Capital Punishment, Are we playing God when it comes to Killing someone?

porcupine · Jul 24, 2004

dnich163 said:
On this last one porcy, slavery is worse today than at any time in history...UNESCO would tell you this for sure.

UNESCO is incorrect. Until the 1700s, the most common and accepted human institution -- world wide -- was slavery. It was as accepted as breathing. A great percentage of all humans were slaves. The change that took place in England, through Christians, I might add, was that NOW slavery is universally decried as an EVIL, not a norm. Even though it exists, it exists sub rosa.

This is one of the reasons that there is a big issue with illegal immigrants. But of course there is the issue of "legal slavery", where financial institutions of the west are structured to ensure slavery of people in the third world.

This is politcal hack language. No one claims that people do not take advantage of others or that there are evils done, but, by and large, the third world's people BENEFIT from the "institutions of the west."

I don't see the world being a safer place because of the war in Iraq,

No one claimed that ALL wars produced good. However, I think you would find that most Iraqis prefer what they have now to Saddam's rule. Independent polls show a very high rate of preference.

the 2nd world war didn't stop all wars afterwards (as it was mean to do...or was that the first world war??)

Click to expand...

And laws against theft and their vigorous prosecution does not stop theft. So what? It was the first war that was labeled "the war to end all wars." This was not the reason it was fought, but a name given toward the end because people foolishly thought that the war was SO BRUTAL that no one would ever go to war after seeing it. They forgot human nature and the fact that we don't have genetic memory.

and the real problem is the residue aftre these wars...that is why there was the problem in Kosovo, a relic from the 2nd world war, where people still see others as less then themselves.

Click to expand...

The "residue" of WWII is that you aren't speaking German with a president named Shicklegruber or Japanese with in emperor to worship. Germany and japa, both our enemies, had their entire nations and economies rehabilitated by the US to the point where they are economic powerhouses today. Are there some bad leftovers? Yes. With fallen humans, how could it be otherwise.

On the whole issue of the death penalty, we have to be sure about whether our brother is our equal and do we love him as we love ourselves.

This is what Jesus gave as the greatest commandments.

David

I love others enough to put a permanent end to those who go around murdering others. Is your solution to allow them to continue? After all, if you "love" the murderer, what gives you the right to even imprison him?

I challenged your assertion that wars never accomplished any good. All you've done is show that sometimes they don't.

herev · Jul 24, 2004

dnich163 said:
On this last one porcy, slavery is worse today than at any time in history

But this is not the point--the point was that slavery was ended here by the civil war--perhaps we need more wars to stop more slavery?

dnich163 said:
I don't see the world being a safer place because of the war in Iraq

I've never understood any Christian believing that the Christian thing to do is to sit back and do nothing while others are suffering under a Tyrant. Somehow, so many of my Christian brothers and sisters think we should simply be praying for a peaceful solution while more and more die. Didn't James tell us:
15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? (James 2:15-16)
Should we not put our prayers into action?

dnich163 said:
On the whole issue of the death penalty, we have to be sure about whether our brother is our equal and do we love him as we love ourselves.

David

But this is not the issue, it is not about love, it is about proper punishment for sin, for violation of law, etc. The issue, as I understood the thread, is whether or not we have the right to exact capital punishment. I am always open to be convinced otherwise, but so far, no one has been able to definitively show me scripturally that we cannot do so.
David, part of the issue is "are you in favor of it" is not the same question. Many are not in favor of it, but they understand we are not forbidden to do so. You seem to be arguing that we are forbidden to execute. Is this right? Or am I confused about your posts?
Thanks
Tommy

Bingley · Jul 25, 2004

I am open to correction by those who know more about the American Civil War than I do, but I understood that although slavery was abolished in the US after the War Between the States, that was not the reason why it was fought. The issue was the balance of power between the states and the federal govt.

I wonder: if Hitler had refrained from marching into other countries would any other countries have bothered to put an end to his regime, however reprehensible its treatment of Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals?

I suppose what I am trying to say is that IMHO God does not want wars and would rather we settled our differences some other way, but if a war does happen, he is able to use it to bring about good results.

porcupine · Jul 26, 2004

Bingley said:
I am open to correction by those who know more about the American Civil War than I do, but I understood that although slavery was abolished in the US after the War Between the States, that was not the reason why it was fought. The issue was the balance of power between the states and the federal govt.

These were the surface reasons for the War Between the States. However, Lincoln, at the end, FINALLY understood one thing -- that the war was a punishment of God on BOTH North and South for the kidnap slavery both profited from.

I wonder: if Hitler had refrained from marching into other countries would any other countries have bothered to put an end to his regime, however reprehensible its treatment of Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals?

