation is just before the parousia. Is that not what Paul tells us as well.
1 THESS 4
15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

The coming there is the greek word parousia. Those who have fallen asleep there are Daniel and friends. Daniel 12 talks about being raised at the time of the great tribulation and this verse states exactly the same thing. This is about as biblically cut and dried as anything ever gets. This is a biblical slam dunk.

No it is NOT the slam dunk you think...as you avoid most of my points in the previous posts.
While I like to think that Daniel's people are resurrected with the church...they may be later. Paul is writing to a church. The prophecy given to Daniel was for Daniel's people.

And Christ is not pictured as coming to the ground in I Thes. but we are going up to Him...that is not the Second Coming....despite the use of the word parousia.

I think the big problem here is that you think the spiritual body begins when you have the born again experience and it doesn't. The spiritual body does not begin until AFTER the physical earthly body is dead. That earthly physical body rots in the dirt and stays rotted.

PLEASE read my posts more carefully Justme! This is the second post in a row where you have mistaken my beliefs and what I said and misrepresented them.
NO - I DO NOT BELIEVE THE SPIRITUAL BODY BEGINS AT THE BORN AGAiN EXPERIENCE...IT BEGINS WHEN WE ARE RESURRECTED PHYSICALLY. wHEN WE ARE BORN AGAIN, WE RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO CLEANSES US FROM SIN - THE WASHING OF REGENERATION...WE ARE THEN SAVED SPIRITUALLY...JUSTIFIED, AND WILL RBE PHYSICALLY RAISED (REDEEMED) LATER.

Please do not get offended by this, Justme, but I truly believe that rather than focus on reusrrection and the Second coming, you need to start all over again and review what is salvation, justification, redemption, sanctification and glorification. You seem to need to learn more about the first coming before being so focused on the Second. AND it would help if you learn about body, soul and spirit and how they relate to each other in scripture.

For clarification - the spiritual body starts at our resurrection from the dead.
However, when we die, our spirits go to Christ if we are in Him. When we believe and accept His gift, and receive the Holy Spirit, we are spiritually reborn - and our spirits are one with Christ. Paul refers to those who are in Christ as "spiritual" men.
Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all retuRN

The earthly body returns to dust, we have seen this where a dead animal eventual rots to nothing..returns to the dust. A human physical body eventually does the same. The spirit or inner man or the immortal soul lives on. Well, it does live on from the time of the last trump forward....

Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Spirit lives while body dies and do to dust.....yet:

Job 19:25 For I know [that] my redeemer liveth, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:

Job 19:26 And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; [though] my reins be consumed within me.

Job 19:28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?

Job 19:29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath [bringeth] the punishments of the sword, that ye may know [there is] a judgment.

I think we will go round and round with this Justme...but you haven't dealt with the points I had already made, nor explained what Jesus taught about 'Abraham's bosom'.

You are basing this on the fact that chapter 19 is before 20 so all the things in 20 happen after 19.

No, I am basing it on years of inductive Bible study of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah, I and II thes. etc....and noting ALL the time references in Revelation. I beleive the NASB is more accurate with the use of "then" in places where KJV used "and".

Order of placement means nothing. I think I have shown before that John looks up and sees Heaven OPEN in rev 4:1, then after being told this story by an angel and watching things go on in heaven, John actually watches HEAVEN OPEN 15 chapters later. Go figure.

It is not difficult to understand if you take the verses in there context...and study inductively, ataking in all the details and time staements and reviewing th eGreek and realted scripture. BTW, John is not always IN heaven in his vision. Rev. 4:1 is a picture of the rapture...and what follows is "the things which must be hereafter".
John sees heaven open and the Lord descend in Rev. 19 and it is a definite Second Coming...as opposed to Rev. 14 where He is not descending at all.

Chapter 19 is the LEAVING of Jesus more so than the coming. Read it again, it is the story of what John sees as Jesus prepares to leave Heaven to ride the white horse which turns into the white cloud to meet the people in the air.

No it is is the COMING to the earth, to defeat the beast and the false prophet. And NOWHERE in Rev. 19 does His white horse turn into a white cloud! Where do you get this stuff???

