Revelation chapter 12 - Two women ?

Hervey · Mar 14, 2002

The Jerusalem that is above, is free. And is the mother of us all.

Yet ! - Galatians 4:27

#1 - She is barren

#2 - She bearest not

#3 - She does not travail in child birth

#4 - She is desolate (empty womb)

#5 - She has many more children than she that hath a husband -- so this
tells us that the Jerusalem that is above does not have a husband - not
married, yet she has more children than she that does have a husband.

Revelation 12:1 - 2

1 ) - "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven ; a woman clothed with
the sun, and the moon under her feet , and upon her head a crown of twelve
stars"

2 ) - "And she being with child cried , travailing in birth, and pained to
be delivered"

This is woman #1 in Revelation 12, and this woman, is "not" the Jerusalem
which is above , who is the mother of us all, for the obvious reasons of
child birth, travaileth, she is most definitely not barren.

Can you find woman #2 who is the Jerusalem which is above, who is free, and
she does not give birth and does not travail, and is the mother of us all ,
within Revelation chapter 12 ? ?

Know one thing for sure !

She is within this chapter !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

ZiSunka · Mar 14, 2002

What makes you think that this woman represents Jerusalem? I've never heard anyone say that before.

Dave Ulchers · Mar 14, 2002

The woman in Revelations 12 would seem to be Mary. There's only one woman mentioned there, right?

Hervey · Mar 14, 2002

TWO

Dave Ulchers · Mar 14, 2002

There may be any number of women among her offspring who obey God's commandments mentioned in Revelations 12:17... but other than them, there's the Dragon, Michael, his angels (neuter), the Dragon's angels (also neuter, AFAIK), the disembodied voice, and that's it.

edjones · Mar 14, 2002

Rev. 12:1-2
THIS WOMAN IS ISRAEL (see fulfillment of Joseph's dream of Gen. 37).

"clothed with sun" - Israel's brilliant position before God

"moon under feet " - reflecting the glory of God

"crown of twelve stars" - representing the twelve tribes

"travailing in birth" - see Isa. 54:1 See the word "her" in Hos. 2:14,15; Deut. 32:11 +The "us" in Isa. 9:6 is Israel.

Some say THE CHURCH - but this cannot be for two reasons:

a. The church did not give birth to Christ (the Child).
b. The church is not on the earth during the Tribulation (it is in Heaven since 4:1

2002 Christian · Mar 14, 2002

ed, your position is plausible only if there is a "rature of the church" years before the 2nd coming - a position that many believe cannot be supported by the Word of God.

ONE woman - TWO phases

REV 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.... 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

The woman represents "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16) - before the birth of Christ and thereafter (as the persecuted Christians down through the centuries). How do I know the "rest of her offspring" ("remnant of her seed" - KJV) are Christians? They hold to "the testimony of Jesus." Unbelieving Jews (Israel after the flesh - 1 Cor 10:18, KJV) don't do that.

Hervey · Mar 14, 2002

Ed:

Israel was a "she", but she rejected the bridegoom who was Christ. Israel went in unto whroedom, and that is why God gave Israel over to Babylon, among other reasons, such as the disobediance of King Solomon.

The "Jerusalem" which is above is free, and does not travail in child birth. This woman is verses 1 & 2 is travailing in child birth. Can you find the Jerusalem , the "second" woman in this record in Rev. 12 ?

2002 Christian - You are incorrect ! There are "TWO" women in Revelation chapter 12 ! !

Let me ask you, why did you use the KJV at the end of your post, to quote those other verses, but didn't use the KJV when you quoted Rev. chapter 12 ? ? And which translation did you use when you quoted Rev. 12 ? The Church is raptured prior to the Great tribulation and wrath of God period of time. The second coming happens during the end of the seventh seal, which is the end of the wrath of God period of time. And that still does not make Ed's answer correct ! And it does not help your answer either !

Everyone else is not even coming close to the answer.

