I'm EXLDS now bought by the blood ;-)

Wrigley

Senior Veteran
Mar 24, 2003
4,937
178
56
Michigan
Visit site
✟21,012.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
jsfrk2 said:
The farther down the rabbit hole goes, the scarier it gets......
Prodestants and Catholics alike will be offended by this next statement
of Mormon doctrine.......

Next subject....
1. The Mormon view of the virgin birth
Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer 1853,pg. 158
Therefore, the father and mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of husband and wife. Hence the virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the father. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that he only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state and that he intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity.
So.... if we were to believe what the prophet was saying, we would have to believe;
1) Mary could not have been a virgin after this experience.
2) God the father is an Adulterer, because according to Mormon doctrine he already had one wife and was unfaithful with Mary.
3)Mary is an Adulteress because she was engaged to Joseph to be married.
4) God the father would have to be charged with incest, because Mormonism teaches Mary is the daughter of God from the "So-called" pre-existence.
BLASPHEMOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep, blasphemous is right. That's probably why when you bring that up in a debate you'll get a couple reactions.

1. Pratt was giving his own thoughts on the matter. It isn't "doctrine" and it isn't what the mormon church teaches. Any comments are only speculation.

2. Or, you'll get the Hinckley answer. "I don't know that we teach that."

See Matthew 1:18,20 to see the Real story
If this teaching is to be believed at all, you must totally disregard the Bible and Mormon doctrine says that the book of Mormon is "another" testament of Jesus Christ, so the Bible must believe that the Bible is true if it is "another" testament the first one must be true.

One of the articles of faith states: We believe in the Bible as long at is translated correctly. As it was, now and will never be proven translated incorrectly Because Gods’ word never goes out void and Jesus’ promise that not a word will disappear from the Law, plus countless scientific, archaeologic and textual evidence that backs the Bible. But that will be reserved for another lesson:)

One of the article of faith states; We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

That right there means that they don’t believe in; Ephesians 2:8,9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
You don’t need to submit to a Church, just submit to God!
Acts 16:31
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Belief in the LORD Jesus Christ is what you need to be saved, not any Church,, a Church cant save you, nor can following the law save you.


God bless you all,your brother in Christ Jesus,jsfrk2

Mormonism is a messy incoherant system.
 
Upvote 0

Auntie

THANK YOU JESUS!!
Apr 16, 2002
7,624
657
Visit site
✟27,878.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
jsfrk2, you have a wonderful testimony! :clap:

Thanks so much for sharing!

I studied the Mormon church, many many years ago. I came within an inch of joining, but what saved me from making that error was MUCH study of the Bible.

I'm sorry to say, because of my study, it resulted in 3 of my family members joining the Mormon church, and even a divorce was caused by all of this. :( 2 of them have now left the church, but one of them is still a member(the one who got a divorce). She has since remarried, and her new husband and their children are all Mormon. :(

So I feel a little guilty about this; all this happened because I opened the door to two missionaries. :(

But I don't mean to take away from your testimony!:) I'm so glad you have found the love and salvation that only Jesus can bring!

Praise God!

Auntie.
 
Upvote 0

Wrigley

Senior Veteran
Mar 24, 2003
4,937
178
56
Michigan
Visit site
✟21,012.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Auntie said:
jsfrk2, you have a wonderful testimony! :clap:

Thanks so much for sharing!

I studied the Mormon church, many many years ago. I came within an inch of joining, but what saved me from making that error was MUCH study of the Bible.

I'm sorry to say, because of my study, it resulted in 3 of my family members joining the Mormon church, and even a divorce was caused by all of this. :( 2 of them have now left the church, but one of them is still a member(the one who got a divorce). She has since remarried, and her new husband and their children are all Mormon. :(

So I feel a little guilty about this; all this happened because I opened the door to two missionaries. :(

But I don't mean to take away from your testimony!:) I'm so glad you have found the love and salvation that only Jesus can bring!

Praise God!

Auntie.

What got you interested enough to investigate? I've had the young "elders" stop by once, talked to them briefly, they left after politely declining my request for yardwork help. Maybe because I knew enough about them at the time, there was no interest on my part, but I'm curious to know what made you look.

If it's too personal, I can understand.
 
Upvote 0

Auntie

THANK YOU JESUS!!
Apr 16, 2002
7,624
657
Visit site
✟27,878.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Wrigley said:
What got you interested enough to investigate? I've had the young "elders" stop by once, talked to them briefly, they left after politely declining my request for yardwork help. Maybe because I knew enough about them at the time, there was no interest on my part, but I'm curious to know what made you look.

If it's too personal, I can understand.


Just good old fashioned curiosity.:) They seemed so nice, and I didn't feel right turning them away. I didn't know anything about the Mormons, so I was curious. They started out talking about ancient history, and that intrigued me, coz I love history. I had no idea what I was getting into.

