Is I Am God's name?

Serapha · Jul 9, 2004

Hi there!

http://gertoux.online.fr/divinename...name_story2.doc

In the same way, Philo a Jewish philosopher of the first century had good biblical knowledge and knew that the Tetragram was the divine name pronounced inside the temple, since he related: «there was a gold plaque shaped in a ring and bearing four engraved characters of a name which had the right to hear and to pronounce in the holy place those ones whose ears and tongue have been purified by wisdom, and nobody else and absolutely nowhere else» (De Vita Mosis II:114-132).

You know, when I put the reference "De Vita Mosis II:114-132" in my search engine... this is the only reference I found outside this same source... It's an argument from the CoJCoLDS's.

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=62

37. Josephus, The Jewish War V, 23536. A "crown [with] sacred lettersin four vowels," i.e., YHWH. The golden diadem (Exodus 28:36 and 39:70) contained "seal engravings." Hebrew sources claim that the diadem had in it the words "Holiness to Yahweh." The exact rabbinical phrase is kodesh le-Yahweh. Cf. TB Shabbat 63b. Other sources, including Philo, De Vita Mosis II, 114, 132, claim it was simply the tetragrammaton. Gregory of Nyssa, 11, 201, describes the gold letters as "ineffable," in Gregory of Nyssa, The Life of Moses, tr. Abraham J. Malherbe and Everett Ferguson (New York: Paulist Press, 1978), 106. See Menahem Haran, Temples and Temple Service in Ancient Israel (Oxford: Clarendon, 1978), 169. The Holy Name may have been abbreviated (ibid., 34, n. 38) on the headplate (TB Shabbat 63b).

It doesn't indicate that it was "vowels" only anywhere in this source.

~serapha~

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2004

Serapha said:
Hi there!

37. Josephus, The Jewish War V, 235–36. A "crown [with] sacred letters…in four vowels," i.e., YHWH. The golden diadem (Exodus 28:36 and 39:70) contained "seal engravings." Hebrew sources claim that the diadem had in it the words "Holiness to Yahweh." The exact rabbinical phrase is kodesh le-Yahweh. Cf. TB Shabbat 63b. Other sources, including Philo, De Vita Mosis II, 114, 132, claim it was simply the tetragrammaton. Gregory of Nyssa, 11, 201, describes the gold letters as "ineffable," in Gregory of Nyssa, The Life of Moses, tr. Abraham J. Malherbe and Everett Ferguson (New York: Paulist Press, 1978), 106. See Menahem Haran, Temples and Temple Service in Ancient Israel (Oxford: Clarendon, 1978), 169. The Holy Name may have been abbreviated (ibid., 34, n. 38) on the headplate (TB Shabbat 63b).

Click to expand...

It doesn't indicate that it was "vowels" only anywhere in this source.
~serapha~

As a matter of fact it does not. Here is what the Babylonian Talmud says.

Babylonian Talmud. Shabbat 63b.

When R. Dimi came,19 he said in the name of R. Johanan: How do we know that woven [material] of whatever size is [liable to become] unclean? From the ziz.20 Said Abaye to him, Was then the ziz woven? But it was taught: The ziz was a kind of golden plate two fingerbreadths broad, and it stretched round [the forehead] from ear to ear, and upon it was written in two lines 'yod he' above and 'Holy lamed' below.21 But R. Eliezer son of R. Jose said: I saw it in the city of Rome,22 and 'Holy unto the Lord' was written in one line.23

20. The headplate worn by the High Priest, v. Ex. XXVIII, 36ff. Though quite small, it was counted among the High Priest's adornments, and was therefore susceptible to uncleanness.

21. I.e., the Divine Name on the upper line and 'Holy unto' on the lower line.

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2004

ZeOvadhYahu said:
ZeOvadhYahu:~~>> Hello there Der Alter, I believe you used various sources as R.W.P. and such in your replies to me, didn't you? Sure you did!

As far as my words regarding the Bible go, you have rudely taken them completely out of context haven't you Der? Sure you have. Let's notice what I actually said in relationship to that statement.

Once again your statement is only partially correct. I do use various language resources, including RWP. I rarely ever use a commentary, as you did, to back up my opinion concerning nonlanguage matters. FYI there is a big difference in citing a source which exegetes the language and citing a source which provides opinion on sociological and cultural issues, e.g. why did a particular character in the Bible do or not do certain things. That is and always will be only opinion.

