How I came to embrace Preterism.

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GW

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FROST:
Nikolai has a good point here. Sure, the gospel is spreading into more parts of the world but society in the moral sense seems to be getting worse.

GW:
Compared to the state of the planet 2000 years ago, there is no question that both the moral sense and the covenantal reality of nations have been radically changed for the better by Christ and the Church. Here's a great quote from David Chilton about the progress of Christendom:

"Examples could be multiplied in every field. The whole rise of Western Civilization - science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women - is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings." - David Chilton




FROST:
Just look at how liberalism and anti-christian beliefs have changed this country.

GW:
Well, just look at how Christian post- and a-millennialists built this great country!

And, sadly, just look at how Christian dispensationalists abandoned this country. Since the mid-1800s, C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed "according to the bible." They even taught that voting and participation in civil duties were pointless. Such "prophetic inevitibility" and doomsaying doesn't create kingdom-buliders like Moses or Paul or George Washington--it creates only visionless do-nothing Christians. Only kingdom-advancing views such as preterism, postmillennialism, and certain ranks of amillennialism will be able to save our country and empower Christians to build newer and more godly ones for the future. America wasn't built by dispensationalists, but it sure has been hurt by them. Their theology of defeat must be resisted and trumped by the victorious truth about Christ and the kingdom.


FROST:
The crime rate going up, church attendance going down, no more prayer in school, gay marriages, the Supreme Court deciding whether or not God should be in the Pledge of Allegience, etc, etc. Surely we can agree on this downward trend and it doesn't speak kindly for the "new heavens and earth."

GW:
It doesn't speak kindly for the cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction of duty dispensationalists have taught to our country and the Church. Endtimes madness--like that which paralyzes most futurists and prevents them from experiencing the victory of our faith--must be ended if America is to return to her great heritage. The heathen liberals aren't supermen, they're just plain old pagans who believe there is a future, and that the future belongs to anyone with the courage to fight for it. We must not be fooled by the cowardly Christians that say "b-b-but...there are giants in the land! Only the Rapture can save us!"
 
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frost

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GW said:
FROST:
Nikolai has a good point here. Sure, the gospel is spreading into more parts of the world but society in the moral sense seems to be getting worse.

GW:
Compared to the state of the planet 2000 years ago, there is no question that both the moral sense and the covenantal reality of nations have been radically changed for the better by Christ and the Church. Here's a great quote from David Chilton about the progress of Christendom:

"Examples could be multiplied in every field. The whole rise of Western Civilization - science and technology, medicine, the arts, constitutionalism, the jury system, free enterprise, literacy, increasing productivity, a rising standard of living, the high status of women - is attributable to one major fact: the West has been transformed by Christianity. True, the transformation is not yet complete. There are many battles ahead. But the point is that, even in what is still largely an early Christian civilization, God has showered us with blessings." - David Chilton




FROST:
Just look at how liberalism and anti-christian beliefs have changed this country.

GW:
Well, just look at how Christian post- and a-millennialists built this great country!

And, sadly, just look at how Christian dispensationalists abandoned this country. Since the mid-1800s, C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed "according to the bible." They even taught that voting and participation in civil duties were pointless. Such "prophetic inevitibility" and doomsaying doesn't create kingdom-buliders like Moses or Paul or George Washington--it creates only visionless do-nothing Christians. Only kingdom-advancing views such as preterism, postmillennialism, and certain ranks of amillennialism will be able to save our country and empower Christians to build newer and more godly ones for the future. America wasn't built by dispensationalists, but it sure has been hurt by them. Their theology of defeat must be resisted and trumped by the victorious truth about Christ and the kingdom.


FROST:
The crime rate going up, church attendance going down, no more prayer in school, gay marriages, the Supreme Court deciding whether or not God should be in the Pledge of Allegience, etc, etc. Surely we can agree on this downward trend and it doesn't speak kindly for the "new heavens and earth."

