Stephen Hawking's Universe

Philip · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
I never said that God hands out disease. People either bring it on themselves or satan puts it on them. If you read the book of Job what does it say? Satan was the cause, but God allowed it.

What would Satan care if Hawkings does not honor God? Job was a rightous man who was afflicted to test him. I don't think you can cite Job and still claim that Hawkings's ALS is due to him not honoring God.

Hank · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
I never said that God hands out disease. People either bring it on themselves or satan puts it on them. If you read the book of Job what does it say? Satan was the cause, but God allowed it.

It is time people take a good hard look at the Bible. I am not out to win converts. But it is time to take a look at what the Bible says. Here is a good place to start:

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

I am open for any suggestion as to what people here thinks that this verse means or is refering to.

Luke 6:45b For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be justified,
and by your words you will be condemned."

Not sure if I should re-enter or not. Does that mean Satan creates sicknesses?

I am bottom line guy.

Fact is, if god created man, he created man with build in self-healing mechanisms. Those mechanisms are used by all those who are created by god. Those with positive attitudes do inadvertently expedite the self-healing process. Be it through prayer or believing in oneself but above all through proper medical attention.

There is no scientific proof of healers; in fact healers are no longer welcome in Toronto, Canada. When SARS hit, a fatal lung virus, no healer was found and those who planned to show up cancelled their visit. That shows that healers are normal human beings but with the extraordinary talent to raise money for doing nothing.

Any healer may show his/her craft in Toronto, at North York Hospital or wherever current SARS patients are dyeing from a gruesome death. Hurry so, time is running out!

As for the Bible quotes, I am an agnostic.

Proverbs
If I am lying on the street with a fatal gunshot wound, it does not matter what I think about myself. I am toast. - No one, not even Al Capone thinks about oneself so badly as to ask for sickness to enter one’s body.

Luke
If I speak from my heart, people know how I feel. How would Alzheimer know its time to fry my brain?

Matthew 12:37
Hung by your tongue. I fail to see the correlation to any healing process. Again; am I to speak to Cancer cells telling them they caught an innocent man?

In case you think I am sardonic, I am. I marvel at the intricate design of the human body, and its healing systems. The chemistry behind it is fascinating. One could say war is being carried out in my body, but not between Satan and God. God, if he actually exists, gave us as the first defense a body which can fight off most attacks. As the second defense he gave us intelligence to fight bigger and more complex sicknesses. I suggest to use both to our fullest ability.

ByGrace · Jul 19, 2003

I really hope I read your post wrong. It seems you are now saying that the guy at your "wifes" church died because he was a methodist. Since you make a point of pointing that at one point you were a methodist and now you have gotten out of it, I assume that you feel they are wrong also. Maybe you need to get the Bible out my friend. You seem to be trashing a whole part of the body of Christ. I pray I am wrong.

Siliconaut · Jul 19, 2003

@John:

So, why did my friend die? Because He did not go to the man of God to receive what God had for him.

You mean because he didn't subscribe to your murderous little sect and its guru?

With friends like you, who needs enemies? <:/

While trying to trap the unwary for your guru, do you really have to pretend to be a christian, thus besmirching millions in the process? I'm happy to say that I've never before met someone like you who called himself a christian - I simply wouldn't have believed it, and I still don't quite. Maybe you should do the honest thing and reveal your true colours, because this little game of yours has been played far too long.

JohnR7 · Jul 19, 2003

Philip said:
What would Satan care if Hawkings does not honor God? Job was a rightous man who was afflicted to test him. I don't think you can cite Job and still claim that Hawkings's ALS is due to him not honoring God.

The point is that Hawking's represents SCIENCE. He is in a way their poster child. His thinking represents science, even mainline science today. It is nice if you can put a photo of Albert Einstein out there and say this is sciece. Or even a Carl Sagan as your representive.

All I am saying is accept that. Don't try to say that his thinking represents science but his appearance does not represent science. If science was so wonderful, they would have found the cure for him. So accept it as a image of science today.

It would perhaps be nice if science had a Dorien Gray to be their poster child, but things did not turn out that way.

As far as Job, yes the Bible says he was perfect and upright before God. But he was not without sin in that he did try to justify himself rather than to justify God. When he came to realize this, then he did repent and God did restore back to him more than what he had lost.

Melange_Thief · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
By that you mean what? Only the ones who really give you God's truth instead of a pack of lies?

By troll, we mean a person who posts only to make people respond. Or, a person who posts just to set people off. John, I would call someone whose philosophy was the same as mine a troll, provided that they were trolling.

And to the second part of your post,

JohnR7 · Jul 19, 2003

Siliconaut said:
You mean because he didn't subscribe to your murderous little sect and its guru?

Do you know what Blasphemy against the Holy Spirirt is? I can make it simple for you. If your against the people who represent God, then your against God. Because it is God that is at work in them.