Good try Ed, but your answer is not correct, and you still did not show the "second" woman, the Jerusalem which is above, that does not travail in child birth, but is barren , and has more children than a woman with a husband.

Try again ? ! :scratch:

Love IN Christ - Hervey

edjones · Mar 14, 2002

MARY BAKER EDDY? - Claimed she was this woman, and that the Child is her "Christian Science", and that the dragon is mortal mind, the enemy of her "Key to the Scriptures".

Catchup · Mar 14, 2002

Revelations 12 is Christmas from heaven's perspective

The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. Revelation 12:4

Christmas day! We celebrate it with a sudden splurge of money and gifts and an attempt to rediscover the joy of the first Christmas. Manger displays in town squares recreate the scene in Bethlehem on that day long ago.
As many interpret it, chapter 12 describes Christmas day also, but its point of view differs radically from that of the Gospels. Revelation does not tell of shepherds, a crazed king bent on infanticide, and a stable; rather, it pictures a murderous dragon leading a ferocious struggle in heaven. His attack when Christ was born launches a series of bloody rebellions against the forces of good.

Two Histories at Once
The view of Christ's birth in Revelation 12 gives a glimpse into the pattern of the entire book. John is fusing things seen with things normally not seen. In daily life, two parallel histories occur simultaneously: one on earth and one in heaven. Revelation, however, views them together. It parts the curtain, allowing a quick look behind the scenes at the cosmic impact of what happens on earth.
Every inch of this planet is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan. We normally experience only the visible, everyday effects of this struggle. We feel it, for example, when we make a choice between what we know is wrong and what is right. But, as we are living out our lives on earth, the supernatural universe is simultaneously at war. Revelation draws the contrasts sharply: good versus evil, the Lamb versus the dragon, Jerusalem versus Babylon, the bride versus the prostitute.

Is God in Control of History?
Sometimes the "war in heaven" can break out into actual violence on earth, as it did when Jesus came. Revelation was originally written to people who were facing extreme persecution from the Roman empire. Revelation establishes that a war is being waged on this planet between good and evil, a war that reflects a larger struggle in the whole universe. But, no matter how it looks, God is in firm control of history. To first-century Christians, Rome was the arch-villain, and allusions to that empire crop up in these chapters. John asserts that Jesus Christ, and not an emperor, determines the flow of history.
Events are marching onward to a definite climax; history has meaning. Ultimately, even the despots of history will end up fulfilling the plan mapped out for them by God. Pontius Pilate and his Roman soldiers demonstrated that truth starkly. They thought they were getting rid of Jesus by crucifying him. Instead, they made possible the salvation of the world.

Both women were Mary. For in the virgin birth on Earth of our savior she became the spiritual mother in heaven of all God's children.

17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus

:clap:

LOVE

Dave Ulchers · Mar 14, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
John is fusing things seen with things normally not seen. In daily life, two parallel histories occur simultaneously: one on earth and one in heaven. Revelation, however, views them together. It parts the curtain, allowing a quick look behind the scenes at the cosmic impact of what happens on earth.

That is the most beautiful description of Revelations I've ever heard!

2002 Christian · Mar 14, 2002

Hervey, the burden of proof is on you.

rwc109 · Mar 14, 2002

Gal 4:22- explains that Woman#1 is those following the old covenant [the child ,Christ, is of the tribe of Judah, a Jew], so it is the oldcovenant that gives birth to the child [and so brings in the productivity of the new by fulfilling the old]
thus to have been under the old covenant does not exclude being part of woman#2 accepting the new covenant!
Clearly the 144,000 are of the tribes of Israel [except that Dan and Ephraim are excluded ] and are the chosen elect, thus we have a remnant from the House of Judah AND a remnant from the House of Israel['lost' tribes] and these are the firstfruits [Rev7:2-8] .... later the many ,including those grafted in through teaching of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (heathen!)[Rev7:9-10]

Hervey · Mar 14, 2002

Hi all:

I am going to give you a hint , before I give you all the true answer:

Remember: The Jerusalem that is above is barren, and does not travail in child birth. Yet, she is the mother of us all. Also look at Psalm 113:13

The hint is this > There was one who was not born, but was formed from the dust of the earth.

