Capital Punishment, Are we playing God when it comes to Killing someone?

Bingley said:

Who said anything about not assisting those who are being oppressed or dragged to slaughter? Once the offender is in the court system arrangements can, in most cases, be made to ensure they cannot commit further murders, rapes, or whatever.

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Sorry, I misunderstood your question. I had said that you may turn your own cheek but not that of another person. This is what i thought you were asking about.

Murders happen in prisons all the time, my friend. Assualts, rapes, and other crimes are daily occurrances there. I believe a murderer -- after due process -- should be executed as God said. I don't theink we can improve on God's ideas of proper punishment -- no matter how "advanced" we become.

porcupine said:

I believe a murderer -- after due process -- should be executed as God said. I don't theink we can improve on God's ideas of proper punishment -- no matter how "advanced" we become.

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God has perfect judgement, and I trust in Him. According to the Innocence project almost 150 men have been let off of death row, after being wrongly convicted. Of those cases almost half were the result of police and/or prosecutorial misconduct. Cases ranged from outright frames by the police (One cop admitted he had framed a suspect to clear the case, but didn't feel bad - since the man he framed was a known scumbag, so who cares?). Those are rare, but common are cases where the cops and prosecutors manufacture evidance, lie about how it was collected or withold exculpatory evidance. Often the cases involve prosecutors that withould evidence they have that roves innocence.

Our sytem is rife with false witness, and I as a Christian, can't support a system that I know is driven - even in part - by false witness.

Most folks, including the Christian run Centurian Project (another body that works for the falsly convicted) say that it is virtualy certain that innocent men have been exected.

So do you propose that it is better that an innocent man die, then the guilty live?

does not the bible say that when at trial (esp with the magnitude of murder) that you must have two or three witnesses?

circumstantial evidence in not enough to put a man to death.

Rev. Smith said:

God has perfect judgement, and I trust in Him. According to the Innocence project almost 150 men have been let off of death row, after being wrongly convicted. Of those cases almost half were the result of police and/or prosecutorial misconduct. Cases ranged from outright frames by the police (One cop admitted he had framed a suspect to clear the case, but didn't feel bad - since the man he framed was a known scumbag, so who cares?). Those are rare, but common are cases where the cops and prosecutors manufacture evidance, lie about how it was collected or withold exculpatory evidance. Often the cases involve prosecutors that withould evidence they have that roves innocence.

Our sytem is rife with false witness, and I as a Christian, can't support a system that I know is driven - even in part - by false witness.

Most folks, including the Christian run Centurian Project (another body that works for the falsly convicted) say that it is virtualy certain that innocent men have been exected.

So do you propose that it is better that an innocent man die, then the guilty live?

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I have probably seen more prosecutorial/cop misconduct than most people and I agree our system is not trustworthy. I specifically said "after due process" for that reason. I know what the term means as opposed to what the current system claims it means. My challenge was to those who say that because we are more able to imprison people than those God spoke to in the OT and the NT, that this should replace doing what God said. I say we do what God said to the best of our ability. I also say we, as Christians, need to understand what Jesus knew -- that people and people's systems cannot receive our automatic trust.

As to the fact that innocent men may die: Do you think God, when He instituted the death penalty, would have been surprised that there might be errors or even "successful" false witness?

porcupine said:

I have probably seen more prosecutorial/cop misconduct than most people and I agree our system is not trustworthy. I specifically said "after due process" for that reason. I know what the term means as opposed to what the current system claims it means.

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Knowing the shennanigans that go on and that it is entirely possible that evidence had been falsified or withheld, if you were on a jury would you find a defendant guilty of a capital offence? Would you be more or less ready to find them guilty if they were not going to be executed?

i keep hearing this in this thread "that God instituted the death penalty". have i missed where the verse has been posted concerning this?

Genesis 9:5-6 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Exodus 21:12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Exodus 21:16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Exodus 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Leviticus 24:17-21 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast. And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.

Mark 7:9-10 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Bingley said:

Knowing the shennanigans that go on and that it is entirely possible that evidence had been falsified or withheld, if you were on a jury would you find a defendant guilty of a capital offence? Would you be more or less ready to find them guilty if they were not going to be executed?

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Jury members are supposed to be sceptical of the government and demand a high level of certainty before convicting anyone of anything. That is their job. However, most times jury members think it is their job to "put bad guys in jail" and they tend to give MORE credence to police than is warranted. I have been very sceptical of police testimony when I was on jury duty and at other times as well. I hold this position regardless of the punishment the accused faces.

none of those verses say it's up to US to inflict the killing.

kimber1 said:

none of those verses say it's up to US to inflict the killing.