Do you feel that your justified but that God is not justified? We just had a discussion on Job where he came to see that God is justified in all that He does. We should not seek to justify ourself, rather we need to come to see that God is justified.

Philip · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
The point is that Hawking's represents SCIENCE. He is in a way their poster child. His thinking represents science, even mainline science today. It is nice if you can put a photo of Albert Einstein out there and say this is sciece. Or even a Carl Sagan as your representive.

Not sure how Hawkings represents science, but still haven't answered the question. Why would Satan aflict someone with ALS because the that person did not glorify God?

JohnR7 said:
Do you know what Blasphemy against the Holy Spirirt is? I can make it simple for you. If your against the people who represent God, then your against God. Because it is God that is at work in them.

It sounds like you are suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you is committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Evo · Jul 19, 2003

I"m really going to have to side with JohnyR7 on this one. If you take the bible to be the literal word of God, then people with disease are inflicted by God or Satan.

JohnR7 · Jul 19, 2003

ByGrace said:
I really hope I read your post wrong. It seems you are now saying that the guy at your "wifes" church died because he was a methodist. Since you make a point of pointing that at one point you were a methodist and now you have gotten out of it, I assume that you feel they are wrong also. Maybe you need to get the Bible out my friend. You seem to be trashing a whole part of the body of Christ. I pray I am wrong.

Jeremiah 17:10
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.

I left the Methodist Church because the pastor there said that I could not be involved in two different churchs at the same time. He told me I had to choose one church and go with just that church.

Then I went to talk to an associate pastor at the other church I was attending and he said he had no problem with me attending two different churchs. But he advised because of the Methodist Pastors attitude that I should leave the Methodist Church. Also my wife advised that we should leave the Methodist Church.

Right now we are thinking about becoming a part of a Pilgram Church. It is more traditional, but my wife seems to like it. So she is thinking about making that her church and we will just go back and forth between the two.

If you study the sermons of John Wesley there is a lot of good teaching there. But even when Wesley was still alive, he was lamenting about how the Methodists were getting away from his teaching. I tried for 5 years to get people to return to Wesley's teaching, but I was not able to. They are just to comfortable where they are at.

http://gbgm-umc.org/UMhistory/Wesley/sermons/

Rev. 3:17
Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

This is a good example of science also. They think they are wealthy, and have need of nothing, but they do not know how "wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--" they really are.

They do not see, yet is is there in the open for them to see. There is nothing hidden, there is nothing concealed. Dorean Grays portrait is no longer hidden away in the attic. It is out there in the open for everyone to see and examine.

Nathan Poe · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
The point is that Hawking's represents SCIENCE. He is in a way their poster child. His thinking represents science, even mainline science today. It is nice if you can put a photo of Albert Einstein out there and say this is sciece. Or even a Carl Sagan as your representive.

They are all representatives of science; each is a well-known expert in their particular field. But to point to any one man and say "this is science" is the height of strawman ignorance. So I can't really understand what your point is.

All I am saying is accept that. Don't try to say that his thinking represents science but his appearance does not represent science.

The fact that he has suffered from a degenerative neurological disease for the past 30 years, yet still manages to stay active in his field, communicate his ideas, and remain one of the top minds on the planet, all represents science quite nicely.

or one could be excessively shallow and superficial and say "Wow, that guy's a mess, so much for science."

If science was so wonderful, they would have found the cure for him. So accept it as a image of science today.

75 years ago, you could've said the same thing about polio.
150 years ago, you could've said the same thing about smallpox.

Who did all the praying to make these diseases go away? hmmm? You don't suppose it was scientific research that dealt with these problems?

or one could be excessively arrogant and egotistical and just expect to snap their fingers and let their pet God do all the work for them.

It would perhaps be nice if science had a Dorien Gray to be their poster child, but things did not turn out that way.

I was under the impression that Dorien Gray was religion's poster child: Beautiful and flawless on the outside, but corrupt within.

As far as Job, yes the Bible says he was perfect and upright before God. But he was not without sin in that he did try to justify himself rather than to justify God. When he came to realize this, then he did repent and God did restore back to him more than what he had lost.

Ok Johnny, give me a couple of straight answers, if you can:

1: How is it possible to be "Perfect before God" and still be sinful?

2: What do you mean by "justify" himself? How was he supposed to "justify" God?

3: Is this "justification" even in the book of Job?

Three straight answers, John; that'll prove you're not a troll.

Nathan Poe · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
Do you know what Blasphemy against the Holy Spirirt is? I can make it simple for you. If your against the people who represent God, then your against God. Because it is God that is at work in them.

I don't see Siliconaut blasphemeing against the Holy Spirit; I do believe he's mocking the source of your bogus information, but that certainly has nothing to do with God, the Holy Spirit, or Christianity.

Do you feel that your justified but that God is not justified? We just had a discussion on Job where he came to see that God is justified in all that He does. We should not seek to justify ourself, rather we need to come to see that God is justified.