Also remember this > Sarai was also barren, and she took Hagar to be a surragat mother, so that she would be the mother of her child. This is the only way in which a woman can be a mother , and also be barren, and travaileth not, and still be a mother (stepmother).

The Jerusalem that is above fits this example to a "T" ! And can be found in Revelation chapter 12. There are "Two" women in this chapter, and they are both mothers, but one was barren, and did not travail in child birth.

Can you find the "second" woman in Chapter 12 of Revelation ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Dave Ulchers · Mar 15, 2002

I feel like I'm watching that Monty Python skit "How not to be Seen"....

Catchup · Mar 15, 2002

I am going to give you a hint , before I give you all the true answer

Your too kind Hervey. Maybe you could also tell us who made you the barrier of Truth! Get your butt back here. I am bored and need a laugh. Got any good jokes?

:sleep:

LOVE

Me4him · Mar 15, 2002

Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

:clap:

edjones · Mar 15, 2002

ed, your position is plausible only if there is a "rature of the church" years before the 2nd coming - a position that many believe cannot be supported by the Word of God.

The Rapture of the Church is 7 years before the 2nd advent of The Lord Jesus Christ.

But "many" do believe it is supported by the Scriptures.

ed

charlesj · Mar 16, 2002

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: -- Rev 12:1

Everything worth seeing is seen when a man lifts his eyes to heaven. Ezekiel (1:1ff) was among the captives in Babylon and still he saw remarkable things. But if he had kept his eyes on the suffering and the despairing sight if he had not lifted his eyes to God he wouldnt have seen the heavens open. Lift up your eyes!!

He saw a woman. She is pure, light-hearted woman. And isnt that a great sight? Isnt that the kind of vision only produced by heaven? Thank God for godly women. This woman is special. She (and a lot of things associated with her) is drawn from Genesis 3. In this chapter we have a serpent, a woman, a man-child, and the (rest of the) seed of the woman. As in Genesis 3, it is the woman who is to produce the man-child, the seed which would defeat the Serpent. It is her seed that would bruise the head of the serpent. (Paul applies Genesis 3:15 to more than Jesus when he uses it in Romans 16:20).

Who is this woman, thats the question? She is the people of God! She wears the two heavenly bodies, which give light to earth (Gen 1:17,18). She is the bearer of light in the dark world. She is neither the Church of God exclusively nor is the Old Testament believers exclusively. She will be used as the Church of God in the text later, but at this point she simply stands for the elect! Gods people.

She wears 12 stars worked into a wreath of victory the victor crown, the stephanos. The number 12, as all Bible students recognize, is the number of Gods people. The 12 tribes or 12 apostles, being in mind. She is the people of God as a corporate whole, one body. But she is the people of God viewed as victorious thus the wreath.

She cant simply be Old Testament believers for we read of her being persecuted by the Dragon after she has brought forth the Messiah. And the rest of her seed (the individual believers) hold the testimony of Jesus (therefore they are Christians). Nor yet can we hold her to be simply Christians (as least from the evidence in this chapter) because she is given existence prior to the birth and glorification of the Messiah.

The use of a figure of a woman to speak of a nation is so common that you need only to consult a concordance. See Isaiah 50:1; Micah 4:9ff. In this latter passage of Isaiah we have both the woman and the seed used. Making it clear that one is the corporate concept and the other the individual. The woman then, is the people of God viewed as one triumphant body!!