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then how do you apply the law of 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth'? the law works on this principle. if someone kills someone else, then civil law has a call for him to restore what it is he has done. since there is nothing that you can do to give back the person's life, all that can happen is that own person's life be taken from him.

If not through the courts, then how can the execution happen? One of those verses says how the pharisees rejected one of the condemning commands of God (those that curse parents are to die), which shows that it is someone on earth who is to do it.

porcupine said:

As to the fact that innocent men may die: Do you think God, when He instituted the death penalty, would have been surprised that there might be errors or even "successful" false witness?

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God instituted the death penalty when he dwelled amongst the people in the tent of meeting, he was a column of fire by night and a pillar of smoke by day. And he set Moses and Aaron to choose the judges for the people who were guided by HIM.

With the New Covenant we have the Holy Spirit which speaks to all, but is heard by few. Did not Jesus end our boondage to the Law? How then do we keep the penalties of the Old law, if we have not its burden? If God has said that the Gentile converts to Christ are not bound to any law but the Law he taught (and in the only death penalty case Christ handled in the bible he let the perp walk away unharmed) - then there can be no Christian death penalty, unless you can find a sinless man to execute it.

We lack the benifit of divinly appointed and guided judges, and thus must trust in the "system", one we know has deep flaws. That God, in the time of the Levites, exacted the death penatly does not make for a convinceing argument that we should entrust that power to secular men and random juries.

Rev. Smith said:

God instituted the death penalty when he dwelled amongst the people in the tent of meeting, he was a column of fire by night and a pillar of smoke by day. And he set Moses and Aaron to choose the judges for the people who were guided by HIM.

With the New Covenant we have the Holy Spirit which speaks to all, but is heard by few. Did not Jesus end our boondage to the Law? How then do we keep the penalties of the Old law, if we have not its burden? If God has said that the Gentile converts to Christ are not bound to any law but the Law he taught (and in the only death penalty case Christ handled in the bible he let the perp walk away unharmed) - then there can be no Christian death penalty, unless you can find a sinless man to execute it.

We lack the benifit of divinly appointed and guided judges, and thus must trust in the "system", one we know has deep flaws. That God, in the time of the Levites, exacted the death penatly does not make for a convinceing argument that we should entrust that power to secular men and random juries.

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I wish I had the law down half as good as you do!! I mean that I understand these things, but cannot seem to articulate them as you do. I should just follow you around as you post because we seem to agree on a lot of these points!

So many thoughts...

Prison conditions

Someone opined that we should cut out all but the essentials for all the people in prisons - largely as a cost saving measure. Many of the expensive security features in prisons protect the people who work in prisons and the communities around prisons and prisoners from each other. Do we consider it appropriate that a robber should suffer gang rape? Do we consider that an inherent part of the punishment?

The reality is that most prisoners will return to society. They will walk the same streets, eat at the same McDonald's, and live in our same communities. If they have endured a years of deprevation, brutality and no compassion or care, what kind of people do we think they are going to be when they and stand at the bus stop with us? From the most selfish of positions, it is in the best interest of ourselves and our children to see that prisoners are treated as humanely as possible. And as Christians I'm sure we can do better than take only the most selfish of positions.

Death Penalty

I believe that it is fully within the government's right to have a death penalty. Let's remember that when Paul wrote of government, he was talking about the Roman government which has brutal to citizens and non citizens alike.

However, I wold like to see governments not exercise their right to have a death penalty. We have certainly seen in recent years how many innocent people have been convicted of crimes. And, more importantly, we are destroying an opportunity for people to repent.

God loves Justice?

My mom always told us, "Never ask for justice when you can have mercy." In western culture we are very big on justice and rights and seem to damand those when we should be asking for mercy. I know that God requires us to "do justice", and that God is just, and those are important persuits. But God also grants mercy. Under a just God, we are all damned. Under a merciful God, we can be saved. God is both. I know that we are still struggling with how to do justice, but simultaneously we also need to work on how we do mercy and be merciful to all involved - criminals, victims, victim families, criminals families...

Playing God

I do not believe that humans have the ablity to "play God". The phrase conjures up images of us taking the decision out of God hands and acting for ourselves. Humans are simply incapable of doing any of that. Nothing will happen but what God wishes it, or God allows it. We may choose to spare a murderer from death, but God can still strike that person dead if He so chooses. We may choose to withhold medical treatment, but God can still heal the person without medical intervention, if He so chooses.