GW:
It doesn't speak kindly for the cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction of duty dispensationalists have taught to our country and the Church. Endtimes madness--like that which paralyzes most futurists and prevents them from experiencing the victory of our faith--must be ended if America is to return to her great heritage. The heathen liberals aren't supermen, they're just plain old pagans who believe there is a future, and that the future belongs to anyone with the courage to fight for it. We must not be fooled by the cowardly Christians that say "b-b-but...there are giants in the land! Only the Rapture can save us!"

Gw, you seemed to have missed my point entirely. Futurists are thriving by using the current state of our morality as an indication that the end times are comming. Futurists didnt cause the moral decline, rather the moral decline has given the futurists reason to point to the end times comming soon. And to blame the current moral decline on futurists is obsurd. The main reason is that, sadly, God is slowly becomming obsolete to a lot of people in the country and Christianity is becomming a dirty word. Further, if you cannot see the obvious moral decline in our country than I'd say you are seeing life through rose colored glasses.
 
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GW

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FROST:
Gw, you seemed to have missed my point entirely. Futurists are thriving by using the current state of our morality as an indication that the end times are coming.

GW:
I did not miss your point. Go back and re-read my post.

The liberal trend in America is not due to "being in the end times," nor is it anything new. Heathenism has been around for ever, and it is even in the "New Heavens and Earth" in restricted fashion as God intends (see Rev 22:14-15). However, let's not forget that even heathenism was far worse 2000 years ago--e.g., when was the last time you took a blood bath in bull's blood or crowded the local stadium to cheer on the lions verses the humans? Or do you just watch evil, wicked...baseball???

Frost, today's trend away from a Christianized America is due to dispensationalist teaching that "Christians cannot lead and rule in any victorious way because the endtimes are here." Dispensationalists are actually hoping the end of America comes (see Hal Lindsey, Van Impe etc), for they believe it is a sign of the impending "rapture." Treasonous, for sure.

The trend away from a more Christianized America is also due to the failure of Christ to honor the false teachings of futurism by not returning when and how they teach--their "last-days converts" lose hope, and they receive no purpose from their pastors but to wait for the end (which isn't coming).

Ultimately, fatalism is the real teaching of futurism, and it makes for do-nothing believers that don't hold office, don't seek leadership of the country, don't fulfill their duty to Christ's Kingdom, don't prepare their children for ruling society, don't keep married to their wives in Christ, etc. etc..


FROST:
Futurists didnt cause the moral decline, rather the moral decline has given the futurists reason to point to the end times comming soon.

GW:
Heathen haven't changed. American Christianity changed. Evangelical Christians gave themselves over to false teachings of an impending end back in 1820-1860, and they have continued to teach and believe and act upon that nonsense ever since, and in ever increasing numbers. (They are even responsible for the creation of the JWs, the Mormons, and the 7th-Day Adventists.) Dispensationalists abandoned America, and taught their converts to abandon America. She lies abandoned by the very people who are commanded to rule her.


FROST:
God is slowly becoming obsolete to a lot of people in the country

GW:
The god of dispensationalist teaching is obsolete and powerless. The God of historic Christianity is ever-relevant, and his gospel imperialistic--even kings and presidents must surrender to it.
 
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frost

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The liberal trend in America is not due to "being in the end times," nor is it anything new.

I never said it was due to being in the end times. Please re-read my post and see what my explanation was.

Heathenism has been around for ever, and it is even in the "New Heavens and Earth" in restricted fashion as God intends (see Rev 22:14-15). However, let's not forget that even heathenism was far worse 2000 years ago--e.g., when was the last time you took a blood bath in bull's blood or crowded the local stadium to cheer on the lions verses the humans? Or do you just watch evil, wicked...baseball???

We have become more civilized and place a greater value on life since 2000 years ago, yes. But, that does not explain why we are currently going backwards from say, 50 years ago. Should the new heavens and earth be allowed to do that? Isn't the idea that things get better not worse? If things get so bad that America crumbles (for whatever reason,) and we get taken over by some Muslim nation, are we still in the new heavens and earth? Well, that doesn't sound so great to me.

Dispensationalists are actually hoping the end of America comes (see Hal Lindsey, Van Impe etc), for they believe it is a sign of the impending "rapture." Treasonous, for sure.

