How I came to embrace Preterism.

Originally posted by Autumn


Parousia70,
How did I know that was going to come back at me? No, ofcourse, I don't believe that. I do however believe that when Jesus was talking to His disciples about His second coming, it applies to us.

Click to expand...

Where does the Bible tell you to make this distinction?
Where does the Bible say "Everything except the 2nd coming applies to the original audience"

What I hear you saying is that when Jesus was addressing His disciples directly with such phrases as "When you see the abomination of desolation" and When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies", and "Assuredly I say to you, You shall not have finished going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes", you are saying those passages had absolutely no direct relevance to them, yet when Jesus told His disciples, "In a little while, you will no longer see me" it applied directly to them alone.

Autumn, you've got to give me some kind of scriptural precident for your sporadic "acceptance and denial" of "original audience relevnce" Show me where the Bible tells you to accept it in one place, and completely deny it in another that uses the exact same verbage

"Because it's the 2nd coming" isn't good enough.

Originally posted by Autumn


I also believe that the Scriptures apply to us as well. We can take the letters that Paul, James, Peter, etc. wrote to the churches and apply them to our lives. If they were simply written to the audience at that time, then they really don't apply to my life at all. I believe they were written in Spirit, and do apply.

Click to expand...

On this we absolutely agree. All scripture can be applied to our lives today, as it was all written for us, but as evidenced in Php 2:19, all scripture was not written to us. ALL scripture was written TO those who first received the message. All of it. Only when we can discover what any given pasage meant to those who first recieved it, can we apply it to our lives today. There is no scripture that did not have a direct, tangible application to the people who first recieved it. Not a single one. This Idea that some scriptures were not meant for the original audience and were only meant for us today is entirely unsupportable from scripture

Originally posted by Autumn
2 Peter 3
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat.

Click to expand...

This speaks of the end of the "Heavens and earth" of "operational Biblical Judiasm" and the "elements", [Greek "stoicheion"] (basic rudimentary principles of the Law) would melt, and they Did right along with the temple!

This Heavens and earth that was to burn, was the heavens and earth God created after he parted the sea and brought the Hebrew people out of egypt. (Isaiah 51:16)

Autumn, Paul says the "day of the Lord" is the 2nd coming, Peter above says that on the Day of the Lord, the heavens and earth pass away.... where'd the millennium go in Peter's theology?

Originally posted by Autumn
Now I have a few questions for you, Parousia70.
Don't babies still die only a couple days old? Do all men live out their days? I know that my aunt, who loves the Lord, gave birth to a still born baby at 7mo.. I also know my grandfather, who loved the Lord, died at 62. If we are now in the "new heaven and earth", this shouldn't be.

Click to expand...

Well Autumn,
when you view this passage "covenentally" , as I do, it makes perfect sense that we are todayliving in the time described by Isaiah.

What Does God call our sin nature?
Our "Old Man" (Romans 6:6)

And what are we when we become Christian,ie; be "Born again"? We are Infants in Christ.
Jesus said we must be "like Children" in order to enter the Kingdom!

Now, Isaiah says that no more there and infant that lives but a few days. That is covenentally true in the new covenant. no matter when the "infant" in Christ dies physically, even at 100, his eternal life is just beginning, wouldn't you agree?

In Contrast, the "old Man" (unrepentant sinner) in the New H&E will have in fact lived out the entirety of his days, no matter when he physically dies.

The fact that physical death is mentioned, proves it still exists int he New H&E, but only effects those not in Christ. Notice how the 100 year old is still considered a Child? thats because 100 years of life for the Christian is a mere speck of their "eternal" life, wouldn't you agree?


...Good post Autumn, I'have to go for now, but look forward to your next reply!

In Christ,
P70

Originally posted by Autumn
I was looking on some of the preterist sights and David B. Curtis used this verse to suggest that Jesus has already come. This makes me question his interpretation of Scripture very seriously.

He used 2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

He uses the underlined part to suggest that Christ has already come! Clearly this is not what this passage was about.

Click to expand...

Autumn,
Could you describe how he uses that verse to support the assertion that Christ Has come?

Thanks

Originally posted by Autumn
He used 2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

He uses the underlined part to suggest that Christ has already come! Clearly this is not what this passage was about.

Click to expand...

