Christianity without Consequences

"So where's the consequences of doing a morally wrong act if salvation gets you into heaven anyway?"

I believe it does talk about it in the form of what your actions and attitude should be. Romans 8 covers this quite nicely. If you are truely a chrisitan, immoral actions are not a desire for you anymore, or they are outwieghted by the desire to please God.


"And this applies the other way as well. If the non-saved person is going to hell regardless of whether they commit many or very few morally wrong acts, the consequences are precisely the same. "

Nonchristians are very capiable of doing moral acts. The problem is that, just like christians, it is "dirty rags" compared to the requirement of good acts (quanity and quality) for salvation/reconstruction of the relationship with God. Thus while the examples in question do seem to poke holes, they do not do so upon examination of the basics of christianity. Quite simply put, christians have no desire to do wrong because they live in the spirit, not the flesh. Now if you would like to address if/why christians sin, that is another topic. Romans 6::1 and the surrounding verses directly answer your question about christian actions, as does the openning passage in romans chapter 8. James also hits on this subject by saying true faith doesn't exsist without the proof of life, which is works. Both are not needed to be alive, but works is a proof that your faith is strong and thriving.

"I'm not sure that's necessarily true"

I would refer you to romans 8:5 and the surrounding passage. It tells us that those of the spirit set their minds and actions on the things of God. It also explains it in romans 6:6. Our sin nature has been taken from us if we are christians. We no longer desire to sin. The problem comes when, just like a man fresh out of prison, we fall back into a routine, something we did in our former life.

"So, I ask again, what is the consequence to committing a wrong act if you're are either going to heaven or hell for eternity anyway?"

I thought we were talking about the motivation for the act, my appologies. As for the act itself, the consequence of the act is easy to see. If I lie, I loose someone's trust, if I murder, that person is no longer on this earth and I have deeply hurt his/her friends and family, etc....if you're talking about the spiritual implications, the wages (result) of sin is death. Now if you are a nonchristian, this is like taking a white piece of paper and coloring it with a white marker. It just adds to what is already there. For a christian, their is a more complicated implication, if I am reading correctly. Christians who sin are stopping their spiritual growth, and hindering their "witness or testimony" to other christians and non-christians. That is another topic all together though. Did that help answer the question?

"I am trying to understand the point made by some christians that without God's consequences to immoral acts, there is no right or wrong. "

I would refer you to Lewis' moral law. Does that help?

"For if God did nothing in response to that which He proclaims to be immoral, then how could it be immoral at all?"

Ahh..so you say that if God does not act to "punish" the immoral act, it is not immoral? Am I understanding you correctly?

tcampen writes: "The morally wrongs acts of the saved individual have been paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus paid the price for the sins of the saved, so that the saved may spend eternity in heaven with God."

To begin, I believe your assumption wrong in the above quote. Christ didn't die for just those sins committed by the saved, but did in fact die for the sins of all mankind. His death is not applicable until man believes in the finished work of the cross.

Outspoken writes: "Ahh..so you say that if God does not act to "punish" the immoral act, it is not immoral? Am I understanding you correctly?"

tcampen writes: "Yes, that's my question."

I believe your answer lies in the meaning of grace. Those who don't have a proper understanding of the word will find it difficult to comprehend or adjust themselves to its provisions.

tcampen writes: "Salvation by faith, not works, seems to vitiate this premise."

Man isn't saved by faith. Man is "saved by grace through faith" (Eph. 2:8-9). Grace isn't mercy or love. Mercy is defined as that compassion in God that moved Him to provide a Savior for the lost. If mercy was able to save any the death of Christ wasn't necessary. As for divine love, it's the motivating purpose behind all God does in saving a soul, but since God is holy and righteous it's still helpless to save any in light of man's sin. Not until the claims that divine righteousness demand of the sinner can God's love realize its desire.

Grace is what God is free to do for the lost after Christ died in man's stead. When released from His holy demands against the sinner by the sacrificial death of Christ, and that sacrifice is accepted intelligently, there is no condemnation.

Concerning morals, unregenrate man is totally depraved. This doesn't mean that there is nothing good in any unregenerate person as seen by himself or others; it means that there is nothing in fallen man that God can find pleasure in or accept.

In regard to the Christian, his sin has a consequence. Since all his sins have been covered by Christ's death on the cross there is remedy, which is a penetant confession (1 John 1:9), but until he comes into agreement with God concerning his actions fellowship is broken.

In Christ,
Tracey

tcampen writes: "For if God did nothing in response to that which He proclaims to be immoral, then how could it be immoral at all?"