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it {is} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes {are} a flame of fire, and on His head {are} many diadems; and He has a name written {on Him} which no one knows except Himself.

Rev 19:13 {He is} clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white {and} clean, were following Him on white horses.

Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Rev 19:16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God,

Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.

Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
The armies of the beast are killed by Christ...they aren't taken up to a cloud to meet Him.

Besides that, in Rev. 14, those that "die from now on" are those who refuse to take the mark of the beast or worship the beast....this places the timing as during the 42 months the beast is empowered by Satan. PRE Second Coming.

FreeinChrist · Jul 29, 2004

Justme said:
I have been saved spiritually. No, I may have been judged already and will be granted the reward of a spiritual existance after physical death, but He hasn't told me yet because that is made known after death. I wouldn't say I have been saved spiritually, but I understand how others feel that way.

"may have been judged already..." Justme, this is why I really think you should concentrate your studies on salvation and justification before worrying about the Second Coming.
If you have believed, asked for forgivensss and received the Holy spriit - you have been saved - justified. The Greek word for justified is "dikaioo" and is a legal term meaning to be declared righteous before a judge. In terms of salvation, the judge is God and that is who declares us righteous because of Jesus Christ. That is why Paul wrote there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The Holy Spirit does the cleansing:
Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.

And the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a pledge given by God of our inheritance:

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.

Jesus came the first time to pay for man's sin, to atone for Adam's wrongs. He comes the second time to BRING salvation. The first time He did make salvation available, but the second time is to BRING salvation. Or to provide the reward of eternal life to the worthy.

Hebrews 9 NIV
28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Jesus came the first time to save the world...He paid the price for our sin, and made salvation available to all who will believe in Him.
When He comes again, it isn't to save sinners, but to judge the wicked. Those who are in Christ are already saved spiritually...but the redemption of the body is also a part of salvation and this will happen in the endtimes.
But those who are not n Christ...He slays the armies of the beast and false prophet. The wrath of God is sent down in the seals, trumpets and vials.
Isa 34:8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

As I showed above this is biblically incorrect. Jesus comes a second time to BRING salvation. He judges the wicked , but He judges the righteous also.

He comes again for the purpose of judgment on the wicked, and to bring in His Messianic kingdom. I have already shown you biblically...you will believe as you wish.

Well, it need not be the word He used there either. Because He used oikoumene which can mean only the local area it has significance.

You chose to use this particular meaning to a certain Greek word, the preterist choses another one...that kind of thing really proves nothing. It is if scripture agrees with scripture.

I wish the rolling eyes smilie was still available, for it is needed here!
Happily, over the last 2000 years, the church has recognized that the Great Comission is for the whole globe!

Act 1:8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth (ge)."

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.(ge)

Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations (pas ethnos), baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
All nations (pas ethnos) is not just the Jews. It is all the nations on the earth (ge).
BTW - it is from the Greek word ethnos (nations) that we get the English word ethnic - as in ethnicity.

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations (pas ethnos), beginning at Jerusalem.

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world (kosmos), and preach the gospel to every creature (pas ktisis).
kosmos - that which pertains to space and not time, the material world
pas ktisis - all of creation - the sum total of what is created

NONE of the verses about the Great Commission contain the word oikoumene.

So what did God have them include those verses for?

Jesus told them to go..
Matthew 10
6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.'
Do you deny Jesus said exactly that?

CONTEXT, Justme, CONTEXT. Using Matthew 10 and applying to the Great Comission is an example of interpretation that ignores CONTEXT. Matthew 10 isn't about the Great Commission, but instructions regarding short missions He sent them on DURING his ministry.

Paul wrote that the gospel had been preached to every creature under heaven...
Do you deny that?

Did you even read what I wrote?? Gospel had been proclaimed to all creation....but not everyone had heard to the remotest part of the earth (ge), or in all nations (pas ethnos) of the earth (ge).

Why did God have them write this if it "Obviously the known roman world had not been reached for Christ by that time"

So God gave Paul the wrong information, no, I don't think so.

God didn't give Paul wrong information - you are simply misinterpreting it and taking things out of context. I have noticed that you have a habit of doing that.