G'day Autumn I can't speak for David Curtis, but I'm wondering if you're reading him correctly? He wouldn't [I think -and please correct me if I'm wrong] be using this verse to say Jesus has already come, but rather, saying that "some" were saying this. There was a false teaching floating around at the time that was saying just that -"that Christ had already returned." Paul rebukes the likes of Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2Tm 2:17-18 for spreading the same false teaching, for some were falling away from the faith and following after them. It is interesting that Paul challenges Hymenaeus and Philetus' "timing" issue, but not the nature of Christ's coming that they were proclaiming. You would think that if the resurrection was a "physical event" then there would be "physical evidence" of such -empty graves, resurrected saints, a changed world, no more dying [all elements of futurism], had such a resurrection actually occured, but there is none of this, and yet still people are falling from "the faith" -so much so that Paul under divine inspiration needs to step in and bring the rebuke that he did.

Logic says the 1st century believers were not awaiting a "physical resurrection" -can you see this?

davo

Is that your final automated answer?

If I may ask a couple of questions that I haven't seen addressed (if they were, my apologies) in this discussion:

The first passage may have been dealt with. It's a popular one, which is why I wonder if I missed it or not.

" Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Matthew 24:35,36

(Read also the parable of the talents in Matthew 25 ALONG WITH JESUS' WORDS ON THE PARABLE and even down to verse 31.)

I know I'm not necessarily futurist with this understanding, but I think this verse is clear in saying Jesus WILL return, but that His return will be accompanied by the passing away of the present heavens and earth. No thousand years as is commonly understood, but the Lord returning (as I Thess says) to exact punishment on those who know not God nor obey His gospel. All of this is declared as future in the scriptures. And Peter even describes the destruction of the heavens and earth (as has been posted here a couple of times). The destruction of what we see is still to come. It will happen. As Peter said "...the elements will melt with fervent heat...". He even described the societal trends of those 'last days'. Until now, there has not even been a possibility of a total fulfillment of those descriptions. Our society is a society of scoffers. And, as I think the second passage portrays, those who scoff don't necessarily have to be unbelievers:

" But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 24:43-51

There are several parts of this passage that are important - all of them accented in different ways (bold, italics and underline). The whole chapter talks of Christ's coming. It is certain. Only the Father knows the day and the hour. And the Lord of the servant implies those who are supposed to be doing His Will - but we see that they stop looking for Him to come. They wind up being VERY surprised at His return. The Kingdom exists NOW, but Christ's return is still to come. Not to set up His Kingdom, but to take total visible authority. Not all has been subdued to Him yet. When it is, He will hand it over to the Father:

" But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE DESTROYED IS DEATH.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."
I Cor 15:20-28 (emphasis mine)

Note that I am not saying there is any rapture or anything like that, but that Christ returns at the point of the destruction of the heavens and the earth. "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will NEVER pass away..."

Responses? Comments?

Comments?

Click to expand...

It's funny i spent a few hours yesterday going through a few of these older threads and was even going to bump this one so i wouldn't have to search for it again. There's a lot to past fulfillment that makes a lot of sense to me..i'm not there yet but still studying.

Hi Nicolas,

" Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Matthew 24:35,36

I wonder if this verse even has all that much to do with the coming of the son of man.

I don't know if I can verbalize my thoughts here or not because I only consider biblical possibilities here and I base this on precious little.

Jesus said: I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

He then tells us Heaven and earth will pass away, but His words won't.
I wonder if that isn't just telling us how true His statements in the previous conversation has been.

Next why do we consider that Jesus doesn't know the day or the hour of His coming. His reference could more easily be to the phrase "heaven and earth will pass away" and nobody knows the day or the hour of that.

Also when we experience physical death, the present heavens(sky) and earth pass away from us or at least we pass away from them.

Certain verses also lead me to believe that the passing away of this heaven and earth is not the final day of the third rock from the sun. This I see as the change from the old covenant to the new one.

I wonder if this isn't actually one place where one of Jesus' prophecy actually does have multiple fullfillments.

Naturally what this post really says is I don't know what Matthew 24:35,36 mean, but I read this thread with interest.

Justme

Hi...

I'm not here to debate, but am simply asking questions and posing my thoughts and possibilities. So forgive me if I don't always explain myself fully. Here are my responses to your post:

Justme said:

Hi Nicolas,

" Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Matthew 24:35,36

I wonder if this verse even has all that much to do with the coming of the son of man.

Click to expand...

I can't accept that. The entire passage speaks of the coming of the Son of man and His return and the servants who say "My Lord delays His coming" and "...you know not what hour our Lord doth come." and "...whom his lord WHEN HE COMETH..." and "Heaven and earth shall pass away...".

I don't know if I can verbalize my thoughts here or not because I only consider biblical possibilities here and I base this on precious little.