It's not only my position, but that of Scripture that God has judged all immoral or sinful acts on the cross of Calvary (2 Cor. 5:21). Belief in the finished work of Christ is what makes it applicable to the individual. Should one die in a state of unbelief, "the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). What greater penalty could there be?

tcampen writes: "From what I can gather, you're proposing there is no direct divine consequence to the individual who commits an immoral act,"

Sin does indeed have immediate consequences. From the moment Adam sinned he experienced a conversion downwards. He developed within himself a fallen nature which is contrary to God and is always prone to evil. His constitution was altered fundamentally and he became a totally different being from the one God created. The consequences of Adam's sin, spiritual death and physical death, reach to all of Adam's posterity.

In regard to divne retribution for sin committed, we live in the age of grace which is characterized by God's allowance of undue favor or merit. "God is patient toward man, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9). If you have not, I pray the Spirit leads you in that decision before time runs out.

tcampen writes: "but rather the world is divided into two types of people, saved and unsaved. Am I close?"

That is exactly what I believe. Scripture states, "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:17-18).

tcampen writes: "If this is your point, then what makes an act immoral beyond God just saying it is, with nothing to back it up?"

God's Word is sufficient. As a student of Theology, if any progress is going to be made in my study then I must be a believer in the divine character of every portion of Scripture. Any investigation in the field of proof or disproof that the Bible is God's inerrant message to man is classified as higher criticism rather than Theology. Those who are grasping for added light in the aspect of truth, in spite of the Bible's claim to be the Word of God, cannot even begin to study Theology. I accept that "all Scipture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work" (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

The character of God is in view when He is called the God of truth. He not only advances and confirms that which is true, but in faithfulness abides by His promise, and executes every threat or warning He has made. Scripture states, "...let God be found true, though every man be found a liar,..."(Romans 3:4).

In Christ,
Tracey

"The saved person goes to heaven, and the bible does not speak of any punishment that is the consequence of committing morally wrong acts - including those acts committed before the person was saved. Conversely, unsaved individuals, regardless of the magnitude of their immoral acts, get the exact same punishment. "

I would sugguest reading about the parible of the workers in the vineyard. No matter what time they got there, they were paid the same. Great story.

tcampen writes: "Just so I'm clear, do you agree or disagree with Lewis' statement:"

"For if God did nothing in response to that which He proclaims to be immoral, then how could it be immoral at all?"

I agree with the statement.

God determines, by His very nature, what is moral and He alone has the right to determine the penalty for any deviation from it or resistance to His divine will. His determination is, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). However, Scripture reveals that God's outraged holiness has been satisfied through the cross of Christ for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2).

Whether or not you're able to accept God's revelation concerning sin, its effect on God and man, and the divine remedy provided at the cross will be a matter of faith.

I pray the Holy Spirit will do a mighty work in your life and bring you to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

In Christ,
Tracey

"How can right and wrong be established by someone just saying so and without any consequence from that authority?"

Are you taking this from Lewis' statements about natural moral law?


"I appreciate pointing me to this parable or that in another book, but I don't think this discussion would be very interesting if we just pointed eachother to external sources. "

Okay, but it seems to answer your questions nicely. That's why I refered you to it....or at least I thought it did.

Being saved produces FRUITS, which is mentioned in the Bible. A true saved Christian would not intentionally sell drugs, rape, murder etc without a second thought. Christians are known by their fruits, but grace saves, not works.

"The consequences of their respective immoral acts then become irrelevant in light of salvation. "

I would disagree because the main consequence you are talking about is seperation from God. Now you're also leaving out several other aspects of the situation. For one, christians have a very strong desire to not "sin". Thus the problem in your situation. You're not taking into account other pertinent varaibles. To plainly answer this question though, you're correct. If you disregard all other important varaibles for the sake of over simplication to a fault, then yes, a christian can commit the same act and not suffer the consequnce..why? It was paid for already by Christ Thus both do suffer the same consequence, but the christian has it "pre-paid".

"I have no greater desire to do that which is morally wrong than any 'saved' christian. "

I would disagree because our definitions are different. Morality is defined by God and includes many things most nonchristians I know find okay to do. Some of these include, but are not limited to, lustful thoughts, white lies, inappropriate contento, etc....

"With that being established, what other "variables" am I missing? "

I would say motivation. The christian should, if strong in their christian walk, have no desire to commit sin. This is addressed in romans 8.

"And why doesn't the "pre-payment" of one person's immoral acts negate the whole premise that consequences are required to define an act as immoral?"

Because just because it is "paid for" doesn't make it any less immoral.

"why should a truely good person who lived a more moral life than most saved christians suffer the same consequences as Hitler (assuming he was not saved just prior to his death, of course)?"

I have addressed this. A person who "lives a good life" still sins and commits immoral acts. Thus they are in the same situation. If you are 6 inches below water or 50 feet, you still drown.