Capital Punishment, Are we playing God when it comes to Killing someone?

hotmetal said:

If somebody can give me New Testament scripture to say that we're allowed to judge people to Death, I will willingly support Capital Punishment.

God Bless, metal.

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Instead of saying "somone show me this" get your nose in the bible and look for it. God will Show you what is true...but you cant just sit around and wait for it to happen...youll never get anywhere that way

The New Testament does not tend to discuss with civil crimes andappropriate penalties as they would have been dealt with by the state. The New Testament is concerned with the message of the gospel and how we should live as Christians, both as individuals and in community (church) with other Christians.

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So if its not in the NT, then its not applicable to our lives?

Today when the ethos of our society has been developed by Christian principles such as mercy, forgiveness, the sanctity of human life, the need to limit punishment and not use it simply to take revenge, it is valid to bring these principles into the law book, too.

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Is Capital Punishment "revenge"? Isn't it considered "justice"? Isn't it considered "administering justice when rights are violated"?

The Old Testament can be used to justify capital punishment, but it also justifies things like stoning adulterers and disobedient sons, and it is no longer a reliable guide to what punishment is appropriate in a civilised Christian country.

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Was God all wrong in the OT then? Is the OT (part of the Word of God) unreliable
nowadays?
Are we more civilized now than then? With divorce rates, murder rates and all the other rates where they are at?

We have courts and prisons in order to establish who is guilty of the crimes they are accused of and, if found guilty what punishment best fits their crime and if society needs to be protected from the criminal. A life sentence in a secure prison ensures dangerous criminals can no longer harm anyone.

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The only problem I have with this is that, as a taxpayer, I have to provide (without any option from the gov.) food, board, and entertainment to these criminals who have violated rights of others.

The trouble with capital punishment is that you cannot bring anyone back to life if they turn out to be innocent after all, and there have been many miscarriages of justice, and in some cases the falsely accused have been executed. It is because it is impossible to be certain beyond all doubt of someone's guilt that we no longer have the death penalty in Britain.

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Do we have to be certain beyond ALL doubt? I believe the term is "reasonable doubt." No one could be completely certain whether OJ Simpson committed murder or not, but there was a HUGE amount of evidence against him. The reason he could get off the way he did was because he could afford all the big lawyers.

septembers_crash said:

So if its not in the NT, then its not applicable to our lives?

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By and large, yes. We are Christians, not Jews. We follow Christ; his example and teachings.

Is Capital Punishment "revenge"? Isn't it considered "justice"? Isn't it considered "administering justice when rights are violated"?

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There is no need for capital punishment when we have secure prisons. Surely Christians hope to redeem the offender as well as punish him/her. Capital punishment removes any hope od redemption, cannot be reversed if new evidence shows the convicted man/woman was in fact innocent after all, and quite frankly it does smack of revenge.

Was God all wrong in the OT then? Is the OT (part of the Word of God) unreliable nowadays?

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Jesus showed us a way beyond the limitation of justice found in the Old Testament and cam to open our eyes to God's mercy and grace, which those who follow him are required to show to others.

Are we more civilized now than then? With divorce rates, murder rates and all the other rates where they are at?

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Chances are these rates are lower than they were in Jesus' day. Non-Christians, and sometimes even Christians will do these things, it's part of being human. It is the way we deal with these people that shows whether or not we are civilised and Christians.

The only problem I have with this is that, as a taxpayer, I have to provide (without any option from the gov.) food, board, and entertainment to these criminals who have violated rights of others.

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That's the price of civilised Christian society: these people are your neighbours, maybe even your brothers and sisters.

Do we have to be certain beyond ALL doubt?

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Of course we do, if we are considering the taking of a life! Do you not consider every human life to be precious to God? The poor black guy and the poor white girl should not have their lives taken just because they can't afford fancy lawyers.