I agree with this. However, you cannot lump all of non-preterism folks in with the likes of Jack Van Impe. He represents a small minority of all the American Christians.

The trend away from a more Christianized America is also due to the failure of Christ to honor the false teachings of futurism by not returning when and how they teach--their "last-days converts" lose hope, and they receive no purpose from their pastors but to wait for the end (which isn't coming).

So Jesus is to blame? Not sure I follow you on this.

Ultimately, fatalism is the real teaching of futurism, and it makes for do-nothing believers that don't hold office, don't seek leadership of the country, don't fulfill their duty to Christ's Kingdom, don't prepare their children for ruling society, don't keep married to their wives in Christ, etc. etc..

GW, I don't think preterism will cure the ails of these people you speak of. Their problem is that their relationship Christ is not foremost in their life and they would rather seek thier own desires rather than those of God. Being a futurist for all my Christian life, I can tell you that the rapture is not all they think about. Most real Christians just want to please their Lord and try to live their life the best they can. Even if they are mislead as to when The End is comming, that does not make them any less usefull to God. I'm sorry but I cannot agree that this downward trend in America is because of misled Christians. It's the fault non-Chrsitians. After all, non-Christians could care less about Van Impe, they just laugh at him. No, what threatens them is Jesus exposing their sin so they seek to drive Him out.



Heathen haven't changed. American Christianity changed. Evangelical Christians gave themselves over to false teachings of an impending end back in 1820-1860, and they have continued to teach and believe and act upon that nonsense ever since, and in ever increasing numbers. (They are even responsible for the creation of the JWs, the Mormons, and the 7th-Day Adventists.) Dispensationalists abandoned America, and taught their converts to abandon America. She lies abandoned by the very people who are commanded to rule her.

I'll have to chew on this for a bit. (literally, it's supper time.) :)
 
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GW

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FROST:
We have become more civilized and place a greater value on life since 2000 years ago, yes.

GW:
Glad we agree. History is fully behind us on this. Remember, just 2,000 years ago there were zero peoples outside of Israel that were permitted access to God. Think about that for a while.


FROST:
But, that does not explain why we are currently going backwards from say, 50 years ago.

GW:
The Kingdom is covenantal, containing promise and obligation. God's people are obligated to rule over lands and govern them as sharing Christ's own dominon, and to work to make God's laws the "law of the land." When Christians have faith and obedience, they are the head and not the tail. Unfortunately, dispensationalism teaches the church is a mere "parenthesis" in time, not having any real rights or dominion over the land until the second coming.

The only reason America seems less godly is because Christians gave up their duty to the schools, the culture, and the government starting back in the 1800s because we were supposedly "living in the last days." Christians must now again, by faith, take on the duties of ruling and reigning--we must never again abdicate responsibilities of government or education or media to the heathen. United we stand.

Yet, even if America should ever go the way of ancient Rome, Greece, or Persia, God will raise up other nations as always. The only nation promised eternal presence is Christ's nation, the Church, which is ultimately not geographically restricted.


FROST:
Should the new heavens and earth be allowed to do that?

GW:
While we must never confuse earth with God's transcendent heaven ("the place where thieves dont break in and where moths don't eat away"), the purpose of the Kingdom of God is "that Thy will be done on earth like in heaven." That's the business of the Church and its people. Will there still be thieves that break in on earth? Yes (Rev 22:14-15). But, the Church puts down evil everywhere that it is united to do God's will -- in our familes, our jobs, our countries, our societies. Every Church should have clear agendas and multiplied coalition partners in government, education, the arts, business, etc to establish a righteous, godly America and world. If the Church would unite in any way like the gay activists and liberals do, we'd have total control back over our country in mere minutes, and the laws would change to reflect the Church's agenda and dominance.


FROST:
Isn't the idea that things get better not worse?

GW:
Not by random time and chance, but rather by people of faith and courage like Moses, David, Deborah, and the great saints of our history--by people of vision and of the Kingdom.


FROST:
If things get so bad that America crumbles (for whatever reason,) and we get taken over by some Muslim nation, are we still in the new heavens and earth? Well, that doesn't sound so great to me.