1: Can we get a thesaurus here? What exactly do you mean by "justified?"

2: We haven't had a whole lot of "discussion" on Job: You just spouted off some nonsense on "justification," and we're all waiting for you to translate it.

JohnR7 · Jul 19, 2003

Philip said:
Not sure how Hawkings represents science, but still haven't answered the question. Why would Satan aflict someone with ALS because the that person did not glorify God?

If Adam and Eve had not sinned, there would be no sickness in the world today. So no matter how you slice it, sickness is the result of sin. But when Jesus was asked about the blind man: Who sinned, him or his parents. Jesus answered:

John 9:3
Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

Again when the news of the day was about a tower that fell and the people who were killed, Jesus commented.

Luke 13:4-5 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? [5] I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

I am just suggesting, and notice the word I use: "suggest", that Stephen Hawking's represents science. He represents science in what they have accomplished and in also what they have not accomplished.

It sounds like you are suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you is committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

The origional post was an attack on the Rev. Earnest Angley and his people or the church he pastors. Rev. Angley has been used by God to help many people. To attack the people of God, is the same thing as attacking God, because it is God who is at work in them.

JohnR7 · Jul 19, 2003

Nathan Poe said:
I don't see Siliconaut blasphemeing against the Holy Spirit; I do believe he's mocking the source of your bogus information, but that certainly has nothing to do with God, the Holy Spirit, or Christianity.

You do not see because you are spiritually blind. Are we just going to go over old ground again? Only those who have God can see:

Matthew 11:5
The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Deaf people are healed, we have seen God clear out a whole deaf school once. They all received their healing. They filled it right back up again with new deaf kids and invited us to come back to pray for them.

When a blind person is healed, it shows in the natural what God is doing in the spiritual. Just like when the leper is healed, it shows that people are being cleansed of their sin.

You guys are slowly starting to get this, but it is taking time.

Philip · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
If Adam and Eve had not sinned, there would be no sickness in the world today. So no matter how you slice it, sickness is the result of sin.

This is a vastly different statement than suggesting that Hawkings' specific disease is a specific punishment for not honoring God.

Nathan Poe · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
You do not see because you are spiritually blind. Are we just going to go over old ground again? Only those who have God can see:

Are going to go over this? Only if you insist on trotting out the same old nonsense.

"I can't see it because I don't have the Holy Spirit." Ok, whatever. On a similar note, Emporer JohnR7, might I interest you in some new clothes? It's a magical fabric; fools cannot see it.

You guys are slowly starting to get this, but it is taking time.

Well, it's not easy weeding out the false prophets; they keep coming back with the same old nonsense.

Philip · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
The origional post was an attack on the Rev. Earnest Angley and his people or the church he pastors. Rev. Angley has been used by God to help many people. To attack the people of God, is the same thing as attacking God, because it is God who is at work in them.

Is it acceptable to disagree with them?

Nathan Poe · Jul 19, 2003

Philip said:
Is it acceptable to disagree with them?

Of course not! Since they are working for God (which must be, because John says so), to disagree with them is to disagree with God! And we all know what happens to people who disagree with God; John smites them with ALS.

I think that by lumping himself in with them, John is trying to say that he is God.

I think I'm getting confused; John posts in mysterious ways.

JohnR7 · Jul 19, 2003

Nathan Poe said:
2: We haven't had a whole lot of "discussion" on Job: You just spouted off some nonsense on "justification," and we're all waiting for you to translate it.

I bet you are. Job is not an easy book at all.

Job 32:2
Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.

I love this word "Buzite". Here you have Elihu who was a Buzite, and he felt compelled to confront Job. Even though he was young and he was speaking to his elders. The point is though that Job: "justified himself rather than God".

When Job was shown the error of his way he repented and was restored.

Job 42:5-6
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.
[6] Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes."

Job 42:12-17
Now the Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; for he had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, one thousand yoke of oxen, and one thousand female donkeys. [13] He also had seven sons and three daughters. [14] And he called the name of the first Jemimah, the name of the second Keziah, and the name of the third Keren-Happuch. [15] In all the land were found no women so beautiful as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them an inheritance among their brothers. [16] After this Job lived one hundred and forty years, and saw his children and grandchildren for four generations. [17] So Job died, old and full of days.

I thought the part about the daughters was a nice touch.

Nathan Poe · Jul 19, 2003

JohnR7 said:
I bet you are. Job is not an easy book at all.

Job 32:2
Then the wrath of Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, was aroused against Job; his wrath was aroused because he justified himself rather than God.

I love this word "Buzite". Here you have Elihu who was a Buzite, and he felt compelled to confront Job. Even though he was young and he was speaking to his elders. The point is though that Job: "justified himself rather than God"

And Elihu was angered; God didn't have much to say about it.

And this still sheds absolutely no light on what "justifying" oneself or God means: Praise? Worship? Repentance?

Smells like a translation error to me.

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