Then we moved to a different part of the State, and I made the mistake of telling them where we were moving. The new missionaries showed up at our new house. By then my sister was living with me, and she became interested in the church(she also had a crush on one of the missionaries). My mom would come over to visit, and then my mom got interested too. :( Eventually, we started attending the church, and the missionaries were literally hanging out at our house almost every day. This lasted for an entire summer.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVED the people. The missionaries were like brothers, and the local church members treated us like family. The Mormons have the best family type organization. You feel like they are your blood kin. It's all VERY deceptive.

But during all this time, my mom and I were studying the Bible almost 24/7. That was the best thing about it; we sought out the Scriptures.

Anyway, one of the church leaders came over one day, and almost demanded that we join the church right now, that we were wasting the missionaries valuable time. That was a shocker! It kind of scared me, and put up a red flag in my mind. I told him that Brigham Young studied the church for over two years before he actually joined, and that I was not going to get into a hurry about things.

After that, we didn't go to the church anymore. But I made up my mind to not join because of something one of the missionaries said. It pertained to the prophet. The prophet had made a rule that no one could go swimming that summer.
So I asked the missionary: "What if the prophet told everyone to commit suicide, would you do it?"
He said: "The prophet would never ask such a thing."
I said: "Yes, I know he wouldn't, BUT, what if he did, would you commit suicide if the prophet told you to??".
Finally, after much hesitation, he admitted that he WOULD commit suicide if the prophet demanded it. WOW. That was my turning point. No way would I subject myself to a faith that was so dependant upon a mere mortal man for spiritual guidance and leadership.

Alos, you have to understand, the missionaries don't tell you everything. They try to get you to join before you know al the facts. There was TONS of stuff they didn't tell me, stuff I found out years later. I really thought they were just a denomination like a lot of other denominations.

But ultimately, it was the SCRIPTURES of the HOLY Bible that set me free. They tried to convince me that the Book of Mormon held more authority than the Bible. That the Bible was for the Jews, and the Book of Mormon was for the Gentiles(or something like that). I just never could accept the BOM like it was real scripture(or the DOC). And the Joseph Smith thing was hard to accept too. Anyway, I walked away from it. Thank God!

God bless!

Auntie.
 
Upvote 0

calgal

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,015
48
Western MI
Visit site
✟9,975.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Wrigley said:
True, that is another good area. I don't have a lot of knowledge in that area, so its best left to those who do. (Biology wasn't one of my greatest courses in school.)

I think if you go for the broader scope of the history of what the book of mormon claims is an excellent choice too. I get a kick out of going to the FARMS site from time to time. It seems they have an "a-ha" moment everytime some new artifact is found. Only to have it not be what they want it to be.

Wouldn't peircing and tattoos be covered under the WOW already?

Nope. piercings and tattoos were not covered. They get their own fatwa. :)
 
Upvote 0

Alma

Senior Member
Jul 8, 2003
602
27
Kolob
Visit site
✟898.00
Faith
Mormon
Wrigley said:
I think if you go for the broader scope of the history of what the book of mormon claims is an excellent choice too. I get a kick out of going to the FARMS site from time to time. It seems they have an "a-ha" moment everytime some new artifact is found. Only to have it not be what they want it to be.

This is an interesting allegation, Wrigley. Could you give me an example of such an occurrence? I'm not looking for some vague recollection of something used by some obscure Mormon, rather I'd like to see an actual instance of FARMS citing an "a-ha" about an artifact and then it not being what they (FARMS) claimed it was.

I think it's entirely too easy to claim that the independent authors and scholars who are published by FARMS are a bunch of rubes. It's been my experience that they are accomplished scholars in varied fields of expertise whose claims have yet to face any substantial response from their critics. Could you provide such an example?

Alma
 
Upvote 0

jsfrk2

Active Member
Jul 8, 2003
38
0
47
Arkansas
Visit site
✟148.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This next lesson is about the diety of Christ and that he is the true head of the church and we(the believers are the Body) not a Church organization.... Thank you for all your posts and input,your brother in Christ Jesus,jsfrk2

This is my thoughts and differences concerning mormonism and Christianity

the pearl of great price 2:19 says; every church on the face of the earth is "wrong"; all their creeds an "abomination" in the sight of God and all their teachings "corrupt".

The Bible refutes that statement in Matthew 16:18 "I will build my church; and the gates of hell will not prevail against it!

D&C 130:22 states; the father has a body of flesh& bones as tangible as mans; the son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh& bones, but a personage of spirit.

However in John 4:24 says "God is spirit"; and Luke 24:39 says " a spirit hath not flesh and bones".