I believe there would have been an eventual move to stop Hilter's Final Solution regardless of whether or not he invaded other countries. (BTW, Hitler did not try to exterminate homosexuals sinc most of the Nazi high command WERE homosexuals (and worse). It was a war between the "butch" homosexuals and the "femme" homosexuals. The "butches" had the power in the Nazi party.)

I suppose what I am trying to say is that IMHO God does not want wars and would rather we settled our differences some other way, but if a war does happen, he is able to use it to bring about good results.

God has ordered wars where there were no attempts to "settle differences" when He was attempting to accomplish His will. Why do you think one of His titles is, God of Battles?

TwinCrier · Jul 26, 2004

porcupine said:
(BTW, Hitler did not try to exterminate homosexuals sinc most of the Nazi high command WERE homosexuals (and worse). It was a war between the "butch" homosexuals and the "femme" homosexuals. The "butches" had the power in the Nazi party.)

Thanks you for addressing that. It is so sad when other groups try to gain sympathy for their faction by claiming Hitler was out to get them. The JWs do that as well.
http://www.familydefensecouncil.com/fdcxi96holo.htm
http://av1611.faithweb.com/custom2.html
Now back on topic.

dnich163 · Jul 26, 2004

porcupine said:
UNESCO is incorrect......................................I challenged your assertion that wars never accomplished any good. All you've done is show that sometimes they don't.

On the UNESCO and slavery issue we will need to disagree.
There are various forms of slavery today. For example in Columbia there is a large banana plntation that is owned by an American firm. They spray chemicals onto the crops while the workers are in the fields.This chemical is for the colour to be nice and yellow (more attractive)for us going into the supermarket and for the skin to be harder (longer shelf life).
This chemical; which is banned in the US, causes birth defects for the people affected by the water table and working in the plantation.
No slavery you say !!!!

It is certainly not the case that the third world benefits from the financial institutions of the west. This statement of itself shows a real lack of understanding about how these organizations work and are structured.
Even the world bank admits mistakes over Mozambique and the cashew nut farming...this same Mozambique that had to continue paying it's debt while being flooded.
Help from the financial institutions of the west you say !!!

On the issue of war. The very fact that there are still wars shows that wars do not work. What a war does is to breed hate. There are people I know and have met who fought in Vietnam. Not one of them thought this was fought for the right or a good reason, and it affected them all negatively.

What war does to people, on both sides of the fighting is to de-humanise everyone.
This is what happened in Abu Ghraib and other places.

Our problem is that as a "civilized" western culture we do not value all life eqaully...some are treated as less than others.

I say that this is against the message and command of Jesus.

A statistic to finish with.
The US of A has 5 % of the world's population. It has 23% of the World's inmates.Even Iraq under Saddam the mad man had safer streets than the US.

Now does this make him a better person, leader or ruler?
I don't think so, but it would support those who advocate the death penalty.

David

dnich163 · Jul 26, 2004

herev said:
I've never understood any Christian believing that the Christian thing to do is to sit back and do nothing while others are suffering under a Tyrant.......................But this is not the issue, it is not about love, it is about proper punishment for sin, for violation of law, etc.
Thanks
Tommy

Hi Tommy,
I work for a third world aid agency. I never advocated not doing something against Saddam or any tyrant.
The questions I raise in this respect about Iraq are why were US and UK bombing Iraq for years after the first gulf war, sanctions against Iraq that affected only the poor during this time...and yet suddenly decided to go to war for regime change, weapons of mass destruction and to free the people...the same people we had been harming for ten years!!
Now that is hard to undrerstand, yet we swallow it hook, line and stinker !!

My bone of contention is about the death penalty.
Does it deter people from killing? ..................The statistics say no
Does it devalue the people who carry it out?.........I say yes, killing does this to society......undoubtedly.

You see the people in Iraq who carry out these gruesome murders with hostages think they are "justified" in doing so......why?........their God allows them to do it in his name !

Does this ring a bell anywhere??

For me, to kill another one of God's created beings is not right.
Is there such a thing as a just war? It would appear so, but I'm not so sure we have ever fought one yet..but that's another thread.

David

Bingley · Jul 28, 2004

porcupine said:
I believe there would have been an eventual move to stop Hilter's Final Solution regardless of whether or not he invaded other countries. (BTW, Hitler did not try to exterminate homosexuals sinc most of the Nazi high command WERE homosexuals (and worse). It was a war between the "butch" homosexuals and the "femme" homosexuals. The "butches" had the power in the Nazi party.)

