No pre-trib rapture

Big Mouth Nana · Jul 25, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
I'm glad if your study of scripture brought you closer to God.
It sure did it for me. It was through the study of scripture that I finally had to abandon posttrib.

I also stand by my comments that you responded to. They were written to one who made chose to make judgments about the faith of other Christians based on their endtime belief.

Well, I don't go along with doing that. I feel that if we have all accepted Jesus as our Savior, then that is the most important thing. Gee, it means heaven or hell, lol. I look at it this way also, if things start getting uglier here on earth, according to what the scriptures say about the tribulation, those knowledgable in the word will recognize what is going on. If Jesus comes in the next few minutes, I am ready...Amen?

FreeinChrist · Jul 25, 2004

good4u said:
[/color][/size][/color][/size]

I am not yelling. Yelling is this: SEE NOW I AM YELLING! [caps off] You don't even understand MB language. There is no hope for you.

You continue with the rudeness and insults. Not too impressive.
I am aware, my dear, that all caps is considered yelling. Other people yell by using a large font in bold.

Yes, I know angels are not chosen or called. But one little verse in Revelation does not build an entire understanding of who armies are. BTW, does it say that those who are "called" with the LORD fight too? No, I don't think it does. You are making a false assumption. Don't read into Scripture what it does not say. You are doing this constantly and making wrong conclusions.

I am "constantly" reading into scripture and making wrong conclusions? YOU are the one who thinks Adolf Hitler will be the AC!

As for who will return with Christ:
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Zec 14:5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, {and} all the holy ones with Him!

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

1Th 2:19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?

1Th 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
Plus, I never stated the saints fight. You made that assumption. I said they come back with Christ. Christ destroys the armies all by Himself.

Answer me this: Is the church the only group of folks who wear white rainment or do angels wear white rainment too? These verses do not go together as you are sqeezing Scripture to say something that it does not in context. Better Bible hermanuetics would help you.

Frankly, Bible hermenutics would really help you. Then you wouldn't constantly need to rely on rudeness, insults and assumptions! I don't know what bug in your bonnet is...you use to be a more pleasant person.

Overcomers are promised white raiment. The souls under the alters who were martyred are given white robes.
Rev 6:11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until {the number of} their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
And...
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and {all} tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches {were} in their hands;
Rev 19:8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright {and} clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Sorry, you are not convincing that the armies of God are not angels. Doesn't it make sense to you that if Satan has ranks of demonic hosts that fight God and His purposes that God would have even stronger ranks of angelic hosts (who btw, wear brilliant white rainment) to carry out God's purposes? I think so and makes more sense that the church who is a "bride" and not "warriors."

[/quote]First, Satan is thrown out of heaven mid70th week. That is from a war with Michael and the angels. AND I never said that angels couldn't be involved in the defeat of Satan and the AC and the false prophet at the end of the tribulation.
But scripture does say this:

2Th 2:8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
Zec 14:12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.

Zec 14:13 It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
Jesus doesn't even need anyone else. You are giving Satan too much credit.

FreeinChrist · Jul 25, 2004

By His Grace said:
Well, I don't go along with doing that. I feel that if we have all accepted Jesus as our Savior, then that is the most important thing. Gee, it means heaven or hell, lol. I look at it this way also, if things start getting uglier here on earth, according to what the scriptures say about the tribulation, those knowledgable in the word will recognize what is going on. If Jesus comes in the next few minutes, I am ready...Amen?

Amen!

FreeinChrist · Jul 25, 2004

good4u said:
Again, where did you get the notion that the 70th week is the entire tribulation? I'll ask it this way: Tribulation for who? If the church is not here as you suppose, who is? Do you see how illogical you sound? Why would John write such a fantastic letter to the church, if we are not going to be here to patiently endure it as saints? Why would I care if I were not going to be here? I only care about the 70th week because saints are going to be here? See? This is not that hard.

First, the tribulation is this: the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Go through Revelation and mark what happens to 'those who dwell on the earth'.

1/4 of the earth dies with the first 4 seals. That is not tribulation? Many, many scholars would disagree, and many of those aren't even pretrib.
Before the trumpet judgements is this:
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
That is a picture of God's judgment on the earth and those who dwell on the earth.
At least 1/3 die in the 6th trumpet judgment. Many others would have died in the earlier ones...like the '1/3 of the ships'.
But that isn't tribulation? ha!