Jesus said: I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Click to expand...

Well, I never really could accept a rigid definition of the term 'generation'. When Jesus talks to the Pharisees, He calls them hypocrites for not discerning the times. The times are not a series of years, but I see them as Jesus portrays them - as a succession of events that may happen tomorrow or may happen in a thousand years. It isn't a matter of time that way, but a matter of what must happen next, then next then.... etc... And when we see how Jesus defines the generation, He doesn't reckon it by years, but (again) by characteristics:

" But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children."
Matthew 11:16-19

That is a generation - the characteristics of individuals is how He reckons generations. And I believe that still applies today. Many say "Lord, Lord" but don't know Him and that continues today. But I don't believe it will for much longer.

He then tells us Heaven and earth will pass away, but His words won't.
I wonder if that isn't just telling us how true His statements in the previous conversation has been.

Click to expand...

In light of Peter's epistle which describes the elements melting "...with fervent heat..." and "...the end of all things is at hand...", I have to believe that what Jesus said is absolutely, literally true.

Next why do we consider that Jesus doesn't know the day or the hour of His coming. His reference could more easily be to the phrase "heaven and earth will pass away" and nobody knows the day or the hour of that.

Also when we experience physical death, the present heavens(sky) and earth pass away from us or at least we pass away from them.

Click to expand...

I could accept this, but again we are talking in context of Jesus speaking of certain times, of characteristics of an age. All men will die, granted, but I don't recall Jesus ever phrasing anything so that men would understand it. He stated the truth without changing it - whether people understood or not (and He often did so in parables so that the truth WOULDN'T be apparent to them). So when He talks about heaven and earth passing away, I have to believe He means it literally - not from any individual's point of view.

Certain verses also lead me to believe that the passing away of this heaven and earth is not the final day of the third rock from the sun. This I see as the change from the old covenant to the new one.

Click to expand...

Again, in light of 2 Peter 3, I believe it is very literal.

I wonder if this isn't actually one place where one of Jesus' prophecy actually does have multiple fullfillments.

Click to expand...

That's quite possible, I agree. But it doesn't change the literal nature of it, IMO.

Naturally what this post really says is I don't know what Matthew 24:35,36 mean, but I read this thread with interest.

Justme

Click to expand...

I did, too. It is an interesting topic. And since I'm not what one would call a futurist or preterist (more like some kind of historicist), it intrigues me for different reasons.

(Read also the parable of the talents in Matthew 25 ALONG WITH JESUS' WORDS ON THE PARABLE and even down to verse 31.)

Click to expand...

Hi Nikolai,

In both parables in Chap 25 you will also notice that the Bridegroom and the Master of the household both come back to the same people they left, not to their children or childrens children etc.

Read what Jesus tells Caiaiphus in Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

If you read both Thessalonian letters, they go like this: Paul tells them to prepare for the coming of the Lord, tells them He hasn't come yet and then tells them to wait patiently for Christ. You have to ask yourself the question. If the Thessalonians were told to wait patiently for Christ by Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, would that not be a guarantee that Christ would come to them?

All 7 churches in Revelation were told that Christ would come to them, and none of those churches exist today.

So all these and many more are obvious. So it all comes down to "A new heavens and a new earth", doesn't it?

So I will leave you with this:

2 Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

We are new creatures in a new creation, the Temple of God, New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven adorned as a bride, we are the two olive trees grafted into the natural root symbolizing the New Israel the one new man, with Jesus as our high priest forever...

This all happens literally, but it is all spiritual.

Ed

ArtistEd said:

Hi Nikolai,

In both parables in Chap 25 you will also notice that the Bridegroom and the Master of the household both come back to the same people they left, not to their children or childrens children etc.

Click to expand...

Exactly. And in 2 Peter, we find Peter saying it is better for men never to have know Christ than to know Him and fall away. For just that reason. Those who know much and don't do what they know will be beaten with many stripes. Those who know little and don't do His Will will be beaten with few.

As for children's children etc..., did Christ not come the first time for you or I?

Read what Jesus tells Caiaiphus in Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

If you read both Thessalonian letters, they go like this: Paul tells them to prepare for the coming of the Lord, tells them He hasn't come yet and then tells them to wait patiently for Christ. You have to ask yourself the question. If the Thessalonians were told to wait patiently for Christ by Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, would that not be a guarantee that Christ would come to them?

Click to expand...