Himmler on homosexuals: It is vital we rid ourselves of them; like weed we must pull them up, throw them on the fire and burn them. This is not out of a spirit of vengeance, but of necessity; these creatures must be exterminated.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/naziviews.html

Chart showing the colour codings used in the Nazi camps (including those for homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-dach-early.htm

God has ordered wars where there were no attempts to "settle differences" when He was attempting to accomplish His will. Why do you think one of His titles is, God of Battles?

In biblical times yes. But how would you prove that any war since then was ordered by God? God may have used (for example) the American Civil War to bring about the end of slavery in the US, but can you prove that he actually ordered it? How can we, with our limited human understanding, dare go to war without God's direct order and be sure that this is his will when he has ordered us to love those who hate us? Would you kill someone you love if there was no direct threat to the lives of others who you love?

dnich163 · Jul 28, 2004

herev said:
But this is not the point--the point was that slavery was ended here by the civil war--perhaps we need more wars to stop more slavery?
.............................................I've never understood any Christian believing that the Christian thing to do is to sit back and do nothing while others are suffering under a Tyrant. ............
Tommy

Hi Tommy,
I'm not so convinced that Slavery is dead.
I work with a thrid world aid agency and can assure you we have structures in place for "legal slavery".
I've never advocated or understood this idea of doing nothing either, but the problem is that we sometimes can't see further then our own nose, we never stand in the shoes of the other person or take on their robe.

I don't think killing and capital punishment is right. I can accept the idea of a just (self defence) war.

You see once we get inot this idea of "Our God"...the one that is prayed to by both sides ...commands or allows or sanctions killing one of his own created beings I think we are in deep water...or something nasty but certainly deep !!

When I see these "terrorists" on TV with hostages and the gruesome killing that takes place, we know that their justification for doing it is "because their God allows them to"

Does this ring any bells here? Have you heard this before somewhere?

I think all killing is wrong. Once we justify capital punishment or killing for ourselves then we do it for all, including our enemy.

David

brinley45cal · Jul 28, 2004

Well i belive in it.Back during that time they would kill you ,stone you, for things today we over look,like adultry orbreaking a covonant with someone,so called phycics.If we did it like they did there would be less crime in the world for sure.

dnich163 · Jul 28, 2004

Sorry for the double post Tommy...same message replied to twice by error.

David

herev · Jul 28, 2004

Hello David

dnich163 said:
I'm not so convinced that Slavery is dead.
I work with a thrid world aid agency and can assure you we have structures in place for "legal slavery".

Again, I don't think the original poster was referring to slavery everywhere, but legally sanctioned slavery did end in the US through the civil war.

dnich163 said:
I've never advocated or understood this idea of doing nothing either, but the problem is that we sometimes can't see further then our own nose, we never stand in the shoes of the other person or take on their robe.

Agreed

dnich163 said:
I don't think killing and capital punishment is right. I can accept the idea of a just (self defence) war.

as to capital punishment, I respect your right to not agree with it. As to the other, what is self-defense? I am sure we would draw the line at different places--and are we not to ever go to war to protect others?

dnich163 said:
You see once we get inot this idea of "Our God"...the one that is prayed to by both sides ...commands or allows or sanctions killing one of his own created beings I think we are in deep water...or something nasty but certainly deep !!

I think scripturally, God has sanctioned, commanded and allowed killing. To think that somehow God has changed denies God's being unchangeable (Malachi 3:6).

dnich163 said:
When I see these "terrorists" on TV with hostages and the gruesome killing that takes place, we know that their justification for doing it is "because their God allows them to"

Does this ring any bells here? Have you heard this before somewhere?

But if we do not act, saying "our" God doesn't allow it, while "their" God does, eventually, we will all answer to "them" and "their" God will be "our" God. We stood by and did nothing for too long while these terrorists plotted and planned an attack on this country that left thousands dead. I for one want my Government to do everything possible to make sure it doesn't happen again. America is under attack by those who claim that we are "infidels" and who believe that killing us will earn them a better afterlife. Talks and sanctions, and the occasional bombings (as you alluded to in the other, near-duplicate post) have done nothing to get rid of the Tyrant who was killing thousands of his own innocent people and they did nothing to make us safer here.
Biblically, sometimes there IS a time for war (Eccl. 3). Sometimes it is commanded that we turn plowshares into swords, sometimes it is expected that we take a stand. I truly respect your opinion and your right to hold to it, but it is not (in my humble opinion) in keeping with Biblical support as I read it. For the most part, I think our culture has white-washed God a lot. We have painted him as different in the New Testament--more Grandfatherly. If the God of the OT was a vengeful God, he still is. If the God of the OT was a strict, judgmental God who expected us to tow the line--He still is. If the God of the OT sanctioned war and understood its necessity at times--He still does.
So, to me, the question should not be whether God sanctions war, but does He sanction THIS war. For that, I can only hope and pray we are doing the right thing
Thanks
Tommy

herev · Jul 28, 2004

dnich163 said:
Sorry for the double post Tommy...same message replied to twice by error.