You have made a false accusation. I have taken nothing completely out of context, rudely or otherwise. In the post at the link immediately below, when I cited the Jewish Encyclopedia, in support of my position concerning "ehyeh," you ignored the post and blew it off with the statement, "The Bible is the key, therefore lets use it."

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=8415626&postcount=196

You keep asking me to produce verses for things I have never said or implied. It is not incumbent on me to produce Bible texts to support your argument. If you have any then you should be posting them. The fact that you keep harping on this dead issue, and not producing any scripture, indicates to me you don't have any scriptural proof for your position.

In view of this constant demand for scriptural evidence, I asked you to back up your statement concerning Pilate's motivation for crucifying Jesus, with scripture, not commentary. Instead you quoted several commentaries. What I see is whenever I produce evidence from sources outside the Bible you demand that I stick to scripture, but when I ask you for scriptural evidence you feel free to quote anything.

lared · Jul 13, 2004

The name Jehovah is the modern common English pronunciation of the divine name, just as the name Jesus is for the son of God.

Millions of people around the world in some 235 lands are learning about the true God Jehovah and are drawing close to him. They are associating with God's name people in some 98,000 active congregations.

The good news of the kingdom is being declared by Witnesses of Jehovah to the tune of well over a billion hours each year. Matthew 24:14

God's kingdom will soon destroy all human governments and wicked people and will transform this earth into a global paradise, where righteous people will live forever. Daniel 2:44 Psalm 37:29

This is truly a wonderful time to be alive despite the terrible things taking place. Especially when one associates with God's people and strives to do the will of God.

lared · Jul 13, 2004

see above

Serapha · Jul 13, 2004

lared said:
The name Jehovah is the modern common English pronunciation of the divine name, just as the name Jesus is for the son of God.

Millions of people around the world in some 235 lands are learning about the true God Jehovah and are drawing close to him. They are associating with God's name people in some 98,000 active congregations.

The good news of the kingdom is being declared by Witnesses of Jehovah to the tune of well over a billion hours each year. Matthew 24:14

God's kingdom will soon destroy all human governments and wicked people and will transform this earth into a global paradise, where righteous people will live forever. Daniel 2:44 Psalm 37:29

This is truly a wonderful time to be alive despite the terrible things taking place. Especially when one associates with God's people and strives to do the will of God.

Hi there!

My Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ went away to prepare a place for me that I might be with Him and the Father. I don't have to settle for a "second-best" claim of a paradise on this earth. I can live eternally in the presence of God devoid of "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" for "there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie..."

It's a choice where you want to spend eternity ...

When you call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, if you have the right Lord, you don't have to settle for second best.

~serapha~

Der Alte · Jul 14, 2004

Serapha said:
Hi there!

My Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ went away to prepare a place for me that I might be with Him and the Father. I don't have to settle for a "second-best" claim of a paradise on this earth. I can live eternally in the presence of God devoid of "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" for "there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie..."

It's a choice where you want to spend eternity ...

When you call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, if you have the right Lord, you don't have to settle for second best.

~serapha~

Ouch!

drmmjr · Jul 14, 2004

Serapha said:
Hi there!

My Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ went away to prepare a place for me that I might be with Him and the Father. I don't have to settle for a "second-best" claim of a paradise on this earth. I can live eternally in the presence of God devoid of "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" for "there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie..."

It's a choice where you want to spend eternity ...

When you call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, if you have the right Lord, you don't have to settle for second best.

~serapha~

Yes, Jesus went to prepare a place for us. (John 14:2), but you also need to read the next verse to see that Jesus will return to receive us unto himself.

John 14:3 - And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Also, Jesus is returning to establish God's kingdom on earth. New Jerusalem will come down from heaven and God will dwell with us and we will be his people.

God's kingdom on earth is not "second best". It is what was promised to Abraham.

Genesis 28:4 - And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

But Abraham, as well as others, have not yet received what was promised to them.

Hebrews 11:39 - And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

And read a couple of verses prior to your quoted section,

Revelation 22:15 - For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

and you will see that Jesus is going to return with our reward from him.

Revelation 22:12 - And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

So, as you can see, the establishment of "paradise on this earth" (kingdom of God) is not something that is "second best".

lared · Jul 14, 2004

Serapha said:
Hi there!

My Bible says that the Lord Jesus Christ went away to prepare a place for me that I might be with Him and the Father. I don't have to settle for a "second-best" claim of a paradise on this earth. I can live eternally in the presence of God devoid of "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" for "there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie..."

It's a choice where you want to spend eternity ...