The more probable answer is that it doesn't say what you think it says. The area that God meant when He had Matthew say this:

Matthew 24
14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Was the area covered when Paul said this:
Col 1
23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Creative interpretation...but ignores the Great Comission.
"whole world" - pas oikoumene - all the inhabited earth. It can refer to the Roman world depending on context. but it 's plain meaning is all the inhabited world.
And there is this in the verse too - testimony to all nations (pas ethnos).

later in Matthew 24:
Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth (ge) will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.Sorry but I stick with the point I made - the Second Coming has not occurred yet because the gospel has not been preached to all the nations of the earth.

To attempt to show that God was wrong is a argument I won't buy. It was God who guided the writing of the Book.

I wouldn't buy that argument either - which is why I reject preterism and their view of 70 AD, and why I believe that the Second Coming is yet future.

What I am showing is that your interpretation is wrong.

Rev 14 is the story as told to John and shown to John from an angelic point of view.

Verses 14 to 20 talk of the harvest of the earth and talks of the coming on a cloud.

It doesn't mention any coming, no more than Rev. 19 says the white horse turned into a cloud. That is putting meaning in scriture that isn't there!

Nor do I see it as a telling the story to John from an angelic point of view.

That is the parable of the weeds:
Matthew 13

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

The harvest is the end of the age and that is what is in Rev 14:14-20. That is the coming on the clouds as it says so clearly in verse 14, this was also the wrath or the great tribulation, and just before John sees all this John says this:

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

You are going around in circles. Stuck in the "Revelation 14 is the second coming" song"...but you haven't shown it at all.
The harvest is at the end of the age - but before the Second Coming of Christ.
It is clear from the text of Rev. 14 that the time of the harvest is during the 42 months of the AC up to the Second Coming. But Rev. 14 does not show Christ "coming" - He is sitting. It is in Rev. 19 that He descends - as in coming to earth.
Even the parable doesn't mention the Son of man coming to the earth - or sitting in a cloud. I thes. doesn't show any gathering by angels - just a catching up to Christ and resurrection.

Blessed are those who believe that DIE FROM NOW ON. That is people who physical die AFTER the parousia. It is not any who died before the parousia because 1 Thess 4:15 prohibits that...it is people who die AFTER the parousia.

No. That is in regards to those who die because they refuse the mark of the beast and refuse to worship the beast and his image suring the 42 month period the beast is empowered by the dragon.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

Your view ignores the textual clues.

Justme · Jul 30, 2004

Hi Free,

Paul wrote:

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Jesus had told His apostles:
Mark 16
15 And He said to them, " Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

All the nations were in Jerusalem
Acts 2
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. Colossians 1
6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;

The gospel had to be preached in all the world,oikoumene, and above are some verses to deal with. You show me biblical verses that say it wasn't preached where Jesus wanted it to be preached before the end of 'what' would come.

What was the end that would come? The end of the age....did the end of the Jewish system of things end after Christ and the cross? Did the age of sacrifice end after the time of Christ on the cross. Did a new covenant begin after Christ on the cross? The end of what?

The end of the ages is explained here:
Hebrews 9

26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

If you can show me biblical verses that say that the gospel was not preached wherever it was that Jesus wanted it preached, I will tip my hat to you indeed. I know you can't because I just pointed out verses to the opposite. I am not interested in some churches logic that they haven't got their word out to some lost soul in Tibet, I want to see biblical verses.

You asked something about Abraham's Bosum and nobody knows where that is or really how it works. It isn't heaven yet the story of the rich man and Lazurus takes place in the spiritual realm. Moses , Elijah and others went somewhere and it wasn't to Heaven. I assume it isn't important for us to know or God would have told us. John 15:15.

When He comes again, it isn't to save sinners, but to judge the wicked. Those who are in Christ are already saved spiritually...but the redemption of the body is also a part of salvation and this will happen in the endtimes.

The endtimes of what? Show me biblical verses where He is only going to judge the wicked.
The physical body returns to dust and the physical body remains as dust.

Explain this....I showed you the verse that says when your earthly tent(physical earthly body) is destroyed(physically dies) there is an eternal house(spiritual body) in Heaven....

If you are in Heaven eternally how do you come back to earth to reunite with the physical body that is six feet under and a pile of fine dust? Eternally is a really long time...like after you have been in this heaven eternally how much time is there left?