In what respect did the woman (if she be the people of God as a whole) bring forth the Messiah? It would be true in two senses. One, it would be literally true that Jesus descended through the Jewish line which contained in it believers. Its also true that we, as sinners, required or made necessary the birth of Jesus Christ. The woman in Genesis 3 was promised a redeemer The Redeemer. He was needed. He had to be born because she and we desperately needed Him.
Although the woman is mentioned first and is mentioned again in the test in which she plays a prominent role but she is NOT the central figure. The central figure is the Child. The other major figure is the Dragon.

Your servant in Messiah, Jesus,
charlesj

Hervey · Mar 19, 2002

Revelation 12 - Women - The most three - the least Two.

Galatians 4:26 - "The Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all"

Verse 27 - For it is written - Rejoiceth - she that is - "Barren" - "Travaileth not" - "desolate" (empty womb)

Psalm 113:9 - "He make the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children"

In Galatians 4:25 - one Jerusalem is in bondage , and Agar answereth to the Jerusalem which now is, which is in bondage with her children

The mirror image of this Jerusalem, is the Jerusalem which is above which is free - Verse 26 - which is the mother of us all.

The Jerusalem which is in bondage is on this earth. The Jerusalem which is above is free, but she is the mother of us all, and is barren .

When Sari was barren, she took her handmaiden who was a bondslave unto Sari, to be a surrogate mother, so that she would give birth to a male child to be Sari's son, so that he would be heir of all that Abraham had. And be able to pass on his seed through his son.

The Jerusalem which is above is also barren, and in order to be the mother of us all, she also needs a surrogate, to bring forth a male , so that his seed can continue.

The Jerusalem which can not leave this earth , is the woman in bondage.

The Jerusalem which can fly away , is not in bondage, because of the freedom to leave this earth. The Jerusalem which is above has that freedom - Revelation 12:14 - Two wings.

The Jerusalem which is above, is the woman which flew away . But she is barren, and does not travail in child birth, yet she brought forth a man. The only way that a barren woman can bring forth a man , is for a surrogate to help the barren woman. The "earth" is a she and she helped the woman. (The Jerusalem which is above, which is free, but before she flew away , she need help) - Revelation 12:15 & 16

The Jerusalem which is above is the mother of us all, but she is barren, and needed a surrogate, and the earth is a "she"- "her" - verse 16, which helped the woman (Jerusalem), and the earth became the surrogate for the Jerusalem which is barren.

Ephesians 4:6 - "One God and Father of us all"

As Sari was barren, so was the Jerusalem which is now above. So God , who is one, and who is Father of us all, used the earth (her) as a surrogate , so that the Jerusalem, which now is above, could bring forth a man. That man was the first Adam.

I Corinthians 15:47 - "The first man is of the earth, earthy". This first man , Adam, was of the surrogate - (Her) - The earth.

The second man - I Corinthians 15:47 , is the Lord from heaven. - heavenly = Spiritual - Spirit.

There is a "second" surrogate in Revelation 12, and she can be found in verses 1 & 2. This is the heavenly - Spiritual - Spirit. She travaileth in child birth. The Spiritual - Spirit was brought forth through child bearing, and travail. Christ was the seed that was born in a virgin. The seed from heaven , was the Christ - Galatians 3:16. Born of a spiritual woman in heaven, and this seed (Man ) was planted in Mary, the surrogate for God, the Father of us all. So that Christ could be born in the flesh - I John 5:20 - "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him (God) that is true, in his Son Christ Jesus " --- I John 4:3 - "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God"---- I John 4:15 - "Whosoever shall confess that Christ Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God"

In Revelation 12 , there are the most three women

#1 - verses 1 & 2 - Spiritual surrogate of Christ

#2 - verses 13 & 14 - Which is the Jerusalem which is above, and is free, and is barren, and travaileth not in child birth.

#3 - verses 15 & 16 - The "earth" (her) which helped the woman (Jerusalem - barren), and became the surrogate for the barren woman - Jerusalem.

The most three (women), the least two (surrogates)

Love IN Christ - HErvey

Revelation chapter 12 - Two women ?

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