What was God's eternal purpose in Christ's atonment?

Reformationist · Jul 17, 2003

Hello everyone. I just wanted to discuss people's opinions regarding God's divine purpose in the Atonement.

If you are inclined, feel free to post Scriptural support for your position.

Thanks for your participation,
God bless

jesus_freak_for_life · Jul 17, 2003

Christ died for everyone. He loves everyone.
When Satan tempted man and caused him to fall, God started to plan atonement, right away. I believe the description in Genesis 3:14-15 matches Jesus getting back at Satan.
God loves us all and wants nothing more than fellowship between us and Him.
God does not show favoritism. (See Matthew 5:45, Acts 10:34). He was a friend of the sinners. (Luke 7:34). He desires salvation for all, but it depends on us. It's a choice WE must make.
God Bless.
And hey, that baby is SO precious!

Knight · Jul 17, 2003

Interesting poll my friend.

I voted for the fourth choice as I'm sure you could have guessed. If you accept the doctrine of election then it is only logical to assume that Christ's atonement was for the elect.

You could make a case that His atonement was enough for the whole world but only available to the elect. However, I think this is flawed in that it presumes that God chose the elect after the foundation of the world when scripture teaches that He predestined them before the foundation of the world.

The reformed view is that God had elected those who will be saved therefore Christ's atonement was intended for them.

If you don't accept election then you can be all over the board here.

Just my brain droppings on the subject......

Reformationist · Jul 17, 2003

jesus_freak_for_life said:
Christ died for everyone. He loves everyone.

Okay. I'm guessing by the present percentage of votes that you opted to vote for "To make salvation possible for all people." Is that correct?

When Satan tempted man and caused him to fall

The temptation of satan caused man to fall or did it merely entice him to disobey?

God started to plan atonement, right away.

God planned the atonement after man actually disobeyed? Why did an eternal God wait to plan the atonement until after man fell? The atonement wasn't part of God's eternal plan?

I believe the description in Genesis 3:14-15 matches Jesus getting back at Satan.

What does "getting back at satan" mean? :scratch:

God loves us all

Even the people that the Bible says God hates?

and wants nothing more than fellowship between us and Him.

Does God demand obedience? What about wanting us to fellowship with others? Does God want that?

God does not show favoritism.

Okay.

He was a friend of the sinners.

Was God a "friend" to all sinners?

He desires salvation for all, but it depends on us.

Really??!! Your salvation depends on you? Where is that shown in the Word?

It's a choice WE must make.

So we're saved because we make the choice to be saved?

And hey, that baby is SO precious!

LOL! Thanks. He's also very precocious.

God bless

Reformationist · Jul 17, 2003

Knight said:
You could make a case that His atonement was enough for the whole world but only available to the elect. However, I think this is flawed in that it presumes that God chose the elect after the foundation of the world when scripture teaches that He predestined them before the foundation of the world.

I agree completely. Additionally, to say something is done for everyone but the effects of that action are "only available" or "only given" to a select few is a contradiction.

God bless

Ioustinos · Jul 17, 2003

Reformationist said:
Hello everyone. I just wanted to discuss people's opinions regarding God's divine purpose in the Atonement.

If you are inclined, feel free to post Scriptural support for your position.

Thanks for your participation,
God bless

Hi Ref!

The eternal purpose in Christ's work of atonement was to bring Glory and Honor unto Himself. God is to be glorified for saving wretched and wicked mankind who supressed His truth and rebelled against Him in their hearts and deeds. Thus upon regeneration man is reconciled to God and is forgiven of their sins, and is imputed the Rigtheousness of Christ, so that man is no longer God's enemy but is one of His Children. Therefore His name is to be glorified and exalted because of His mercy and grace.

This atonement is unlimited in power but is limited in its scope. The Salvation of Christ is powerful enough and effective enough to save all men, but it is limited in its scope to those who were predestined by God before the foundation of the world.

God Bless

Jesaiah

servingtheking · Jul 17, 2003

I believe that Jesus came to make salvation possible for all people.
"It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. I have come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Luke 5:31

Now I see this verse (and others may interpret this differently) that the crucifiction is for all the sinners, not the chosen few.

Reformationist · Jul 17, 2003

servingtheking said:
I believe that Jesus came to make salvation possible for all people.
"It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. I have come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."

Luke 5:31

Now I see this verse (and others may interpret this differently) that the crucifiction is for all the sinners, not the chosen few.

So what you're telling me is that Christ's death actually saved no one by actually atoning for anyone's sins, it just made salvation "possible" for everyone, right?

frost · Jul 17, 2003

If Christ's work on the cross was to save all people, then Christ failed in his job because obviously, there are plenty of folks in hell. Can God fail? Christ died for those he predestined to receive his eternal grace.