He comes again for the purpose of judgment on the wicked, and to bring in His Messianic kingdom. I have already shown you biblically...you will believe as you wish.

He comes to judge the wicked and the righteous, He establishes the kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. You constantly try to sneak in the no judging the righteous at that time ...that is wrong. Both at the same time. I'm not talking about the 'first ' resurrection of Rev 20:4 and 6 here, but the second resurrection, general resurrection or just the plain resurrection of the REST of the DEAD which are those who sleep in the dust that are raised BEFORE anyone alive at the time of the paousia.

I wish the rolling eyes smilie was still available, for it is needed here!
Happily, over the last 2000 years, the church has recognized that the Great Comission is for the whole globe!

Your conection between the events of Matthew 10 and what you are calling a great commision mean nothing. Does the 10th chapter of Matthew exist or not. If you agree that it does you must also agree with what is written in it. Does Matthew say in Chapter 24 that the gospel will be preach ed wherever and the the end will come or is that just a imaginary sentence and finally does Paul say it has been preached or not. If it says that, which it does, it is pretty hard to argue that it doesn't . I'll look in the bible one more time....yes, by golly it still says exactly that. Your excuses to omit the teaching of these verses has fallen terribly short.

CONTEXT, Justme, CONTEXT. Using Matthew 10 and applying to the Great Comission is an example of interpretation that ignores CONTEXT.

Great commission is where in the bible? I know what you mean and Matthew 10 has nothing to do with today's evangelical adventure. Matthew 10 describes an event that occured in the days of Jesus. It fits into my understanding of the bible so I don't have to change anything in the chapter. If you have to change things to get it to fit your beliefs that is your problem.

It doesn't mention any coming, no more than Rev. 19 says the white horse turned into a cloud. That is putting meaning in scriture that isn't there!

Nor do I see it as a telling the story to John from an angelic point of view.

You are trying to tell me that Rev 14 doesn't mention any coming!!!!!!?????

14I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man"with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

I pointed out the parable.......................

I sometimes wonder if you have ever actually read the bible or are you getting this from a study guide of some sort.

Justme

Justme · Jul 30, 2004

Hi Free and forum,

I have been reading back over this thread and I brought up a link from Matt Slick, I usually avoid reading Matt Slick.

This was called "Jesus Resurrection was physical"

Yet in it he has written this:
Jesus rose from the dead in the very same physical body that He died in. This resurrected body was a glorified, spiritual body.

Matt goes on to say:
The above statement is the correct doctrine of scripture.
************************************

Matt goes thru the usual senario of explaining things irrelivent and finally says this:

Therefore, we can see that our future resurrected bodies will be spiritual bodies. But, those spiritual bodies are in fact physical, the same bodies we have now, only glorified. Otherwise, there is no resurrection.

They are spiritual bodies but they are in fact physical...if anybody can go with that one , ?????????

He admits we are resurrected spiritually and even Jesus has a spiritual body, but no, we are in fact physical. We will not be physical, Jesus was physical on earth, at least at times, Jesus Himself never raised to Heaven in His earthly body, He raised in a spiritual glorified version of His body, exact condition has not been made known to us.

In the case of Jesus Christ His earthly body was gone as well, in our case the earthly body remains behind...

.... "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body,..............

It doesn't matter one iota about the word "it", The person is born a natural person , the person is raised a spiritual person. There is no way to miss the meaning of resurrection here, and it is impossible to get the sentence to say " it is sown a natural body , it is raised a NATURAL body" it just can not be done and none of the feeble attempts to do so are nothing but a hopeless attempt to justify a false religious doctrine.

The earthly body ends once and for all and the spiritual body begins and lasts forever. The mechanics of that process are not fully explained and there is no need to know them anyway. Is there some kind of physicality in Heaven? Obviously if spirits can see spirits there is a whatever kind of physiclity that they see, but what is attempted by Slick fans and others is to create a physical resurrection of the origonal physical body to earth and that is false doctrine.

Justme

FreeinChrist · Jul 30, 2004

I was wondering if you were going to respond. I had copied my responses from page 27 on to a Word document - and it came out to be 47 pages.