Second, the letters to the church are in chapters 2-3. The rest is written as other prophecies - the future stated so that when it is fulfilled, God's glory will be seen. There will be those who are reached for Christ during this time. The book is for them, too.

Third, why you should care is because you shouldn't want ANYONE to go through it and should be trying to reach as many as you can for Christ! (bold for emphasis)

Honeycomb · Jul 25, 2004

FreeinChrist

You know, it was ignorant comments like this that opened my eyes to the problems of the

BY Honeycomb

Mind your way, son

--God hates haughty folks

-

frightened Pre-trib ?

I cant understand them much

And

I feel the good Lord feels the same about shepherds that front -then run when the big bad wolf shows up

Little shepherd-boy David didnt fear lions and tigers and Bears oh my!

Or Big bad giants

It is only through the indwelling His Spirit married entwined with ours that we may have eternal life

Eternal is ETERNAL --His fire only warms the hearts of His loved ones

Tell us Jesus

Mat 24:3

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

After the tribulation

Mat 24:29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

shall appear the sign

Mat 24:30

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

great sound of a trumpet the great 7th

Mat 24:31

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together (AFTER THE TRIBULATION) his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am with you

Mat 28:20

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

Weve been given us power over ALL His/our enemies

READ

nothing shall hurt

Luke 10:19

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Ive been shown how to defeat them,

its easier than you would have ever thought -or could ever possibly believe since you lack the faith or trust in Christ

not an hair perish

Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Read His word He came to me

Read His word He will come to you

God bless

Peace

__________________________________

JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD

THE RESURRECTION

AND THE LIFE

Barraco · Jul 25, 2004

c'mon guys, this is a debate, not a fight. Love thy neighbor.

good4u · Jul 25, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
You continue with the rudeness and insults. Not too impressive.
I am aware, my dear, that all caps is considered yelling. Other people yell by using a large font in bold.

I am not being rude, but I am direct because I don't care for falsehoods as Scripture is misinterpreted causing a sense of false security to those who would be caught in it IF the 70th week were to begin. You would be ill-prepared to handle the 70th week when the tribulation of the saints begins in the "middle" of that week for you would be slaughtered like naked sheep for the taking by Anti-Christ.

Let's put it this way, for the sake of argument "say" you were right and the church would disappear from the earth before anything happened? I would owe you a heart felt apology in heaven. I would be happy to give it to you. But what if what I said was the truth and the church endured the tribulation as Scripture states and you didn't prepare? Your life is in great danger and taken from you by Anti-Christ because of your foolishness. Which would you rather have? I think you know.

Isn't it easier to read in a larger font? That is not yelling, it is easier to read. Your mixing apples and oranges now.

FreeinChrist said:
I am "constantly" reading into scripture and making wrong conclusions? YOU are the one who thinks Adolf Hitler will be the AC!

http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001

Yes. And your former world ruler is? I'm listening.

FreeinChrist said:
As for who will return with Christ:

FreeinChrist said:
Plus, I never stated the saints fight. You made that assumption. I said they come back with Christ. Christ destroys the armies all by Himself.

http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001

FreeinChrist said:
Frankly, Bible hermenutics would really help you. Then you wouldn't constantly need to rely on rudeness, insults and assumptions!

FreeinChrist said:
I don't know what bug in your bonnet is...you use to be a more pleasant person.

http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001

If debating bothers you, then maybe you should stop. I have no bug other than others who are being misled by wrong understanding of Scripture about this very important subject. Correct understanding could very well save your life.

good4u · Jul 25, 2004

FreeinChrist said:
First, the tribulation is this: the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Go through Revelation and mark what happens to 'those who dwell on the earth'.

1/4 of the earth dies with the first 4 seals. That is not tribulation? Many, many scholars would disagree, and many of those aren't even pretrib.
Before the trumpet judgements is this:
Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
That is a picture of God's judgment on the earth and those who dwell on the earth.
At least 1/3 die in the 6th trumpet judgment. Many others would have died in the earlier ones...like the '1/3 of the ships'.
But that isn't tribulation? ha!