Reformationist · Jul 17, 2003

frost said:
If Christ's work on the cross was to save all people, then Christ failed in his job because obviously, there are plenty of folks in hell. Can God fail? Christ died for those he predestined to receive his eternal grace.

I'm sure that I'm biased but this makes sense to me and it actually answers my question. The alternative, which many seem to be fine with accepting, is that God's purpose in sending His Son to die was to save all people but it's okay that God fails as long as human free will is maintained.

Let me reiterate to all who answer the question in my OP is that I'm not asking whether Christ's sacrifice atoned for all or only for some but rather, what was God's purpose in sending His Son.

Thanks,
God bless

CCWoody · Jul 18, 2003

Reformationist said:
Hello everyone. I just wanted to discuss people's opinions regarding God's divine purpose in the Atonement.

Opinions?!? Whatdayawannamakemedo; slap ye?

God's divine purpose in the Atonement; Why glorify Himself!!!
.

Reformationist said:
If you are inclined, feel free to post Scriptural support for your position.

I am so inclined
.

Reformationist said:
Thanks for your participation,
God bless

Don't mention it....

Hebrews 1:1-4 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

When the Father looks on the Son, He beholds the brightness of His own glory and the express image of His own person. When God contemplates His own glory in the image of the Son it brings Him great delight (Isaiah 42:1): Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! The very method with which God has chosen to effect salvation is designed to reveal His own Glory in the Person of the Son.

John 17:4-5
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 12:28-28
"Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."

The purpose of Jesus' death was to glorify the Father. To be willing as the Son of God to suffer the loss of so much glory himself in order to repair the injury done to God's glory by our sin showed how infinitely valuable the glory of God is. To be sure, the death of Christ also shows God's love for us. But we are not at the center.

Far from being the spectator, the Father Himself was the master of ceremonies revealing His glory to the whole world.

God put forward his Son on the cross "to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins" (Romans 3:25). In other words, by forgiving sin in the Old Testament and by tolerating many sinners, God had given the impression that his honor and glory were not of infinite worth. Now to vindicate the honor of His name and the worth of His glory, He required the death of His own Son. Thus Christ suffered and died for the glory of the Father. This demonstrates the righteousness of God, because God's righteousness is His unswerving allegiance to uphold the value of His glory. - John Piper from Desiring God (pg. 264-5)

Christ does not exist to make much about man; to crawl up to him and beg that he should accept Him as Savior lest He invade the citadel of man's free will. Quite the contrary, we exist to make much of and enjoy Him. It is demanded of us. And He has made it so easy. If we would only cast our burdens on Him we would be sustained by Him (Psalm 55:22). If we would only call upon Him we would be delivered and we would Glorify Him (Psalm 50:15). He takes great delight in the display of His grace upon those who delight in Him:

Isaiah 46:1-5
Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast. They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
"Hearken unto Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, who are borne by Me from the belly, who are carried from the womb: And even to your old age I am He, and even to hoary hairs will I carry you. I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
"To whom will ye liken Me and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Luke 22:27
For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.

Our Great God is not like pagan idols. They are a burden. Our God will bear us up and carry us if our delight is in Him. For how can we worship him with our hands? It is our God who gives life and breath and all things. (Acts 17:25) For those of us who eagerly wait for Him, He prepares a table for us in the presence of our enemies (Psalm 23:5).

We delight ourselves in Him; He gets Glory.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

servingtheking · Jul 18, 2003

frost said:
If Christ's work on the cross was to save all people, then Christ failed in his job because obviously, there are plenty of folks in hell. Can God fail? Christ died for those he predestined to receive his eternal grace.

Indeed there are a lot of people in hell, or at least I would imagine so. This doesn't mean that He failed in his work, or that Christ didn't make salvation possible for all people. Some people don't except Christ as their savior. If you argue that they couldn't then doesn't that mean that humans have no free will?

Reformationist · Jul 18, 2003

Thanks Woody. Nicely said.

Reformationist · Jul 18, 2003

servingtheking said:
Indeed there are a lot of people in hell, or at least I would imagine so. This doesn't mean that He failed in his work, or that Christ didn't make salvation possible for all people. Some people don't except Christ as their savior. If you argue that they couldn't then doesn't that mean that humans have no free will?

Let's get a bit more specific. Answer these pointed questions:

Was God's intent in sending His Son to save all people? If not, please tell me what God's intent in sending His Son was.

Was He successful in accomplishing His intent?

If you believe that Christ died only to make salvation "possible" then did Christ, by dying, save anyone?

If you answered "no" to the above question, please tell me what needs to be added to Christ's work of obedience (obeying the Law at every point and then dying as an innocent) to make salvation actual in the life of the believer.