Dad Ernie said:

Because God commanded ........................to Even Jesus acknowledged to Pilate that God gave him the authority and power over life and death.

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Hi Ern,
I don't know that I agree with this assertion or interpretation about God actually commanding us to kill his created creatures..which everyone is after all.

On the Jesus bit, he accepted the situation as it had to happen, but remember on the cross he said to "forgive them for they know not what they do"

I go with that as far as scripture dictates.

David

kimber1 said:

none of those verses say it's up to US to inflict the killing.

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Better look again, Kimber.

Genesis 9:5-6 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

All of the sentences for crimes in Israel said "he shall be PUT TO DEATH" not "I will smite him." If they did not, the bloodguilt came upon the WHOLE LAND.


Numbers 35:30-34
30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person to cause him to die.
31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
32 And ye shall take no satisfaction for him that is fled to the city of his refuge, that he should come again to dwell in the land, until the death of the priest.
33 So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.
34 Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.

You see, if the people refused to execute these sentences, they were held liable.

Is this enough?

not really becasue then you have Jesus coming later and FUFILLING the old law but i guess this is what was meant when i was accused of bring God's curse on the land earlier by someone? i gotcha now

porcupine said:

Please don't resurrect that old saw. The death penalty is proof of the value we place on human life...........................God kills to show people that murder is wrong. He commanded Israel to do so. ?

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Well prickly one, this is a bold statement here...you imply that you know the mind of God!!

Jesus himself came to overcome death..yet we humans still interpret the death sentence as the ultimate sanction against another human being.

What I suggest is that this very act makes us all less then human, and certianly inhumane.

Isn't the old saying about revenge is mine saith the Lord

If history has shown us one thing it is that wars and killing don't work.

David

porcupine said:

Jury members are supposed to be sceptical of the government and demand a high level of certainty before convicting anyone of anything. That is their job. However, most times jury members think it is their job to "put bad guys in jail" and they tend to give MORE credence to police than is warranted. I have been very sceptical of police testimony when I was on jury duty and at other times as well. I hold this position regardless of the punishment the accused faces.

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Good on yer. Well done.

dnich163 said:

Well prickly one, this is a bold statement here...you imply that you know the mind of God!!

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Well, I try, David. After all, we, as Christians, are supposed to.

1 Corinthians 2:16
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Hebrews 5:14
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Are you saying it can't happen, or that you don't want to?

Jesus himself came to overcome death..yet we humans still interpret the death sentence as the ultimate sanction against another human being.

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It is the ultimate sanction we can dispense on earth. Jesus overcame death for those who are His, not for those who are not. It shouldn't bother us to die, but it results in eternal punishment for those who do not.

What I suggest is that this very act makes us all less then human, and certianly inhumane.

Isn't the old saying about revenge is mine saith the Lord

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Since God recommends the death penalty, I think it might be a bit presumptuous to say that it is inhumane. The passage quoted repeatedly above out of Roman 13 is preceded by discussion of the "vengeance is Mine" verse, but goes on to say that God has authorized governments to be legitimate arms of HIS veangeance with the executioner's sword. (BTW, why is it that some people object to quotes from the OT, but always manage to quote "vengeance is Mine" -- an OT vers?)

If history has shown us one thing it is that wars and killing don't work.

David

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You need a better history book, my friend. Wars have stopped slavery (the Civil War), Naziism, Communism, and delivered the oppressed from bondage many times throughout history. What you have said is as ill-informed as saying that handguns have never done any good when every police officer has them and many use them to the good of society. You need to investigate those cliches before propunding them as "wisdom."

porcupine said:

You need a better history book, my friend. Wars have stopped slavery (the Civil War), Naziism, Communism, and delivered the oppressed from bondage many times throughout history. What you have said is as ill-informed as saying that handguns have never done any good when every police officer has them and many use them to the good of society. You need to investigate those cliches before propunding them as "wisdom."

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On this last one porcy, slavery is worse today than at any time in history...UNESCO would tell you this for sure.
This is one of the reasons that there is a big issue with illegal immigrants. But of course there is the issue of "legal slavery", where financial institutions of the west are structured to ensure slavery of people in the third world.

I don't see the world being a safer place because of the war in Iraq, the 2nd world war didn't stop all wars afterwards (as it was mean to do...or was that the first world war??) and the real problem is the residue aftre these wars...that is why there was the problem in Kosovo, a relic from the 2nd world war, where people still see others as less then themselves.

On the whole issue of the death penalty, we have to be sure about whether our brother is our equal and do we love him as we love ourselves.

This is what Jesus gave as the greatest commandments.

David