As bad as all of it is, the first 4 seals relate to the AC conquering the earth. But you mix up the conquering of the earth by AC with the "tribulation of the saints" by the AC which specifically relates to the 5th seal. Have you understood anything I have said? Or do you just want to ramble? This is getting old. I am about ready to give up explaining this.

FreeinChrist said:
Second, the letters to the church are in chapters 2-3. The rest is written as other prophecies - the future stated so that when it is fulfilled, God's glory will be seen. There will be those who are reached for Christ during this time. The book is for them, too.

Yes, it is for them. But very few will turn and repent because the Mark has already been accepted by them.

FreeinChrist said:
Third, why you should care is because you shouldn't want ANYONE to go through it and should be trying to reach as many as you can for Christ! (bold for emphasis)

Of course I don't want to go thru it, but it is not about me!!! It is about God's purposes for his people. Now, why does the church have to go through this most horrific time in history as Scripture states?

1) To remove the wheat from the tares in the church. The tribulation of the saints on earth will reveal who are counterfeit Christians (who fall away from the faith and turn to AC to save their skins) and who are geninue Christians which stand fast to their faith and resist the AC.

This is God's method to "sift" the church to make her ready to be "clean" and "pure" for her bridegroom, Jesus Christ. Otherwise, without this tribulation testimony of their tested faith it would be everyone who claims faith without testing would be considered a "Christian." Which is the case today, we have many who have a "said" faith and not a real "tested" faith as a testimony to Christ. Do you see why the church must endure this terrible event now?

2) Christ in Matthew 24 even tells the disciples the church will endure this event. If Christ tell them and subsquently us this tribulation will happen to the church, why should you be different and disagree with Christ that this is not going to happen?

Think logically as Scripture states that it will indeed be this way. I don't want you to believe me, but believe the ultimate authority of Scripture. I really am trying to help you, but I do get impatient with those who don't even consider what Scripture states.

thirsty · Jul 25, 2004

Whether or not the pre-trib rapture is true or not we should remember that we are all Christians and faith in Christ Himself is most important.
I only skimmed through the threads here so I am not sure if this has been mentioned at all.
In the last decade or so a document was found by Dr.Grant Jeffery regarding the pre-trib rapture. Ephraem of Nisibis wrote this in the early middle ages: For all the saints and the elects of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.
There has been alot debate whether this is authentic or not. I would be interested in hearing what people think.
Here are some links.

http://www.geocities.com/landmarkbiblebaptist/Prophecy/PreTribProof.html
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/ephraem1.html
http://www.khouse.org/articles/prophetic/19950601-39.html

FreeinChrist · Jul 25, 2004

Honeycomb said:
FreeinChrist

You know, it was ignorant comments like this that opened my eyes to the problems of the

BY Honeycomb

Mind your way, son
--God hates haughty folks

I'm female...not a 'son.

And regarding haughty....look in the mirror, honeycomb.
It is the haughty who try and make themselves seem much superior than others. Your comments made before come off very haughty...and shows much bias on your part.

frightened Pre-trib ?
I cant understand them much
And
I feel the good Lord feels the same about shepherds that front -then run when the big bad wolf shows up
Little shepherd-boy David didnt fear lions and tigers and Bears oh my!
Or Big bad giants

More pathetic commentary. Does it make you feel superior, honeycomb?

I already posted what some of my pretrib church family is doing in the world. Since you choose to call them cowards as they face physical harm, death or inprisonment, hardship and loss, what have you done that makes you better than them?
I recently learned that another of my church family, the parents of my daughters good friend, are going off to an area of Papua New Guinea next year....where they will have to hike 2 days to get to the people groups they are trying to reach. Have you done what all these "cowards" are going to do, honeycomb?

FreeinChrist · Jul 25, 2004

good4u said:
I am not being rude, but I am direct because I don't care for falsehoods as Scripture is misinterpreted causing a sense of false security to those who would be caught in it IF the 70th week were to begin.
You would be ill-prepared to handle the 70th week when the tribulation of the saints begins in the "middle" of that week for you would be slaughtered like naked sheep for the taking by Anti-Christ.

YES, you were very rude! And you aren't doing any better now. YOU have no clue how prepared I am for anything. YOU don't know me. WHO are you to be so judgmental in regards to my faith???