Karin

Greetings kimber1,

It is unfortunate that you don't give God enough credit and man too much credit in his personal salvation. God is sovereign over the affairs of man and all who ever will belong to Jesus - He will not allow to die until that person is sealed and delivered. You might be surprised to learn that the Noahic Covenant has NEVER been rescinded and this is a part of it:

Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Genesis 9:13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

There is a verse elsewhere, which I can't find at the moment, that tells us that if we do not carry out the "death penalty" on those who deserve it, our land shall become cursed. As long as there is a "rainbow" in the sky, you shall know that the Noahic Covenant has not been rescinded, for it is a perpetual covenant for all time.

All I can hope for you is that you and others who believe as you do are not the ones responsible for bringing God's curse against our land.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

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how am i not giving God credit? all i'm saying is these prisoners have the right to repent of their sins before death. if we "flip the switch" before they have that opportunity are we not just as murderous as they? we cut their eternal life short. and yes, i think we "play God".
as for all the money spent on prisoners and such, one thing i think is prisoners get way more in prison these days than neccessary. they don't need all the fnacy things and such. cut costs there, give them the basic neccessities but also give them the right to repent. they need ministering to more so than most. the crimes they committed landing them in prison are horrendous to be sure, BUT God is merciful with each adn every one of us. and we have NO right to snuff out the life that God created.

Treasure the Questions said:

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So if its not in the NT, then its not applicable to our lives?

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By and large, yes. We are Christians, not Jews. We follow Christ; his example and teachings.

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No, we are obliged to follow God's law which he revealed to the Jews (not the religious practices but the moral law). Jesus obeyed God, so looking to His example is a good idea, but Jesus was in a particular situation - we aren't to try to be like Jesus in every respect. Jesus also spoke about the law and its interpretation; however He didn't repeat it all, so you can't just rely on His teaching but need to go to the Old Testament too.

Jesus showed us a way beyond the limitation of justice found in the Old Testament and cam to open our eyes to God's mercy and grace, which those who follow him are required to show to others.

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That's right. But the principle which underlies capital punishment in the Old Testament is still true today - that the wages of sin is death. True, we should show mercy to people and it's not our responsibility to judge them. But we need to consider that
1. Conveying the truth to society that crimes deserve death is valuable - indeed it is the precondition of the gospel
2. Criminals are given opportunity to repent and turn to Christ. Perhaps some would have done this later if they had not been executed, but also perhaps some would not have done this if there weren't the prospect of execution.

hotmetal said:

If somebody can give me New Testament scripture to say that we're allowed to judge people to Death, I will willingly support Capital Punishment.

God Bless, metal.

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Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. Paul admitted that some things were "worthy of death," and that he was willing to "die" if he was guilty of such an offense. If the death penalty is not for today, then why didn't Paul tell us?

Romans 13:1-4: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

I have no problem with the notion of capital punishment. However, I do believe that the current state of the American legal system makes me against as such except in the most obvious, open/shut cases. Is there not something in the Old Testament that says there must be at least two witnesses to the murder? I think if we heed the "advice" of OT burden of proof (in addition to modern day DNA analysis, etc.?), we'd be the much better for it.

But I could be wrong . . .

a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

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but wrath does not equate murder

TwinCrier said:

Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. Paul admitted that some things were "worthy of death," and that he was willing to "die" if he was guilty of such an offense. If the death penalty is not for today, then why didn't Paul tell us?

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Because he wasn't talking to us, he was talking to Festus. He wanted to be sent to Rome to be tried by the emperor. Denying the emperor's right to impose the death penalty wouldn't have helped his case.

Bingley said:

Because he wasn't talking to us, he was talking to Festus. He wanted to be sent to Rome to be tried by the emperor. Denying the emperor's right to impose the death penalty wouldn't have helped his case.

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How do you explain Paul defending the government's right to execute when he wrote to the Roman believers in Romans 13? Was that a cynical ploy to "help his case"?

I was simply replying to TwinCrier's citation of the passage in Acts and saying that I don't think it can be used the way he wants to use it.