A test of a true prophet Deuteronomy 13:1-18

Mormons believe God was once man;
the articles of faith;.... as man is, God once was, as God is man may be.

Isaiah 43:10

10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,

"And My servant whom I have chosen,

That you may know and believe Me,

And understand that I am He.

Before Me there was no God formed,

Nor shall there be after Me.

Hosea 11:9

9 I will not execute the fierceness of My anger;

I will not again destroy Ephraim.

For I am God, and not man,

The Holy One in your midst;

And I will not come with terror.

Psalm 90:2

2 Before the mountains were brought forth,

Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,

Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

The Bible totally refutes this Mormon claim!!

God says I am God not man

from everlasting to everlasting

no God before and none after he is the only one!!!!!

The only LORD God no other

God himself states in Isaiah 44:8 "Is there a God besides me?" Then he answers "There is no God I know not any"

:bow: † :angel: :priest: :pray:
 
Upvote 0

Wrigley

Senior Veteran
Mar 24, 2003
4,937
178
56
Michigan
Visit site
✟21,012.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Alma said:
This is an interesting allegation, Wrigley. Could you give me an example of such an occurrence? I'm not looking for some vague recollection of something used by some obscure Mormon, rather I'd like to see an actual instance of FARMS citing an "a-ha" about an artifact and then it not being what they (FARMS) claimed it was.

I think it's entirely too easy to claim that the independent authors and scholars who are published by FARMS are a bunch of rubes. It's been my experience that they are accomplished scholars in varied fields of expertise whose claims have yet to face any substantial response from their critics. Could you provide such an example?

Alma

Well, since it came from an article I read over a year ago, it'll take some work to find the actual article.

But the jist of it was how the folks at farms jumped to a conclusion about an arrowhead to prove something from the bom, only to have the arrowhead not to be what farms wanted, and needed, it to be.
 
Upvote 0

calgal

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,015
48
Western MI
Visit site
✟9,975.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Alma said:
This is an interesting allegation, Wrigley. Could you give me an example of such an occurrence? I'm not looking for some vague recollection of something used by some obscure Mormon, rather I'd like to see an actual instance of FARMS citing an "a-ha" about an artifact and then it not being what they (FARMS) claimed it was.

I think it's entirely too easy to claim that the independent authors and scholars who are published by FARMS are a bunch of rubes. It's been my experience that they are accomplished scholars in varied fields of expertise whose claims have yet to face any substantial response from their critics. Could you provide such an example?

Alma
FARMS is a legend in their collective minds. Frankly, they have said nothing of value in contrast to Dr Southerton who debunked Moron claims of Amerinds being somehow Semitic. And what physical evidence is there of the claims Joseph the Pedophile made of cureloms or cumons in the new world? bueller?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Wrigley

Senior Veteran
Mar 24, 2003
4,937
178
56
Michigan
Visit site
✟21,012.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
calgal said:
FARMS is a legend in their collective minds. Frankly, they have said nothing of value in contrast to Dr Southerton who debunked Moron claims of Amerinds being somehow Semitic. And what physical evidence is there of the claims Joseph the Pedophile made of cureloms or cumons in the new world? bueller?


You know the folks at farms are looking for it right now. I'm really looking forward to the time when all those steel arrowheads are unearthed.

Maybe you need to give Alma your testimony. (Your real one, not the heart-burn induced one.)
 
Upvote 0

calgal

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,015
48
Western MI
Visit site
✟9,975.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Wrigley said:
You know the folks at farms are looking for it right now. I'm really looking forward to the time when all those steel arrowheads are unearthed.

Maybe you need to give Alma your testimony. (Your real one, not the heart-burn induced one.)

For some reason, every time I give my authentic witness, Mormons run the other way. I wonder why that is? ;)
 
Upvote 0

jsfrk2

Active Member
Jul 8, 2003
38
0
47
Arkansas
Visit site
✟148.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
For some reason, every time I give my authentic witness, Mormons run the other way. I wonder why that is?

hehe, I know what you mean. I moved here to Arkansas from Oregon last year and I the Missionaries found me(go figure)...lol

Anyway I invited them in to talk and to debate we shared our beliefs and I showed them hardcore evidence refuting their claims. We had our Go rounds, But when we were getting close to the time they had to leave I gave my testimony of who Christ is and how he saved me,They almost ran out the door, saying we gotta get going home and they promised to come back for another discussion, They never did. I just pray that God worked his word into their hearts, so they too may know who Jesus REALLY is and how they too can be saved, your brother in Christ Jesus,jsfrk2
 
Upvote 0

calgal

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,015
48
Western MI
Visit site
✟9,975.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
jsfrk2 said:
For some reason, every time I give my authentic witness, Mormons run the other way. I wonder why that is?