It is judgemental folks like you and honeycomb that finally opened my eyes to posttrib doctrines, and the false security that comes with the "I'll be prepared and will handle it" mentality. The ONLY preparation is by being right with Christ, and walking with Christ. Those that come to Christ in the 70th week will need to depend on Christ, just as we ned to today when we face trials in our life.

There are antichrists today. The way not to be taken in is to be right with Christ and be knowledgeable about scripture.
Since pretribbers expect that we will be removed before the tribulation period, the next event in prophecy that we expect is to meet Christ in the air and to be with Him. So the future AC will have just as hard a time with pretribbers as other antichrists do now. I, like every other pretribber I know, beleive that if some fellow shows up and claims to be Christ, performs some miracles etc., we will be as skeptical as you.

Honestly, why don't you two focus on scripture and stop with the ad hominen, judgmental comments.

Let's put it this way, for the sake of argument "say" you were right and the church would disappear from the earth before anything happened? I would owe you a heart felt apology in heaven. I would be happy to give it to you. But what if what I said was the truth and the church endured the tribulation as Scripture states and you didn't prepare? Your life is in great danger and taken from you by Anti-Christ because of your foolishness. Which would you rather have? I think you know.

As I wrote - there are, and have been, antichrists since the first century. Christians have ALWAYS needed to be aware of false teaching, false claims, and test the spirits behind any teacher or teaching. That is not new.

When the Moons and the Hitler types appear, I will be as skeptical as I have always been, and will take it to God in prayer.

BTW, Christians NOW have had their life taken from them. I have friends that are pretrib and risked their life spreading the word. The best preparation is being right with Christ and leaning on Him for guidance and protection.

And what preparations do you think I need to do? Stock 7 years worth of can goods in a cellar in a wilderness lot that has its own gnerator?

Isn't it easier to read in a larger font? That is not yelling, it is easier to read. Your mixing apples and oranges now.

That is why I always use size '3' .

If debating bothers you, then maybe you should stop. I have no bug other than others who are being misled by wrong understanding of Scripture about this very important subject. Correct understanding could very well save your life.

Debating is one thing. Personal attacks in the form of ad hominen comments is another.

And your concern for my life is joke. God never promises to save the life of any Christian during the 70th week - they get beheaded by the AC. It is only the 144,000 that have protection and that is not til the 5th trumpet.

FreeinChrist · Jul 25, 2004

good4u said:
[/color][/size]

As bad as all of it is, the first 4 seals relate to the AC conquering the earth. But you mix up the conquering of the earth by AC with the "tribulation of the saints" by the AC which specifically relates to the 5th seal. Have you understood anything I have said? Or do you just want to ramble? This is getting old. I am about ready to give up explaining this.

The tribulation is not just the AC's beheading of those that will not worshop him. It is the hour that will come to try those who dwell on the earth. It includes God's judgment on the earth during this time. The AC's actions are only a part of it.

Yes, it is for them. But very few will turn and repent because the Mark has already been accepted by them.

I disagree. I don't beleive they will be there.
Rev 1:19 "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

The things which you have seen - the vision
the things which are - the churches
the things that will take place after these things - Rev. 4- part of 22.
I believe the church will taken up to heaven in reality as John was taken spiritually in Rev. 4:1.

Of course I don't want to go thru it, but it is not about me!!! It is about God's purposes for his people. Now, why does the church have to go through this most horrific time in history as Scripture states?

1) To remove the wheat from the tares in the church. The tribulation of the saints on earth will reveal who are counterfeit Christians (who fall away from the faith and turn to AC to save their skins) and who are geninue Christians which stand fast to their faith and resist the AC.

This is God's method to "sift" the church to make her ready to be "clean" and "pure" for her bridegroom, Jesus Christ. Otherwise, without this tribulation testimony of their tested faith it would be everyone who claims faith without testing would be considered a "Christian." Which is the case today, we have many who have a "said" faith and not a real "tested" faith as a testimony to Christ. Do you see why the church must endure this terrible event now?

I'm sorry but I absolutely disagree with this theory! I don't see anywhere that the church needs to be purified by the testing using the AC to be good enough to to be saved! I don't see that scriptue teaches we are purified as a group!
I don't beleive that is the purpose of the tribulation period at all. It is for the reconciliation of Israel. It is a final call for folks to beleive who have never heard before because the end is near.
Those who beleive and have received the Holy Spirit are already purified because of the blood of Jesus Christ, and the washing of regeneration of the Holy spirit (Titus 3). What you are suggesting above is a faith and works salvaton.