When you call upon the name of the Lord for salvation, if you have the right Lord, you don't have to settle for second best.

~serapha~

Funny....I did not read your name in the Bible. Those that are invited to heaven go there for a purpose. They are to rule with our Lord Christ Jesus as kings and priests over the meek that shall inherit the earth. This good news of the kingdom is being preached around the globe by some 6 to 7 million ministers of the true God Jehovah in some 235 lands. You are more then welcome to learn more as millions are in every village and city of the earth. Matthew 24:14.
PS-At Armageddon which is God's war, not only will human governments be crushed (Daniel 2:44) but also all wicked people will be destroyed (Proverbs 2). Thus, you have no reason to fear that there will be wicked people on a cleansed paradise earth.

Serapha · Jul 14, 2004

lared said:
Funny....I did not read your name in the Bible. Those that are invited to heaven go there for a purpose. They are to rule with our Lord Christ Jesus as kings and priests over the meek that shall inherit the earth. This good news of the kingdom is being preached around the globe by some 6 to 7 million ministers of the true God Jehovah in some 235 lands. You are more then welcome to learn more as millions are in every village and city of the earth. Matthew 24:14.
PS-At Armageddon which is God's war, not only will human governments be crushed (Daniel 2:44) but also all wicked people will be destroyed (Proverbs 2). Thus, you have no reason to fear that there will be wicked people on a cleansed paradise earth.

Hi there!

And after Armageddon, then what? Is everyone in a gloriifed body? No.... there are people who are still in the physical body... and those people will still be marrying and still having children, and still expressing free will... and original sin will still be a part of life in the physical world.

The presentation that there will be a glorious eternal world living in a paradise of a beautiful garden simply flies out the window with the fact that the water cycle is gone for ever.

~serapha~

Der Alte · Jul 14, 2004

lared said:
Funny....I did not read your name in the Bible.

Meaningless little knee jerk response. My Bible is mine because I purchased it, therefore it is mine and not some other person's, although it may be identical to the same edition purchased by another person. Do you understand now? I thought not.

Serapha · Jul 14, 2004

Originally Posted by: lared

Funny....I did not read your name in the Bible

Meaningless little knee jerk response. My Bible is mine because I purchased it, therefore it is mine and not some other person's, although it may be identical to the same edition purchased by another person. Do you understand now? I thought not.

<grin>

My name is in everyone's Bible...

More importantly, my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life... and therefore, I am assured that heaven will be my eternal home....

We can have an assurance of heaven, and being in the presence of God isn't just for the ruling class..... The Book of Revelation tells us that we will "serve" in heaven, so everyone will have a job to perform there.

Why cultivate a garden when you can be eternally praising the Lord or singing in heaven's choir? I guess that by JW teachings... people in "paradise" miss the opportunity to sing a new song in heaven's choir, a new song that only they can sing because of their experiences in this life.

Just because the 144,000 sing their own song, doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other choir members singing a different song.

~serapha~

lared · Jul 15, 2004

Serapha said:
<grin>

My name is in everyone's Bible...

More importantly, my name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life... and therefore, I am assured that heaven will be my eternal home....

We can have an assurance of heaven, and being in the presence of God isn't just for the ruling class..... The Book of Revelation tells us that we will "serve" in heaven, so everyone will have a job to perform there.

Why cultivate a garden when you can be eternally praising the Lord or singing in heaven's choir? I guess that by JW teachings... people in "paradise" miss the opportunity to sing a new song in heaven's choir, a new song that only they can sing because of their experiences in this life.

Just because the 144,000 sing their own song, doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other choir members singing a different song.

~serapha~

The individuals that I know that have a heavenly hope are fully aware and appreciate Jehovah God's original purpose to have this earth filled with righteous perfect people who will care for it. They work in harmony with God's will and do not dismiss his purpose as unimportant.

They are fully aware that Jehovah God put man and woman here to live forever and that Satan, Adam, and Eve only temporarily attempted to thwart God's intentions. Eventually, his glorious purpose will come about. In fact, all Christians pray for this when they recite the Lord's prayer........Let your will be done on earth as it is done in heaven. And it is by means of God's kingdom that this will come about.

Moslem suicide bombers also feel assured that they have God's favor and will be rewarded in heaven.

Accurate knowledge of the Scriptures is more important then beliefs or feelings.

Remember the thought in the Scriptures.....Beware, the one who thinks he is standing, that he does not fall.