Thanks,
God bless

servingtheking · Jul 19, 2003

I messed up this post and I am going to try it again.

servingtheking · Jul 19, 2003

Reformationist said:
Was God's intent in sending His Son to save all people? If not, please tell me what God's intent in sending His Son was.

The intent was to make salvation possible for all people, even if only a few accept it.

Reformationist said:
Was He successful in accomplishing His intent?

Yes anyone that truly accepts Christ as their savior recieves salvation.

Reformationist said:
If you believe that Christ died only to make salvation "possible" then did Christ, by dying, save anyone?

Excellent question reformationist, I believe that he only saved those that accept him. He makes salvation possible for all people through his death, and saves those who accept him as their savior. I honestly think that a solid argument can be made for either opinion.

Grace_Alone4gives · Jul 19, 2003

The more I read on..the more I am inclined to agree with Ref, Knight and Obi-wan(Woody)...still learning though, and may never make up my mind completely.....Thank God for His Grace :pray:

Reader Nilus · Jul 19, 2003

Jesus death and resurrection saved all people, it is the individual who can accept that or reject that, but it is also the individual who chooses hell on their own.
Jeff the Finn

Drotar · Jul 20, 2003

Reformationist said:
If you are inclined, feel free to post Scriptural support for your position.

Thanks for your participation,
God bless

It's what we live for.

To put things in perspective, Lorraine Boettner wrote my favorite lines from all his writings:

Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons...while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that it in itself does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it qualitatively but not quantitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively but not quantitatively... As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ that does the Calvinist. (153)

To be precise, no matter what belief you hold, you cannot escape believing in a limited atonement.

By His knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities. -Isaiah 53:11

And she will bring forth a Son, and you will call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins. -Matthew 1:21

Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many. -Matthew 20:28

For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. -Matthew 26:28

For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many. -Mark 10:45

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. -John 10:11

Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of the Lord and God which He purchased with His own blood. -Acts 20:28

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. -Ephesians 5:25

Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. -Titus 2:14

So Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. -Hebrews 9:28

The key is who Christ died for. As for the verses that say all or world, those two words are used figuratively more often than any others that I know. For example, see John 12:19 or Luke 2:1. These read: The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, You see that you are accomplishing nothing. Look, the world has gone after Him! , etc. TI's simply a way of saying that the elect that will be saved is a braod number from all over the world.

The real issue here is what denying limited atonement does to your belief about the atonement and work and person of Jesus Christ. It changes the way you look at the powre and sovereignty of God. Did God or didn't he succeed at what He intended to do wholeheartedly? TTYL Jesus loves you!

Drotar · Jul 20, 2003

CCWoody said:
Hebrews 1:1-4 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

When the Father looks on the Son, He beholds the brightness of His own glory and the express image of His own person. When God contemplates His own glory in the image of the Son it brings Him great delight (Isaiah 42:1):

Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights!

The very method with which God has chosen to effect salvation is designed to reveal His own Glory in the Person of the Son.

John 17:4-5
I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 12:28-28
"Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."

The purpose of Jesus' death was to glorify the Father. To be willing as the Son of God to suffer the loss of so much glory himself in order to repair the injury done to God's glory by our sin showed how infinitely valuable the glory of God is. To be sure, the death of Christ also shows God's love for us. But we are not at the center.

Christ does not exist to make much about man; to crawl up to him and beg that he should accept Him as Savior lest He invade the citadel of man's free will. Quite the contrary, we exist to make much of and enjoy Him. It is demanded of us. And He has made it so easy. If we would only cast our burdens on Him we would be sustained by Him (Psalm 55:22). If we would only call upon Him we would be delivered and we would Glorify Him (Psalm 50:15). He takes great delight in the display of His grace upon those who delight in Him:

Isaiah 46:1-5
Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast. They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
"Hearken unto Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, who are borne by Me from the belly, who are carried from the womb: And even to your old age I am He, and even to hoary hairs will I carry you. I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

"To whom will ye liken Me and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Luke 22:27
For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves

Our Great God is not like pagan idols. They are a burden. Our God will bear us up and carry us if our delight is in Him. For how can we worship him with our hands? It is our God who gives life and breath and all things. (Acts 17:25) For those of us who eagerly wait for Him, He prepares a table for us in the presence of our enemies (Psalm 23:5).

We delight ourselves in Him; He gets Glory.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

AMEN. THAT'S God-centered theology!

What was God's eternal purpose in Christ's atonment?

What was God's eternal purpose in Christ's Atonement?

To make salvation possible for all people

To make salvation actual for all people

To make salvation possible for His elect

To make salvation actual for His elect

Other (please explain)

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