GW:
Again, the Church is the only Nation of Christ that goes on forever, and the Chuch will never crumble (Matt 16:18-19;Eph 3:9-11,21). However, geo-political nations do come and go, for our God "sets up kings and puts them down" (Dan 2:21)... for God "is the supreme governor among the nations" (Ps 22:28)... for our God "rules over all the kingdoms of the heathen so none is able to withstand Him" (2 Chronicles 20:6)... and His "is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is His; His is the kingdom" (1 Chronicles 29:11). That is the gospel. That is the rule of law for mankind. That is the reality of the kingdom. The Church was given dominion over all the universe by divine right (Rom 4:12-18; Matt 28:18/Dan 7:14,27; Matt 5:5), and the world belongs to us (1 Cor 3:22) -- but, as with Joshua, the people of God must take it all by faith (1 Jn 5:4).



FROST:
I agree with this. However, you cannot lump all of non-preterism folks in with the likes of Jack Van Impe. He represents a small minority of all the American Christians.

GW:
The vast majority of American evangelicals are dispensationalists, and they have been taught that America is doomed by God's will because we are in the last days. This has been their gospel for at least the past 100 years, and so those evangelicals and their kids and their grandkids were taught not to govern, run cities, play baseball, launch universities, or even get into media to fulfill one's duty to Christ. Mere personal piety was taught, the kind that doesn't affect anyone or anything else.



FROST:
GW, I don't think preterism will cure the ails of these people you speak of.

GW:
Ideas have consequences. Dispensationalist ideas have disastrous consequences (withdrawal, abandonment, escapism, surrender).


FROST:
Their problem is that their relationship Christ is not foremost in their life and they would rather seek thier own desires rather than those of God.

GW:
Their problem is that dispensationalists were taught a castrated, reduced gospel so that they don't even know what it means to have Christ govern their lives, marriages, jobs, society, and country. Moses understood what it meant to have Christ govern lives, societies, families and country. So did Joshua. And David. And the apostles. And King Jesus. And even many of the fathers of America.


FROST:
Most real Christians just want to please their Lord and try to live their life the best they can.

GW:
I agree. That's why there is so much hope to get Christians back in the game to win. Nearly all converts are willing, but they are often without vision from their endtimes pastors who have abandoned America due to some foolish "prophetic inevitability." We have to change the faithless cowardice of our abandonment clergy that are too drunk on endtimes wine to carry out their duties to the country.


FROST:
It's the fault of non-Chrsitians.

GW:
God did not give charge over the earth to the heathen. He gave it to His people. God's people alone are the rightful citizens of the Kingdom and the stewards of the world.

God bless. : )
 
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OldShepherd

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GW said:
FROST:

GW:
Well, just look at how Christian post- and a-millennialists built this great country!

And, sadly, just look at how Christian dispensationalists abandoned this country. Since the mid-1800s, C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed "according to the bible." They even taught that voting and participation in civil duties were pointless. Such "prophetic inevitibility" and doomsaying doesn't create kingdom-buliders like Moses or Paul or George Washington--it creates only visionless do-nothing Christians. Only kingdom-advancing views such as preterism, postmillennialism, and certain ranks of amillennialism will be able to save our country and empower Christians to build newer and more godly ones for the future. America wasn't built by dispensationalists, but it sure has been hurt by them. Their theology of defeat must be resisted and trumped by the victorious truth about Christ and the kingdom.

GW:
It doesn't speak kindly for the cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction of duty dispensationalists have taught to our country and the Church. Endtimes madness--like that which paralyzes most futurists and prevents them from experiencing the victory of our faith--must be ended if America is to return to her great heritage. The heathen liberals aren't supermen, they're just plain old pagans who believe there is a future, and that the future belongs to anyone with the courage to fight for it. We must not be fooled by the cowardly Christians that say "b-b-but...there are giants in the land! Only the Rapture can save us!"

[size=+1][font=georgia,times new roman]Do you have any kind of evidence or documentation for these attacks on Christianity?[/font][/size] " C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed", "visionless do-nothing Christians." "cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction cowardly Christians", "theology of defeat"
 
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OldShepherd

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GW said:
FROST:

GW:

"castrated, reduced gospel"

"endtimes pastors who have abandoned America due to some foolish "prophetic inevitability."