2) Christ in Matthew 24 even tells the disciples the church will endure this event. If Christ tell them and subsquently us this tribulation will happen to the church, why should you be different and disagree with Christ that this is not going to happen?

No, I don't think he is talking about the church at all, but about Israel. That is why the comment about the Sabbath.

Think logically as Scripture states that it will indeed be this way. I don't want you to believe me, but believe the ultimate authority of Scripture. I really am trying to help you, but I do get impatient with those who don't even consider what Scripture states.

[/quote]Well, I get impatient with those that make ad hominen comments as you have. And that make statements of intepretation and get upset when disagreed with.

I have been studying this for years now, inductively. I diagree with your premises.

Honeycomb · Jul 26, 2004

FreeinChrist

More pathetic commentary. Does it make you feel superior, honeycomb?

YOU don't know me

YES, you were very rude!

WHO are you to be so judgmental in regards to my faith???

Honestly, why don't you two focus on scripture and stop with the ad hominen, judgmental comments

YOU have no clue

YOU don't know me

Since you choose to call them cowards

BY Honeycomb

You tell on yourself,

yeah,
I think I see what Im confronted with

Id say about 13 or 14 years old perhaps maybe 15?

The string is all yours missy ---Ill go away

Oh and God does hate haughty folks

Enjoy

God bless

Peace

_________________________________

JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD

good4u · Jul 26, 2004

You know Free, it is time for me to stop as you will believe what you want without proper understanding of Scripture which I hope is not to your demise. God help you. I am stopping.

FreeinChrist · Jul 26, 2004

Honeycomb said:
BY Honeycomb

You tell on yourself,

yeah,
I think I see what Im confronted with

Id say about 13 or 14 years old perhaps maybe 15?

The string is all yours missy ---Ill go away

Oh and God does hate haughty folks

sorry,, honeycomb...but I am over 50 (that I will admit too

)

From your first post , I figured you were a teenager. Image my surprize that you are supposed to be a teacher. Seems you should know better.

If you truly believe that God hates haughty people...perhaps you should stop acting so haughty, fella.

FreeinChrist · Jul 26, 2004

good4u said:
You know Free, it is time for me to stop as you will believe what you want without proper understanding of Scripture which I hope is not to your demise. God help you. I am stopping.

And I will leave you to your misunderstandings of scripture. God help you, too!

OrthodoxyUSA · Jul 26, 2004

http://www.christianforums.com/t727770

Honeycomb · Jul 26, 2004

Orthodoxyusa

I enjoyed the article very much

BUT

I believe we are indeed translated or raptured at the Second Advent of Christ --when we are gathered to Him

Some folks are already transfiguring now -but very much staying-putt till the last day. Perhaps its to tell others or maybe just getting ready? I donno why?

Ive transfigured three times already

and its just like somebody (Christ Jesus) hit a light switch only YOU are the light!

WOW!!!

God bless

Peace

____________________________________

JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD

P.S.

Somebody?

is doing their very best to stop my messages from getting posted at this site

Hey! you whoever you are, I never stay at one site for very long before I move on -so can you please just chill-out?

I pray (for a start) the good Lord puts holes in every bucket he or she owns

thirsty · Jul 26, 2004

Honeycomb said:
Orthodoxyusa

I enjoyed the article very much

BUT

I believe we are indeed translated or raptured at the Second Advent of Christ --when we are gathered to Him

Some folks are already transfiguring now -but very much staying-putt till the last day. Perhaps its to tell others or maybe just getting ready? I donno why?

Ive transfigured three times already

and its just like somebody (Christ Jesus) hit a light switch only YOU are the light!

WOW!!!

God bless

Peace

____________________________________

JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD

P.S.

Somebody?

is doing their very best to stop my messages from getting posted at this site

Hey! you whoever you are, I never stay at one site for very long before I move on -so can you please just chill-out?

I pray (for a start) the good Lord puts holes in every bucket he or she owns

Where does it say in the Bible we are to pray for someones misfortune?

Honeycomb · Jul 26, 2004

God loves brave warriors

God bless

Peace

No pre-trib rapture

Post Tribulationist

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