What I am noting in this, though, is that you are not actually addressing several of my pointsjust recycling the same stuff.

I like to address this statement of yours first and so my response will not be in:

I sometimes wonder if you have ever actually read the bible or are you getting this from a study guide of some sort.

Funny thing - I thought you were just using information off of the three preterist sites I know of.

No, I am not using a study guide but the Bible. I have been doing Inductive study for years. It is a tedious method in which one refrains from commentaries till the end of the study, and just looking at the text, context, who is saying what to whom and why, what situation is going on, ....doing overviews of the book and then chapter studies...it is very time consuming.

It is enlightening and because I have done it, I can see how people have let

dogmas and doctrines color their view of scripture, how they use scripture out of context. It is a significant problem. "Topic studies" are vulnerable to taking scripture out of context.

Your conection between the events of Matthew 10 and what you are calling a great commision mean nothing. Does the 10th chapter of Matthew exist or not. If you agree that it does you must also agree with what is written in it. Does Matthew say in Chapter 24 that the gospel will be preach ed wherever and the the end will come or is that just a imaginary sentence and finally does Paul say it has been preached or not. If it says that, which it does, it is pretty hard to argue that it doesn't . I'll look in the bible one more time....yes, by golly it still says exactly that. Your excuses to omit the teaching of these verses has fallen terribly short.

excuses to omit the teaching of these verses - you are misrepresenting what I wrote. Just like when you wrote that I thought that we received the spiritual body when we had a born again experience. Please read closer.

My point is there is no connection between Matthew 10 and the Great Commission of Acts 1:8 and Matthew 28 or Mark 16. YOU are the one trying to claim that the instructions of Matthew 10 apply to the instructions of Acts 1.

One more time: Matthew 10 is not the same moment as Acts 1:8. And the instructions differ.

Matthew 10: "Do not go in {the} way of {the} Gentiles, and do not enter {any} city of the Samaritans;

Acts 1:8

and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."

Matthew 10 has a comparable passage in Luke 9 and it has this:

Luk 9:10

When the apostles returned, they gave an account to Him of all that they had done. Taking them with Him, He withdrew by Himself to a city called Bethsaida.

Matthew 10 was about short missions around Judea during Christs earthly ministry.

Acts 1:8, Matthew 28 were about what the apostles were to do after the Ascension of Christ...and who they were to reach.

Yes, Matthew 24 says the gospel will be preached in all the world.but in light of His instruction of Acts 1:8, meaning of all the world not just the Roman world as it can be used in places, but in the whole world as in the whole earth (ge).

AND in Matthew 10, Jesus said this:

Mat 10:23

"But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish {going through} the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

If this applied to the Second Coming, then Jesus was lying when He said:

Act 1:6

So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

Act 1:7

He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;

Mat 24:36

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Now I could try to interpret this as fulfilled by 70 AD, but for several points.

One, the Great Commission would not be for us. We have no instruction from Christ to be witnesses for Him in the world. The you of

Two, if the end of the age that is in Matthew 28 is fulfilled, then this promise is not for us: and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." And then most of the NT would not be written for us.

Even Partial Preterist Kenneth Gentry has a problem with this:

Twelfth, hyper-preterism has serious negative implications for ecclesiastical labor. Is the Great Commission delimited to the pre-A. D. 70 era, due to the interpretation of "the end" by hyper-preterists ( Mt. 28:20 )? Is the Lord's Supper superfluous today, having been fulfilled in Christ's (alleged) Second Advent in A. D. 70 ( 1 Cor. 11:26 )?

QUOTE=Justme]

Paul wrote:

23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

Jesus had told His apostles:

Mark 16

15 And He said to them, " Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

All the nations were in Jerusalem

Acts 2

5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.

Colossians 1

6 which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;

The gospel had to be preached in all the world,oikoumene, and above are some verses to deal with. You show me biblical verses that say it wasn't preached where Jesus wanted it to be preached before the end of 'what' would come.

[/quote]

I already showed you an important verse that shows where Jesus wanted the gospel preached. And I already addressed the verse in Colossians.

Did you even read what I wrote?? Gospel had been proclaimed to all creation....but not everyone had heard to the remotest part of the earth (ge), or in all nations (pas ethnos) of the earth (ge).