"faithless cowardice"

"our abandonment clergy"

"too drunk on endtimes wine"
[size=+1][font=georgia,times new roman]These statements are violations of rule number #2. Specific assertions of false teaching, misconduct, etc. are permissible if supported from scripture or other sources. Terms, such as stupid, crazy, castrated, cowardice, drunk, etc., any term which would be objectionable if used against yourself, are not permitted.[/font][/size]
[notroll]
 
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GW

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GW:
And, sadly, just look at how Christian dispensationalists abandoned this country. Since the mid-1800s, idiots like C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed "according to the bible."


OLD SHEP:
Do you have any kind of evidence or documentation for these attacks on Christianity? " C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed", "visionless do-nothing Christians." "cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction cowardly Christians", "theology of defeat"


GW:
Sure do.

"In my video, 'Where Is America In Prophecy,' I warned that America will be destroyed as a world power and that terrorism was one way this could happen."

Hal Lindsey; "It has begun"; WorldNetDaily; Sept 12, 2001

That belief is treasonous against America--Mr.Lindsey claims in his million-seller videos and books that God himself has predestined America's defeat. I assure you, it is nowhere taught in the bible. It is a false teaching, and is responsible for the withdrawal of countless evangelicals from civil life and from their kingdom duty unto Christ to run this country.
 
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nikolai_42

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GW said:
GW:
And, sadly, just look at how Christian dispensationalists abandoned this country. Since the mid-1800s, idiots like C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed "according to the bible."


OLD SHEP:
Do you have any kind of evidence or documentation for these attacks on Christianity? "C.I. Scofield and DL Moody and Hal Lindsey have been teaching a message that America is doomed", "visionless do-nothing Christians." "cowardice, abandonment, and dereliction cowardly Christians", "theology of defeat"


GW:
Sure do.



That belief is treasonous against America--Mr.Lindsey claims in his million-seller videos and books that God himself has predestined America's defeat. I assure you, it is nowhere taught in the bible. It is a false teaching, and is responsible for the withdrawal of countless evangelicals from civil life and from their kingdom duty unto Christ to run this country.

I think you are using a man who is built mainly of straw. Hal Lindsey has not had any real credibility for ages. Men like him and Jack Van Impe have made so many wrong predictions that I think they've become more entertainment than anything. Van Impe seems to like to tote RCism and thinks VERY highly of the pope. That's another reason evangelicals don't put a lot of stock in his presentation.

Now, in my understanding, men like John Hagee are more likely to be accepted widely (as per eschatology). Can you use some of his understanding? That reflects more widely the common belief, I think. As far as D.L. Moody goes, he wasn't known for his eschatology, but more for basic evangelizing sinners. And Scofield? He leaned so far towards Rome, he's more RC than anything. Though the Scofield bible has some good insights (too bad he doesn't pursue most of them any further!)
 
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GW

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NIKOLAI:
I think you are using a man who is built mainly of straw. Hal Lindsey has not had any real credibility for ages. Men like him and Jack Van Impe have made so many wrong predictions that I think they've become more entertainment than anything.

GW:
They have controlled the minds of evangelical Christians for decades, and have taught anti-Americanism under the guise of bible prophecy. Their claims about America's prescribed doom are rampant amongst nearly all dispensationalist teachers.


NIKOLAI:
Van Impe seems to like to tote RCism and thinks VERY highly of the pope.

GW:
Are you against the RC and its head pastor? And what does that have to do with our discussion anyway?



NIKOLAI:
Now, in my understanding, men like John Hagee are more likely to be accepted widely (as per eschatology).

GW:
I'm willing to bet he also teaches America is doomed "according to bible prophecy." Such falsehoods are nowhere in scripture. America is nowhere in bible prophecy, a fact that practically affirms the preterist view all by itself. Bible prophecy is not concerned one lick with the EU, the USA, the Middle-East or any other confederation of modern states.

God bless.
 