Romans 13:1-7

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (NIV)

The main point here seems to be that Christians should obey the govt. Naturally Paul phrases it terms of the govt. in force at that time, which as it happens did use the death penalty.

The passage doesn't say all governments must inflict the death penalty. Since we have prisons which are more secure than anything that was available then, i don't see that the death penalty is necessary these days. There may be situations I haven't thought of where the death penalty might prove to be necessary, so I'm quite ok for it to be kept in reserve but rarely if ever used rather than outright abolished.

Bingley said:

I was simply replying to TwinCrier's citation of the passage in Acts and saying that I don't think it can be used the way he wants to use it.

Romans 13:1-7

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. (NIV)

The main point here seems to be that Christians should obey the govt. Naturally Paul phrases it terms of the govt. in force at that time, which as it happens did use the death penalty.

The passage doesn't say all governments must inflict the death penalty. Since we have prisons which are more secure than anything that was available then, i don't see that the death penalty is necessary these days. There may be situations I haven't thought of where the death penalty might prove to be necessary, so I'm quite ok for it to be kept in reserve but rarely if ever used rather than outright abolished.

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Please reread the passage. Paul's "main point" may be that we are to obey the government (when it doesn't force us to disobey God), but Paul tells us WHY -- because the government is established by God Himself and that its officials are "God's ministers" for our good. Paul also gives us the parameters of the authority God gives these governments -- the executioner's sword. This means that all God-ordained governments MAY employ the death penalty in doing the service God designed them for, but nothing here says they MUST. (A case for "must" can be made biblically, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.)

So, we must understand that while Paul had a "main point" he also had an explanation that is also "God breathed" of the reason for that point. Paul's words are not merely for the government "of that time" else we can simply toss the Scriptures as outdated, archaic writings of a time long past. The Bible would be useless.

Anti-Fear said:

Also the thing is, in USA, the capital punishment is only given to those who have been proven to have committed a pre-meditated murder. But, its not given to all murderers like that but only to those who have commmitted exceptionally violent crimes.

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I only wish that were the case. Do you know what the sentence is for cowardice in the military? The death penalty.We also execute the mentally handicapped and juveniles here in the US.
As for the subject in general, I would say that capital punishment, like abortion and war of aggression goes beyond the reasonable power of the sword. Also I try always to remember [bible]Romans 6:22-24[/bible]
We are all deserving of death, but God, in His mercy has provided us with the gift of eternal life in Christ.
For what it is worth.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.

Matthew 15:3-4 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
JESUS SAID THAT!
Mark 7:9-10 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Jesus reaffirmed the capital statutes of God's law. Not only the murderer (Rev. 13:10; 1 Tim. 1:8-9; Rom. 13:4), but even the one who curses a parent must be put to death (Ex. 21:17 and Lev. 20:9) just as God commanded.

Robert43 said:

Do we have the right to kill someone for a crime?
Robert.

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Hi Robert,
I don't believe so.
I think it would be more indicative of our inhumanity than the killers...we become less human as a result.

Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is not right?

David

Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is not right?

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well said

dnich163 said:

Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is not right?

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Because God commanded it and instituted the government to carry it out. What else of God's Word do you disobey? Even Jesus acknowledged to Pilate that God gave him the authority and power over life and death.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

dnich163 said:

Hi Robert,
I don't believe so.
I think it would be more indicative of our inhumanity than the killers...we become less human as a result.

Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is not right?

David

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Please don't resurrect that old saw. The death penalty is proof of the value we place on human life. If someone murders, they forfeit their own life to show that murder is completely unacceptable. If we do less, we say the victim's life was worth less -- or even worthless.

God kills to show people that murder is wrong. He commanded Israel to do so. Murder and killing are very different. Are you suggesting that God was inhuman or inhumane because He condemns murderers to death?

The eye for an eye principle is not one which justifies vengeance. however, it is one which the court system is meant to be based on. if someone steals something, they must restore what they stole. if someone kills someone, then their own life is forfeit.

what happened to turn the other cheek?