If Colossians 1:23 means as you wish, why did Paul write this later in Colossians:

Col 4:2

Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with {an attitude of} thanksgiving;

Col 4:3

praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned;

A door for what? To speak about Christ.

What was the end that would come? The end of the age....did the end of the Jewish system of things end after Christ and the cross? Did the age of sacrifice end after the time of Christ on the cross. Did a new covenant begin after Christ on the cross? The end of what?

The OLD Covenant was broken at the death of Christ:

Mat 27:50

And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Mat 27:51

And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

And BTW, you never addressed these verses:

Mat 27:52

The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Mat 27:53

and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

The new and living way was inaugurated at the death and resurrection of Christ:

Hbr 10:19

Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

Hbr 10:20

by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,

And earlier in the same passage:

Hbr 10:14

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Hbr 10:15

And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

Hbr 10:16

"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," {He then says,}

Hbr 10:17

"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Hbr 10:18

Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer {any} offering for sin.

The Jews may have done sacrifices after His resurrectionbut the Old Covenant was broken and the New Covenant begun.

I believe Paul makes it clear in Romans and Galatians, and the writer of Hebrews makes it clear too, that the New Covenant - belief in Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to be saved, and was inaugurated at His death and resurrection.

You think God was still honoring the Old Covenant when Christ was already the mediator of a better covenant (the new one), based on better blood (His), offered in a better sanctuary (in heaven) at the mercy seat of God (His heavenly throne)?

NO. He wasnt.

Paul told us what age he and we are in:

Eph 3:1

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Eph 3:2

If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

The Dispensation of grace.before Jerusalem even fell. Or do you think that dispensation ended in 70 AD and we are no longer saved by grace?

And in the future:

Eph 1:10

That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

And Paul saw that fullness of times as a time when Israel is reconciled to God:

Rom 11:25

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

Rom 11:26

and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

Rom 11:27

"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Rom 11:28

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

Rom 11:29

for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The Jews didnt turn to Christ in 70 AD Israel was not saved!

No more than the Romans and Nero could be the beast of Rev. 13. (which hadnt been written until 96 AD!) Nero died in 68 AD, never sat in the temple of God proclaiming to be God, and the Romans were not defeated but went home victorious. Some beast. (rolling eyes)

Jesus also spoke of the fullness of the Gentiles and the disapora:

Luk 21:24

and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The diaspora took place AFTER 70 ADJerusalem has been trampled underfoot for almost 1900 years. The Second Coming has not yet occurred.

Honestly, from your view (as I see it), it seems as if the Christians of the 33 70 AD were different than us. Have the promise that Christ will be with thembut we do not? Have been charged with the Great commission but we have not? As if the Gentiles arent still the main recipients of the gospel!

conitinued....

FreeinChrist · Jul 30, 2004

The end of the ages is explained here:

Hebrews 9

26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

You should be more complete:

Hbr 9:24

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a {mere} copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Hbr 9:25

nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Hbr 9:26

Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Hbr 9:27

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this {comes} judgment,

Hbr 9:28

so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without {reference to} sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

He came once to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, and will come again a second (deuteros) time.

I am not interested in some churches logic that they haven't got their word out to some lost soul in Tibet, I want to see biblical verses.

I am not interested in some recycled arguements from some preterist websites.

You asked something about Abraham's Bosum and nobody knows where that is or really how it works. It isn't heaven yet the story of the rich man and Lazurus takes place in the spiritual realm. Moses , Elijah and others went somewhere and it wasn't to Heaven. I assume it isn't important for us to know or God would have told us.

He did tell us about it. Yes, it is in a spiritual realmas they had not been physically resurrected yet! Jesus was not making up a story.creating a fictional placeor appealing to Greek philosophy as the SDA believe (who believe soul sleep).

YOU question the idea that the spirit could be live, yet resurrection hadnt happened yet. Jesus tells us about Abrahams bosom.

Tell, Justme, if the Second Coming ws in 70 AD why didnt a single early church father ever know it? Why didnt Josephus, a nonChristian with a birds eye view, not record it?