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nikolai_42

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Phoenix said:
I just thought i'd throw a John Hagee link in here for fun. And yes, America is doomed according to him. The link is through equip.org - great site if you've never been on it.

http://www.equip.org/free/DH005.htm

I'll admit I have serious questions (literal questions) about Hagee, but I understand his message to be the doom of America as brought on by her godlessness. The message would be no different for any other nation that claims to be anything remotely Christian (and I know his stance on evangelizing Jews).
 
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nikolai_42

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GW said:
NIKOLAI:
I think you are using a man who is built mainly of straw. Hal Lindsey has not had any real credibility for ages. Men like him and Jack Van Impe have made so many wrong predictions that I think they've become more entertainment than anything.

GW:
They have controlled the minds of evangelical Christians for decades, and have taught anti-Americanism under the guise of bible prophecy. Their claims about America's prescribed doom are rampant amongst nearly all dispensationalist teachers.

Frankly, I don't understand that, either. And I am closer to being futurist than you are. My belief is that people have become so lazy and complacent with 'success' (which we have on the backs of sacrificing generations before us) that it infiltrates ever facet of life and thought. This is the Laodicean mentality. And I believe it was the reason God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes, homosexuality was a big reason for it, but as the Greek and Roman Civilizations attest, widespread acceptance of homosexuality is a prime indicator that your civ is in the last throes of decline towards obliteration. It's simply historical precedent that tells us that. It's the sign of deep perversion - not the cause.

NIKOLAI:
Van Impe seems to like to tote RCism and thinks VERY highly of the pope.

GW:
Are you against the RC and its head pastor? And what does that have to do with our discussion anyway?

I believe the RC church, in its official stances, promotes such things as idolatry and adultery. And that the office of the papacy is not of the spirit of Christ in any way. Of course, those issues themselves are the topic of a different thread in a different topic.

But I brought it up because the mainstream evangelical crowd you were coming against would have had serious problems with any Romeward leaning as well (as far as I can see). The RC stance on preterism seems to be one of total rejection.

NIKOLAI:
Now, in my understanding, men like John Hagee are more likely to be accepted widely (as per eschatology).

GW:
I'm willing to bet he also teaches America is doomed "according to bible prophecy." Such falsehoods are nowhere in scripture. America is nowhere in bible prophecy, a fact that practically affirms the preterist view all by itself. Bible prophecy is not concerned one lick with the EU, the USA, the Middle-East or any other confederation of modern states.

God bless.

As I responded to Phoenix, I believe the doomsaying preaching of Hagee is rooted in America's moral decline as opposed to any preaching of it from biblical prophecy. I think he believes America to be a God-ordained nation whose founders, though not perfect (who is?) were being guided by the Hand of God. I believe he sees the present moral decline as a sign that judgement will come on America and not a sign that America has always been an inherently anti-Christian nation that has been raised up simply to be destroyed.

I don't agree with his eschatology, either. I originally pointed him out as a reasonably popular figure in evangelical circles as opposed to men like Lindsey or Moody.
 
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Reminder to everyone: Please refrain from flaming other Christians, Christian group, or denomination. You may disagree with their doctrine or beliefs, but name calling is not accepted. Do read the forum rules before posting in the future.

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If you would like gw i can give you the fullness of the role of The United States in the coming times with much exposure to the fine details.
The US is not doomed, in fact Three nations:US, Mexico and Canada will be united as one new United States of North America. Three churches will become one in this nation: Prostestant, Orthodox and Roman Catholic.
But it does not come forth because those nations or those chruches desire it, it comes because same as i was kicked in the rear i will come and kick them in the rear.
i will in all JESUS Class Miracles teach that new nation to do as Jesus would that they do:Turn the other cheek and not oppose evil.
IF they will do this after satan bruises them a third time, then The MIghty Ones of Heaven will come down and unite With this New nation, The MIghty Ones of Earth and together we will with OUR FATHER defeat satan. amen
i have very exhausting details on this, including the new economics, the military and the political aspects.
Nothing excluded. amen
i am nothing0 and 112% correct in all these Spiritual things by The Holy Ghost.
Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
 
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GW

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adelpit346 said:
If you would like gw i can give you the fullness of the role of The United States in the coming times with much exposure to the fine details. The US is not doomed, in fact Three nations...Three churches will...after satan bruises them a third time...