Jehovah God has a people who are found earthwide in some 98,000 congregations. They do not simply attend meetings at these Kingdom Halls, but go out of their way to educate people as far as God's purposes. You may meet them at your door, over the telephone, in the market places, etc. They will be happy to offer you a free home Bible study of about an hour a week held in your own home or park.

They can further explain to you the overall theme of the Bible and help you to move beyond primary doctrines.

Lared

lared · Jul 15, 2004

Serapha said:
Hi there!

And after Armageddon, then what? Is everyone in a gloriifed body? No.... there are people who are still in the physical body... and those people will still be marrying and still having children, and still expressing free will... and original sin will still be a part of life in the physical world.

The presentation that there will be a glorious eternal world living in a paradise of a beautiful garden simply flies out the window with the fact that the water cycle is gone for ever.

~serapha~

Sorry, I missed this post when I logged on.
Serapha, you really have alot to learn. You have alot of misunderstandings and wrong assumptions. Any of the millions of JW's will be happy to help you. For their message is a unified message based upon the Scriptures. JW's in Poland will teach you the same good news of the kingdom as JW's in Bolivia. That is really something remarkable, when with any particular church of christendom, you get a mixed bag.
Take care, Lared

Serapha · Jul 15, 2004

lared said:
Accurate knowledge of the Scriptures is more important then beliefs or feelings.

Hi there!

and there was nothing in my reply that was based upon "beliefs" or "feeling"... but scripture taken in the totality of God's Word.

They can further explain to you the overall theme of the Bible and help you to move beyond primary doctrines.

You are kidding? I don't need for a Jehovah's Witness to teach me doctrines... I learned doctrines in college. Here's a great site for your reading pleasure....

http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine_a_e.html

~serapha~

eksesar · Sep 21, 2004

lared said:
Sorry, I missed this post when I logged on.
Serapha, you really have alot to learn. You have alot of misunderstandings and wrong assumptions. Any of the millions of JW's will be happy to help you. For their message is a unified message based upon the Scriptures. JW's in Poland will teach you the same good news of the kingdom as JW's in Bolivia. That is really something remarkable, when with any particular church of christendom, you get a mixed bag.
Take care, Lared

Keep up with the Present truths of Gods organization brothers and sisters!

Present truth is a novel idea but is it reasonable?

How could an Organization with over six million followers come to believe such a contradiction of the word truth?

What reasoning was behind the original acceptance of such a teaching?

The early Bible Students under C.T Russell used the KJV in which they read 2 Peter 1:12

*** KJV ***2 Peter 1:12

Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Is this correct, No of course not, truth is constant and does not change. This confusion was caused by the KJV translation of this verse.

*** w79 7/1 p. 20 Who Really Have the Truth? ***

Who Really Have the Truth?

THE word truth is defined as that which conforms to the facts, to reality. It signifies that which is right and genuine.

Click to expand...

How could they believe truth is right and genuine and also believe it could constantly change?

The early bible students and Jehovah's Witnesses as they became known after them used this as an invaluable crutch to explain the changes which were often required in their teachings and doctrines.

*** jv chap. 10 p. 121 Growing in Accurate Knowledge of the Truth ***..Did they believe that they had all the answers, the full light of truth? To that question Brother Russell pointedly answered: Certainly not; nor will we have until the perfect day. (Prov. 4:18, KJ) Frequently they referred to their Scriptural beliefs as present truth.

Click to expand...

*** jv chap. 28 Testing and Sifting From Within ***To one who forsook Jehovahs service because the anointed followers of Jesus Christ were not taken to heaven in 1914, C. J. Woodworth wrote as follows: ----- I praise God for the day that brought Present Truth to my door.

Click to expand...

*** w52 4/1 p. 219 An International Assembly in ***One of the speakers pointed out the great need for the Bible in and how those who had already come to the truth must keep up with present truth

Click to expand...

By the early 1950s the WTBTS decided that the KJV was no longer acceptable for many reasons and produced their own NWT in which they gave an accurate rendering of 2 Peter 1:12

*** Rbi8 2 Peter 1:12 ***NWT***.....12 For this reason I shall be disposed always to remind YOU of these things, although YOU know [them] and are firmly set in the truth that is present [in YOU].

Click to expand...

Kudos to them for this change as it now makes sense both in the context and also helps us to understand what real truth is.

How could this teaching of ever changing truth have possibly been accepted by so many for so long!

*** w74 1/15 p. 35 Can You Be True to God, Yet Hide the Facts? ***Can You Be True to God, Yet Hide the Facts?........WHAT results when a lie is let go unchallenged? Does not silence help the lie to pass as truth, to have freer sway to influence many, perhaps to their serious harm?