hehe, I know what you mean. I moved here to Arkansas from Oregon last year and I the Missionaries found me(go figure)...lol

Anyway I invited them in to talk and to debate we shared our beliefs and I showed them hardcore evidence refuting their claims. We had our Go rounds, But when we were getting close to the time they had to leave I gave my testimony of who Christ is and how he saved me,They almost ran out the door, saying we gotta get going home and they promised to come back for another discussion, They never did. I just pray that God worked his word into their hearts, so they too may know who Jesus REALLY is and how they too can be saved, your brother in Christ Jesus,jsfrk2

Heh heh heh! And good for you. God may have planted a seed in their hearts but it is His will that is sovereign, not ours. ;)
The last encounter I had with Mormon Missionaries was on a day I was fighting a cold (the cold won) and was home with a lovely hacking cough. I answered the door thinking "FedEx" and saw the two sisters. My simple "I am sick. Go away" was punctuated by a couple nasty painful coughs. They left but I was disappointed that I was not physically ready to discuss anything beyond the joys of aspirin. :) In the words of Monty Python "Got Better." I do pray for the salvation of these lost souls. :pray: Glad to see a brother ExMormon here.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

calgal

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,015
48
Western MI
Visit site
✟9,975.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
greeneyedgirl said:
er, well um Mormans(The church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints) believe in Jesus and while I am not Mormon my hubby and his family is and I have found them to be very loving. They don't believe like alot of christians but they are christian.


They are non Trinitarian, polytheistic, magickal thinking folks. Most Pagans I know embrace these things openly. Mormon temple rites are pagan in nature. Just FYI.
 
Upvote 0

calgal

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2003
2,015
48
Western MI
Visit site
✟9,975.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
greeneyedgirl said:
and your idea of being a good loving christian is to attack people with other faiths?

Actually, define attack. Mormons tend to degrade Christians (the pre 1990 temple endowment ceremony included a preacher as the minion of Satan) and grossly misrepresent themselves as somehow "Christian." Their beliefs and ceremonies are pagan and it is sad they cannot represent themselves as such. They are no more christian than a Hyundai is a 12 cylinder BMW 850i.
 
Upvote 0

greeneyedgirl

Mitakuye Oyasin
Jul 12, 2003
125
7
The gulf of Mexico
Visit site
✟291.00
Faith
Other Religion
They are non Trinitarian, polytheistic, magickal thinking folks. Most Pagans I know embrace these things openly. Mormon temple rites are pagan in nature. Just FYI.

They are not non trinitarian and they are also not polytheistic. I have to agree they may be a little magical thinking but to be honest I'm a little uninformed in this area. I sincerely don't know much about their Temple other than calling it" pagen in nature" isn't fair. The same can be said for any church that has spent a few million dollars for their church. While some Mormons are guilty of degrading Christians it is a stereotype statement that is untrue, I mean after all, I am a christian that married into a Mormon family.. But of course I could say some christians degrade Mormans now couldn't I?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ByGrace

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2003
1,577
37
54
Salt Lake City
✟1,928.00
Faith
Christian
Greeneyedgirl--- I am an ex mormon as well and have grown up and lived my entire life in Utah. I have gone through the salt lake temple and have held many high offices in the mormon church. I can tell you without a doubt that there are seriously good people within the mormon church but unfortunately they do not accept Jesus as he is in the bible and think they must work for salvation. This is a problem as only those that accept his FREE gift of grace will see the kingdom of God. Also they are told that they will one day be gods and goddesses and populate their own worlds with another form of jesus for each one of them and the cycle goes on. This is heresy and blasphemy. It is unfortunate that many mormons still believe the joe smith lie but it is true. Recently there was a video released that proves with dna evidence that the book of mormon is false. The book of mormon claims that all Native Americans are descendants of Hebrews that crossed over to the promised land at Gods direction and then were cursed with dark and "loathesome" skin for being unfaithful. They are supposedly the "lamanites" after the original leader of their people, Laman who was a son of Lehi, the one God used to establish this continent. Well, DNA evidence has proben that not one single tribe of Native Americans hold any trace of Hebrew blood but in fact 99.6 percent of all of them descend from Asia and the other .4 percent are either African or European in descent. I pray that your family finds the true saving grace. I know that when Jesus paid for my sins and I removed those underwear and accepted Him without any merit of my own, I was changed. I have a very heavy heart for the LDS people who are my neighbors and family. It is so sad to see so many be tricked into false beliefs when they truly are wanting to find God. I just pray they will open their eyes and not just rely on what they call a testimony for their truth. Please pray for the mormon people and its leaders that they may find Jesus. Below is some places to look for info. Dont know the websites but type in the following info into google and you will get it.

Lighthouse ministries

changes to the mormon temple ceremony

exmormons for Jesus
 
Upvote 0