Adelpit,

I'm sure that's all very interesting, but it would take this thread completely off topic. Please consider starting a thread of your own to discuss such things. This thread is about "how people come to embrace biblical preterism."

Thanks, and God bless. We are not in the end times, we are living BEYOND the end times.

GW
 
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nikolai_42

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"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. "
Luke 16:8

This is another clue that 'generation' is not a 30-33 year period, but simply the generation (creation, birth) of man continually. The children of this world in their generation is a perpetual thing, not a singular thing. The children of this world in their generation, makes little sense unless understood as 'the children of this world during their life here on earth'. And life here on earth is translated 'generation'. So this generation is most accurately this 'incarnation' (if you will) of the populating of the earth. A new generation came forth when Noah walked on the earth after the flood, for example. And a new generation will occur after the earth is destroyed by fire (IMO as Peter puts it).
 
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GW

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NIKOLAI:
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. " Luke 16:8

This is another clue that 'generation' is not a 30-33 year period, but simply the generation (creation, birth) of man continually.


GW:
How so? Jesus tells of how a common steward, caught squandering the his master's weath, later goes to great effort to restore his reputation among his contemporaries (his debtors and his master).

Jesus is commending a latent wisdom found in the unjust steward towards his contemporaries. Jesus is using that illustration to teach his followers that they, being concerned with ETERNAL matters of entering Heaven, should use their earthly money for the Kingdom of God and for generosity to others.

The meaning of the parable is clear: if even an unjust businessman could demonstrate prudence in respect to the temporal business matters of his generation, how much more should the followers of Christ demonstrate such prudence in the godly handling of money, because the greater eternal matters of Heaven are at stake for them.
 
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nikolai_42

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GW said:
NIKOLAI:
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light. " Luke 16:8

This is another clue that 'generation' is not a 30-33 year period, but simply the generation (creation, birth) of man continually.


GW:
How so? Jesus tells of how a common steward, caught squandering the his master's weath, later goes to great effort to restore his reputation among his contemporaries (his debtors and his master).

Jesus is commending a latent wisdom found in the unjust steward towards his contemporaries. Jesus is using that illustration to teach his followers that they, being concerned with ETERNAL matters of entering Heaven, should use their earthly money for the Kingdom of God and for generosity to others.

The meaning of the parable is clear: if even an unjust businessman could demonstrate prudence in respect to the temporal business matters of his generation, how much more should the followers of Christ demonstrate such prudence in the godly handling of money, because the greater eternal matters of Heaven are at stake for them.

There is an interesting quote in that passage where Jesus encourages His disciples to make friends of the mammon of unrighteousness that THEY may receive you into eternal dwellings. Not Christ, but they.

Additionally, the word generation here is broad, not specific, because the same is true today - believers use money (generally) with less prudence than do non-believers. So it still applies today (as do other generational characterizations Jesus made). So the conclusion is that one cannot simply conclude that the use of genea means 30-33 years (or any specific time fram).
 
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GW

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NIKOLAI:
Additionally, the word generation here is broad, not specific, because the same is true today - believers use money (generally) with less prudence than do non-believers. So it still applies today (as do other generational characterizations Jesus made). So the conclusion is that one cannot simply conclude that the use of genea means 30-33 years (or any specific time fram).

GW:
The word "generation" is being used to show how the common unjust person acts towards his own "contemporaries" (i.e., his own boss and his debtors), and the lesson hinges upon that time-bound scenario. How does it hinge on this? Namely, since the common unjust person applies such effort towards the contemporary, temporal concerns of his short life, how much more the apostles were to apply their efforts, since their dealings had ETERNAL, HEAVENLY IMPORT. That's the whole point. The contrast hinges on the factor of the TEMPORAL VS. ETERNAL. In this case, the "generation" is the contemporary, temporal scenario. The unjust steward's actions with regard to short, temporal, matters is seen to be the impetus for some greater effort demanded of the apostles by the weight of the eternal things for which they were responsible.
 
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