If the first resurrection is simply a salvation experience why didnt any of the early fathers know that either? Ill quote partial preterist Gentry here again:

Clement of Rome lived through A. D. 70 and had no idea he was resurrected! He continued to look for a physical resurrection (Clement 50:3). Jude's (supposed) grandsons still sought a physical resurrection (cf. Eusebius, EH 3:24:4). Whoever these men were, they came right out of the first generation and in the land of Israel -- with absolutely no inkling of an A. D. 70 resurrection or a past second Advent. See also the Didache 10:5; 16:1ff (first century); Ignatius; Trallians 9:2; Smyrnaens 2:1; 6:1; Letter to Polycarp 3:2 (early second century); Polycarp 2:1; 6:2; 7:1. See also Papias, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr.

Explain Matthew 27:52 53.

You deny our physical resurrection, but believe that Christ rose physically.but Paul disagrees with you about our resurrection:

Phl 3:20

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Phl 3:21

who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Rom 8:23

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

Even I Cor. 15 is speaking of our resurrected body - a glorified body, referring to it as spiritual, but a body all the same. How does God do it? I dont know. Do you doubt that He is able?

1 Cor 15:23 says "Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him".

1 Cor 15:49 says "so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven".

Luke 24:37- 43 shows us Christ was raised in a glorified, physical bodyand Paul tells us we will be like Him.

So you have ANY new points?

FreeinChrist · Jul 30, 2004

Some Reasons Why the Second Coming is yet future

1. The Great Commision - the gospel has not been spread to all nations of the earth (ge).

2. Christ's Second Coming will be visable to all on the earth - "every eye will see". NO ONE in the early church, pre and post 70 AD, believed it had already happened. Nor is there is a record of it by Josephus or the any other historian...it hasn't happened yet.
The Lords second coming will be as visibly apparent as his ascension back into heaven was (Acts 1:11). Indeed, he will be revealed (2 Thes. 1:7), or appear to all (2 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 9:28).

3. The Two Witnesses have not preached from Jerusalem, been killed by the beast, and then were resurrected in sight of others and taken into heaven. Josephus did not record that an earthquake occurred in Jerusalem during 66 - 70 AD.nor mention the two witnesses and their deaths...or resurrections.

4. Zechariah 14:2-4 - The Romans went home vicotorious and Titus went on to become emperor. To claim fulfillment of this around 70 AD means that Christ didn't win against the Romans.

5. Zechariah 14:5 Has God been the only one worshipped in the last 1900 years?

And how men in that time worshipped idols and practiced sorcery? Did all the people of the world worship just God alone in 70 AD? have they ever in any time since? What about Taoism, hinduism, buddaism and all the many religions fo the world. This prophecy is not yet fulfilled.

6. Zechariah 14:11 Jerusalem has been in security? hmmm.. and there was a revolt when Hadrian outlawed circuscism in the second century. They actually succeeded in ruling themselves for about 3 years before they were conquered again. And there has never been real piece for Jews or Jerusalem over the years. Certainly isn't now.

7.

Rev 16:3

The second {angel} poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like {that} of a dead man; and every living thing in the sea died.

Don't see that this has happened ever.

Question....didn't Titus sail home? Why didn't Josephus write about the sea being all blood?

8. Mark of the beast? Image of the beast?

Rev 13:15

And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

fulfillment?

9. Earthquake of the 7th vial? According to Pliny, writing in 77 AD, the greatest earthquake ever occured in 17 AD. Made 12 important cities collapse in Asia Minor, hitiing the Sardians the worst. But even that doesn't fit the description of the 7th vial. Christ hadn't died and been resurrected yet.

10. Satan is sealed in the abyss, unable to deceive the nations for he 1000 years. When was that? Seems Satan has been active in the world. Paul refers to him as the prince of the power of the air in Ephesian. He lso refers to Satan hindering him. Were the warnings like "flee the devil", and advice to take up the full armor of God only given for those before 70 AD? Isn't it applicable now? Isn't there spiritual warfare NOW?

11. Revelation wasn't even written until 96 AD.

12. The entire early church was unaware that it had happened and looked forward to a Second Coming of Christ - in person.

13. The entire early church was unaware that they were resurrected when they became Christians. (as in first resurrection?). Paul refers to two who preached the resurrectin as having happen in a very negative light!