No, because in Peter's epistle we find Peter saying this:

" But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"
2 Peter 3:7-15

A thousand years is as a day. The Lord may delay it as long as He likes (in time, that is) but that doesn't change Christ's return. That's one reason I see Christ as not knowing the day or the hour - it is in the Father's hands. Time is not an issue with God. He measures ages by events that occur. So an age (and a generation) are accounted by their characteristics, not by how long they last.

All 7 churches in Revelation were told that Christ would come to them, and none of those churches exist today.

Click to expand...

Again, we are dealing with characteristics of churches. Laodicea is a PERFECT picture of today's church. And it happens to be the last word of Christ to the churches....

Yes, they were also to specific churches in specific places, but time does not limit the Lord. There are many who display the characteristics of the Philiadelphian church, the Laodicean church, the church at Sardis etc....

So all these and many more are obvious. So it all comes down to "A new heavens and a new earth", doesn't it?

So I will leave you with this:

2 Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away

Click to expand...

I would encourage you to read the description further. You will find the description of a new heavens and a new earth literally. No more sea, for one. We still have seas. No more death. We still have death. No more tears...

Need I go on?

We are new creatures in a new creation, the Temple of God, New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven adorned as a bride, we are the two olive trees grafted into the natural root symbolizing the New Israel the one new man, with Jesus as our high priest forever...

This all happens literally, but it is all spiritual.

Ed

Click to expand...

I agree. And the literal dissolution of the literal heavens and earth is still to come, according to scripture.

Hi nikolai_42.

(1) Hebrews 12:26-29, which is the parallel of 2 Peter 3, shows that the dissolution of the Old Covenant World is what is meant--not the planets and outerspace. Study Hebrews 12.

(2) Peter's use of "elements" (Gr. "stoicheon") in 2 Peter 3 is not the "periodic table" (a modern misconception), but rather the rudimentary principles of the Law of Moses which were to pass away in some fiery destruction (see NT usage of "stoicheon" - Gal 4:3, Gal 4:9, Col 2:8, Col 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12).

The "stoicheon" (elements) were the foundational elements of the Mosaic Covenant and Temple, and the "works therein" were the "works of the law." In every New Testament use, the stoicheon (elements) are the elementary principles, philosphies, or ordinances of the Law of Moses (Gal 4:3, Gal 4:9, Col 2:8, Col 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12).

(3) Finally, we know Peter does not mean the whole planet and outerspace, for he states that Noah lived in some different "heavens and earth" than what Peter himself occupied (2 Peter 3:5-7). In Peter's usage of changes in the "heavens and earth," it is clear he means a change of civilizations or covenant ages, and not the material cosmology of planets and outerspace. And such was the common usage by the OT prophets as well.

GW said:

Hi nikolai_42.

(1) Hebrews 12:26-29, which is the parallel of 2 Peter 3, shows that the dissolution of the Old Covenant World is what is meant--not the planets and outerspace. Study Hebrews 12.

Click to expand...

I don't see where Hebrews speaks of merely the destruction of the Law. It appears the author is speaking of a shaking that will shake all things - irrespective. What remains is what will continue on into the visible outworking of the Kingdom as promised in Revelation 21. Those elements are not with us now (no death, no tears, no sea, no curse) in fullness, but they are coming when the earth and heavens pass away. A man's work will be tried by fire - absolutely. And what remains will go into the Kingdom when it appears visibly (as it is already in force today, though not seen as a political kingdom is today). I don't doubt that a lot of the fulfillment is spiritual, but that spiritual fulfillment will include a destruction of things as they are today in EVERY way. Just as the earth was destroyed with water in Noah's day, so will it be destroyed with fire in a day to come. New Heavens and new Earth is just that - new. Yes, it is spiritual in connotation, but that encompasses the physical. There is no doubt about it in Peter, and Hebrews does nothing do dissuade that, as far as I can see.

(2) Peter's use of "elements" (Gr. "stoicheon") in 2 Peter 3 is not the "periodic table" (a modern misconception), but rather the rudimentary principles of the Law of Moses which were to pass away in some fiery destruction (see NT usage of "stoicheon" - Gal 4:3, Gal 4:9, Col 2:8, Col 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12).

The "stoicheon" (elements) were the foundational elements of the Mosaic Covenant and Temple, and the "works therein" were the "works of the law." In every New Testament use, the stoicheon (elements) are the elementary principles, philosphies, or ordinances of the Law of Moses (Gal 4:3, Gal 4:9, Col 2:8, Col 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12).

Click to expand...

