In viewing a number of Preterism web sites, I've come across several preterists who seem to believe in the very disturbing "Heaven Now" theory. From what I can gather, it's the belief that we are now in heaven, and this is as good as it gets. Further, after we die we do not go to heaven (since it's already here,) but instead are somehow absorbed into God, using Ecc. 12:7 as one scriptural reference. I'd like to know if this is mainstream thinking among preterists and if not, what is?
Preterism and the afterlife
- Thread starter frost
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God always had existed from his own transcendent place -- heaven. Verses such as the following speak of this primary dwelling of the Father:
GOD'S TRANSCENDENT HEAVEN
Matthew 5:16
...glorify your Father which is in heaven
Matthew 5:34
Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 6:9-10
therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal
Ephesians 3:15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth); How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Hebrews 9:12,24
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].... For Christ is not [ascended] into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us
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The "heaven" described in those verses predates the material creation, and, in fact, the material creation depends entirely upon that heavenly, invisible realm for existence:
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
We must never confuse God's heaven with the created earth. The entire idea behind our Christian faith is that Heaven's will is to be done: i.e., "thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven". The law, the prophets, Christ, the covenants, and the Church-Temple have all come into the material world to make Heaven's will the standard for redeemed man. To be in the Church, Christ's own body and fulness (Eph 1:22-23), is to be participating in Heavenly things (Eph 1:3, 1:20, 2:6,). And to pass from earth is to experience the eternal reward of God's transcendent, unspeakable, heaven.
So while the heavenly realm intersects and revolutionizes the created material order, there is always a distinction between God's transcendent heaven and the material cosmos.
GOD'S TRANSCENDENT HEAVEN
Matthew 5:16
...glorify your Father which is in heaven
Matthew 5:34
Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 6:9-10
therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal
Ephesians 3:15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth); How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Hebrews 9:12,24
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].... For Christ is not [ascended] into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us
The "heaven" described in those verses predates the material creation, and, in fact, the material creation depends entirely upon that heavenly, invisible realm for existence:
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
We must never confuse God's heaven with the created earth. The entire idea behind our Christian faith is that Heaven's will is to be done: i.e., "thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven". The law, the prophets, Christ, the covenants, and the Church-Temple have all come into the material world to make Heaven's will the standard for redeemed man. To be in the Church, Christ's own body and fulness (Eph 1:22-23), is to be participating in Heavenly things (Eph 1:3, 1:20, 2:6,). And to pass from earth is to experience the eternal reward of God's transcendent, unspeakable, heaven.
So while the heavenly realm intersects and revolutionizes the created material order, there is always a distinction between God's transcendent heaven and the material cosmos.
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This Scripture comes to mind when thinking about this:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
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Phoenix said:
I thought of that one too as I was reading that article. In fact there are several verses that seem to contradict the Heaven Now idea. It's amazing (and unsettling,) how scripture can be distorted to mean basically anything one likes.
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That's one thing i'm finding out frost,
But's an easy thing to do. Although they are certainly different subjects, look at what happens to the context of Revelation. Nuclear weapons, Apache helicopters, bombs and all kinds of wild things are thought to represent the symbolism. I am not a full preterist, as of yet anyway, however, one of the things that i've learned from GW and P70 and others is that you have to change your mindset from a 20th century American to a first century Jew. Reading the Bible in the context it was written as it may have applied to the original audience is tough to do, and something i dont think a lot of people keep in mind. Ok !! So now i'm rambling a bit but i hope you see the point.
But's an easy thing to do. Although they are certainly different subjects, look at what happens to the context of Revelation. Nuclear weapons, Apache helicopters, bombs and all kinds of wild things are thought to represent the symbolism. I am not a full preterist, as of yet anyway, however, one of the things that i've learned from GW and P70 and others is that you have to change your mindset from a 20th century American to a first century Jew. Reading the Bible in the context it was written as it may have applied to the original audience is tough to do, and something i dont think a lot of people keep in mind. Ok !! So now i'm rambling a bit but i hope you see the point.
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revelation does have alot of simbalism though you have to agree like wityh the dragon and stuff i dont know of anyone that would follow a literal dragon.
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OldShepherd
Zaqunraah
Phoenix said:That's one thing i'm finding out frost,
But's an easy thing to do. Although they are certainly different subjects, look at what happens to the context of Revelation. Nuclear weapons, Apache helicopters, bombs and all kinds of wild things are thought to represent the symbolism. I am not a full preterist, as of yet anyway, however, one of the things that i've learned from GW and P70 and others is that you have to change your mindset from a 20th century American to a first century Jew. Reading the Bible in the context it was written as it may have applied to the original audience is tough to do, and something i dont think a lot of people keep in mind. Ok !! So now i'm rambling a bit but i hope you see the point.
"you have to change your mindset from a 20th century American to a first century Jew." [size=+1][font=georgia, times new roman]I agree with this but it has been my experience here that when I bring up actual writings from first century Judaism, such as the Jewish Encyclopedia, published in 1910, which quotes writings from the Pre- and early Christian era, such as the Talmud and Targums, they are scoffed at and dismissed because they ARE Jewish writings and not Christian. How can someone say they are looking at the scriptures with a first century Jewish mindset when they reject the only writings which will give reveal that mindset to them? So the result is they read the scriptures with their 20th, now 21st, century presuppositions and assumptions.[/size][/font]
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Hi OS,
As an example, how would all your sources interpret this verse from Hebrews 9, with special attention to the 'ages' part?
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Justme
As an example, how would all your sources interpret this verse from Hebrews 9, with special attention to the 'ages' part?
26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Justme
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Justme said:
This is a really great point. Old Shep's Jewish sources don't share much in common with the views and hermeneutic of the Jewish apostles and the Jewish Christ.
In fact, there were many religious movements in Israel at the time. And while most of them were steeped in apocalyptic furvor and urgently raising up and promoting various Jewish messiahs, the groups all had divergent views from each other -- they were competing factions. There was no 'Jewish consensus' of the 1st century, as perhaps Old Shep seems to be suggesting. And, the views of the INSPIRED apostles trump all other 1st century Jewish views anyway.
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This is not totally related to the topic, but I didn't feel it needed it's own thread. The following was posted by someone else in a different forum but I'd like the preterist position on the question.
Thanks
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frost said:
My belief is that this miracle was like Lazarus -- it was a temporal resurrection, and, in the end, they all died a second time as did Lazarus. Lazarus did not experience the specific resurrection of the dead known as the "better resurrection," Christ's resurrection (Hebrews 11:35).
All we know is that certain of the Jews that had died came out of tombs, and from there they went to Jerusalem to testify of their miraculous revivals. We really don't know much about them, but I suspect they were recently deceased relatives of families in Jerusalem, and that they stayed with the Church headquartered in Jerusalem.
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Hi OS .. Is there a link that you could post for this ? I'm gone tomorrow for a week, but i'd like to check it out when i get back.
Thanks
Edit:
Maybe this is it:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/index.jsp
I checked a few things out, i cant even read any more. Granted, i guess the Jewish opinion of Christianity is somewhat lacking but wow !! Use the search on Paul or Messiah
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