2Ti 2:17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

2Ti 2:18 {men} who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
14. If it had already happened, then why do we continue with the Lord's Supper - Communion:

1Cr 11:25 In the same way {He took} the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink {it,} in remembrance of Me."

1Cr 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.
more later.....

in the meantime, this is a good article:
http://www.christiancourier.com/feature/august99.htm

Justme · Jul 31, 2004

Hi Free,

If you insist on discussing the preterist view we will have to move to another forum. I am not allowed to discuss this....you can, but I can not...like how many times do I have to point this out?

I am under severe restrictions on what I can say here and you bounce merrilily along as if you are proving something because I never can respond back....sheeesh, what gives?

Justme

Justme · Jul 31, 2004

Hi Free,

Some Reasons Why the Second Coming is yet future

Didn't you like my reason? Jesus has not appeared to me a second time to bring salvation. He said He would right here:

Hebrews 9
28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ died to take away sin, He will return to bring me salvation or to take me to Heaven. I know it is in Heaven because Jesus said this:

John 14
2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

There is no biblical doubt about it. He will return to me a second time to take me to be where He is. Where is Jesus?That will do it for that post. If you want to discuss preterist stuff we have to set up a thread elsewhere.

Justme

Justme · Jul 31, 2004

Hi Free,

I want you to look thru one of your supposed arguments.

In response to a verse in Hebrews 9 that indicated the time of the end of the ages , you wrote:
You should be more complete:

Then you listed some verses and wrote:
He came once to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself, and will come again a second (deuteros) time.

**************

I guess the above is all you got out of Hebrews in those verses. Pity.

There is no wonder you have a really poor handle on what the bible actually says. You are blind to the word, you are blinded by the mindset that prohibits you from even seeing the written word. It has to be that.

The verse I put down says this:
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

That verse says what it says regardless if you read it alone or with the entire chapter. This 'context' thing is just the last resort to escape and deny what the verse actually says..Context , my eye, if I can get the meaning of the verse so can anybody else. Adding in the verses around it change absolutely nothing.

Verse 26 tells you when the end of the ages are. I asked you what the end could be...could it be the end of the covenant and you go on to explain that the end of the covenant was when Jesus was here. SO then you agree that the 'end' could have been when Jesus died or thereabouts??????Or what?

YOU question the idea that the spirit could be live, yet resurrection hadnt happened yet. Jesus tells us about Abrahams bosom.

No, at the time of the writing of say Paul or Matthew , the resurrections hadn't happened yet. Jesus flatly state that no one had gone to Heaven.

Jesus may have told you where Abraham's Bosum was, but He hasn't shown me yet.

Explain Matthew 27:52 53.

52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Some dead people were brought back to life, they even went into Jerusalem and 'appeared' to many people. The meaning of the greek word for 'appeared ' is shown as this by Strong.

1) to manifest, exhibit to view

2) to show one's self, come to view, appear, be manifest

3) to indicate, disclose, declare, make known

If this was a resurrection Paul would have no right to critisize Hymeneaus and Philates (or whoever they were) for saying the resurrection was over.

Matthew 27:50-53 does not sppeak of a resurrection.

Even I Cor. 15 is speaking of our resurrected body - a glorified body, referring to it as spiritual, but a body all the same. How does God do it? I dont know. Do you doubt that He is able?

! Yes, Free, yes indeed.!!!! However, it it is a SPIRITUAL body. A body yes, but because it is a body, that doesn't make it a PHYSICAL body because scripture specifically states it is a SPIRITUAL body.
I don't know how it is done either and don't care. Just like Matt Slick, you know that it is a SPIRITUAL body, but for whatever reason you chose to change the biblical meaning to PHYSICAL. Go ahead, but that is biblically incorrect. It is sown a natural body it is RAISED a SPIRITUAL body.

Jesus was raised form the grave and was on earth as a physical person/body/whatever when He talked to Thomas. After you and I die, we do not get up and walk around earth after three days. Jesus then went up to Heaven hidden by a cloud....Heaven is a spiritual realm, flesh and blood, natural man can not enter there.

Gotta run,

Justme

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