David

no problem, I only replied to the second

nick.s · Jul 28, 2004

Turn the other cheak
Do Not Kill
Love your neighbour as yourself

get the idea now?

ok so we shouldnt let them go because that could be dangerous, but provide rehab during their emprisonment and show them compassion.

Faith In God · Jul 28, 2004

nick.s said:
Turn the other cheak
Do Not Kill
Love your neighbour as yourself

get the idea now?

ok so we shouldnt let them go because that could be dangerous, but provide rehab during their emprisonment and show them compassion.

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. we as Christians are not supposed to abide by this law as individuals, but that was the way the government is biblically supposed to work. kill someone, your life is forfeit. steal a car, provide another.

nick.s · Jul 31, 2004

Yes but Jesus says in Matthew 5:38
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. if someone stikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
So as Christians we are taught not to retaliate and so if someone kills another person we should not kill the killer becuse then we are commiting murder. Jesus taught us to show compassion, 'Love your neighbour as yourself' is just one example.

Hmm i lost my trace of thought there a lil bit. i'll see wat u guys reply to that as

porcupine · Jul 31, 2004

nick.s said:
Yes but Jesus says in Matthew 5:38
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. if someone stikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
So as Christians we are taught not to retaliate and so if someone kills another person we should not kill the killer becuse then we are commiting murder. Jesus taught us to show compassion, 'Love your neighbour as yourself' is just one example.

Hmm i lost my trace of thought there a lil bit. i'll see wat u guys reply to that as

Jesus railed against the abuse of Scripture by the Jews. The "eye for eye" (spoken by God) was designed to refer ONLY to judicial judgments upon due process of law -- a government activity. The Jews had transformed it into an excuse to exact private retailation. Look at the context. Jesus is not talking about the government's responsibility (as He does in Romans 13), but the use of "eye for eye" to justify personal vengeance.

Jesus says we are to turn OUR OWN cheeks, not the cheeks of others. If we truly love our neighbors, we whould help them to stop an unjust aggressor. (I often wonder what Jesus would have said if the Good Samaritan story took place with the GS coming upon the scene while the assualt/robbery was still in progress.) Put another way, if you come upon someone killing a child, do you show love to the child by stopping the aggressor, or show love to the killer by allowing him to continue while you pray about it? (Please don't tell me that you would non-violently interpose your body between them. All that would do is enrage the killer and BOTH of you would be killed.)

Faith In God · Jul 31, 2004

porcupine said:
Jesus railed against the abuse of Scripture by the Jews. The "eye for eye" (spoken by God) was designed to refer ONLY to judicial judgments upon due process of law -- a government activity. The Jews had transformed it into an excuse to exact private retailation. Look at the context. Jesus is not talking about the government's responsibility (as He does in Romans 13), but the use of "eye for eye" to justify personal vengeance.

Jesus says we are to turn OUR OWN cheeks, not the cheeks of others. If we truly love our neighbors, we whould help them to stop an unjust aggressor. (I often wonder what Jesus would have said if the Good Samaritan story took place with the GS coming upon the scene while the assualt/robbery was still in progress.) Put another way, if you come upon someone killing a child, do you show love to the child by stopping the aggressor, or show love to the killer by allowing him to continue while you pray about it? (Please don't tell me that you would non-violently interpose your body between them. All that would do is enrage the killer and BOTH of you would be killed.)

thank you for saving me from repeating myself

and nice point with the good samaritan. but are you for killing in self defense? just curious.

porcupine · Jul 31, 2004

butxifxnot said:
thank you for saving me from repeating myself and nice point with the good samaritan. but are you for killing in self defense? just curious.

I think self defense depends on the circumstances and the leading of the Spirit. Certainly if our motive is vengeance as opposed to defense, it is wrong. Defense of others is another matter. Sometimes we must defend ourselves in order to defend others.

Gish · Jul 31, 2004

Treasure the Questions said:
The trouble with capital punishment is that you cannot bring anyone back to life if they turn out to be innocent after all, and there have been many miscarriages of justice, and in some cases the falsely accused have been executed.

Karin

An entirely legitimate reason for someone to be opposed to the death penalty of course, but its hardly decisive. If you sentence an innocent person to life imprisonment, it is true that the conviction can be overturned and the prisoner can be freed. But presumably this will not always happen, some innocent people will spend the rest of their life in prison. It is difficult to say whether this is any better than where an innocent person has been executed.

Capital Punishment, Are we playing God when it comes to Killing someone?

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