Click to expand...

So did they change theyre stance on this faulty reasoning or continue to promote this knowing it was useful in covering over theyre constantly changing doctrines?

The Revelation Grand Climax book released in 1989 had this to say about present truth.

*** re chap. 1 p. 8 RevelationIts Happy Climax! ***

7 Why should another book on Revelation be published at this present time? Much of the information that has already appeared is very detailed, and it has not been possible to translate and publish it worldwide in many languages. Hence, it was seen fit to provide a book on Revelation in just one volume and in a form that can readily be produced in a number of languages. Further, the opportunity is taken in this volume to provide teaching aids, including illustrations, charts, and summaries, that should help readers to grasp clearly the thrilling import of this marvelous prophecy.

8 An even stronger reason for publishing this book is the need to keep up-to-date with present truth.-----

Click to expand...

The organization which strives for truth decides to stick to false teachings, are you surprised?

eksesar · Sep 21, 2004

lared said:
The individuals that I know that have a heavenly hope are fully aware and appreciate Jehovah God's original purpose to have this earth filled with righteous perfect people who will care for it. They work in harmony with God's will and do not dismiss his purpose as unimportant.

They are fully aware that Jehovah God put man and woman here to live forever and that Satan, Adam, and Eve only temporarily attempted to thwart God's intentions. Eventually, his glorious purpose will come about. In fact, all Christians pray for this when they recite the Lord's prayer........Let your will be done on earth as it is done in heaven. And it is by means of God's kingdom that this will come about.

Moslem suicide bombers also feel assured that they have God's favor and will be rewarded in heaven.

Accurate knowledge of the Scriptures is more important then beliefs or feelings.

Remember the thought in the Scriptures.....Beware, the one who thinks he is standing, that he does not fall.

Jehovah God has a people who are found earthwide in some 98,000 congregations. They do not simply attend meetings at these Kingdom Halls, but go out of their way to educate people as far as God's purposes. You may meet them at your door, over the telephone, in the market places, etc. They will be happy to offer you a free home Bible study of about an hour a week held in your own home or park.

They can further explain to you the overall theme of the Bible and help you to move beyond primary doctrines.

Lared

Do you know Lared ? How would I know the God's name when Watchtower change the policy or change later on as the time goes by, just like Jesus [I quotes below for you] ? Watchtower have changed Jesus becomes Michael.
Maybe someday Watchtower would change from Jehovah becomes JEHOVER or JAHOVEH or JOHAVEH

Jesus is an Angel

Watchtower 1991 2/1 p. 17 Honor the Son, Jehovahs Chief Agent
Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovahs chief angel, or archangel. On what basis do we reach that conclusion? Well, the prefix arch, meaning chief or principal, implies that there is only one archangel. Gods Word speaks of him in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. We read: The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangels voice and with Gods trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

YET CHANGED AGAIN, PRETTY SAMPLE, ISN'T IT?

Jesus is not an Angel

Watchtower 1991 2/15 p. 14 A Corresponding Ransom for All

God did not send some angel to rescue mankind. He made the supreme sacrifice of sending his only-begotten Son, the one he was specially fond of".

eksesar · Sep 21, 2004

lared said:
Sorry, I missed this post when I logged on.
Serapha, you really have alot to learn. You have alot of misunderstandings and wrong assumptions. Any of the millions of JW's will be happy to help you. For their message is a unified message based upon the Scriptures. JW's in Poland will teach you the same good news of the kingdom as JW's in Bolivia. That is really something remarkable, when with any particular church of christendom, you get a mixed bag.
Take care, Lared

Do you know LARED?

The Elder also said that the JW's are humble because they have changed things when they received new light. They said "the other churches never change anything". ...LOL

mawuvi · Sep 21, 2004

Having a conversation with yourself again I can see eksesar.
Is this your new tactics of hating the JW's that is to revive old and dormant threads and you think this would work? I think you are missing why no one is joining you on your attacks against the witnesses. THIS IS CHRISTIAN BOARD NOT A HATE BOARD.

eksesar · Sep 21, 2004

mawuvi said:
Having a conversation with yourself again I can see eksesar.
Is this your new tactics of hating the JW's that is to revive old and dormant threads and you think this would work? I think you are missing why no one is joining you on your attacks against the witnesses. THIS IS CHRISTIAN BOARD NOT A HATE BOARD.

That's the FACTS, and you live with it, then Face the TRUTH.

Is I Am God's name?

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