I don't doubt it. And the elements are going to pass away with the heavens and the earth. It's not JUST the elements of the law that pass away, but the heavens and the earth. As Jesus said - His words will never pass away, but heaven and earth will. The elements are included in it. I still don't see any contradiction with a destruction of this temporal realm and earth accompanying a future return of the King of Kings.

(3) Finally, we know Peter does not mean the whole planet and outerspace, for he states that Noah lived in some different "heavens and earth" than what Peter himself occupied (2 Peter 3:5-7). In Peter's usage of changes in the "heavens and earth," it is clear he means a change of civilizations or covenant ages, and not the material cosmology of planets and outerspace. And such was the common usage by the OT prophets as well.

Click to expand...

I could accept that this means simply the passing away of all the ungodly. However, the destruction of the earth by fire seems to me to imply something different. Yet, even if that is so, it lines right up with what Paul says to the Thessalonians:

" Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; "
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

And so I can see it if that is the destruction by fire. But when I look at Revelation, I see what John speaks of in a new heavens and new earth (which shows up immediately following the punishment of the ungodly as Paul says it above) and he talks about no more tears, sorrow, death, curse or even sea. The total end of death as we know it. That has not happened yet. It may well be a thing of process, but the culmination has not come. And the culmination will be with the return of Christ. Because then He will return to take the Kingdom visibly and hand it over to the Father. That's the way I see it and I don't see full preterism as bearing the scriptures out. I accept that partial preterism may be the best stance (or, as I believe, historicism) because I don't see Satan increasing or things that occur on the earth to be (of themselves) as critical as futurists do (e.g. the mark of the beast being VISA or some such thing and the AntiChrist being a specific individual to come...that is not scriptural either). But full preterism, as far as I can see, scoffs at scripture - specifically the return of Christ. So that full preterism (or is it hyperpreterism) becomes the venue for asking (in effect) "Where is this promised return of the Lord?"

NIKOLAI:
I don't see where Hebrews speaks of merely the destruction of the Law. It appears the author is speaking of a shaking that will shake all things - irrespective.

GW:
Go back and start at Heb 12:18, and you will see that the contrast is being made between the Old and New Covenant ages. The author states that God "shook the earth" to establish the Mosaic age, but now in their time he was "shaking once more," for they were receiving the New Covenant kingdom Jesus gave them (Matt 21:43/Heb 12:28/Mark 1:14-15). The Old Covenant age was at that moment (i.e., AD 64-66) waxing old and was "about to vanish away" (Heb 8:13). It did vanish away just about five years later at AD 70, for "in a very, very short while, He who was coming came and did not delay" (Heb 10:37).

According to the writer of Hebrews, God was removing the first covenant age so as to establish the second:

--COMPARE THIS--

Hebrews 12:27
And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace...

--TO THIS--

Hebrews 10:9
Then said I: Behold, I come to do thy will, O God: he taketh away the first [covenant], that he may establish the second.

--AND TO THIS--

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first [covenant] obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

--AND TO THIS--

2 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11
[God] made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? ... For if that which is fading away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Simply put, the Old Covenant world was being removed, and the New Covenant World was being erected in its place. All that took place in the last days period of the Old Coveanant age.




NIKOLAI:
And the elements are going to pass away with the heavens and the earth. It's not JUST the elements of the law that pass away, but the heavens and the earth.

GW:
The "elements" (stoicheon) are the entire Mosaic economy (as in NT usage). Those "elements" cannot pass away in the future--they passed away at AD70.



NIKOLAI:
As Jesus said - His words will never pass away, but heaven and earth will.

GW:
Correct. The Mosaic economy/covenant (the blood sacrificial Temple religion) was to pass (Matt 24:1-3), and only the Christic economy/covenant based on Christ's law and teachings was to remain.



NIKOLAI:
I could accept that this means simply the passing away of all the ungodly. However, the destruction of the earth by fire seems to me to imply something different. Yet, even if that is so, it lines right up with what Paul says to the Thessalonians:

" Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; " 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9


GW:
Read that 2 Thess passage very closely. The first-century Thessalonians were being persecuted (read Acts 17:5-9), and their relief from that persecution was to come via the Parousia of Christ (2 Thess 1:6-9). That places the event in their lifetimes, which is when they were expecting it (2 Thess 2:2). Paul taught his flock of some Parousia in their lifetimes that was to end their persecution, and he could not have erred. For also in the first letter to them, Paul says to them "we that are alive and remain unto the Parousia of the Lord..." (1 Thess 4:15), teaching them of a first-century expectation.


NIKOLAI:
But full preterism, as far as I can see, scoffs at scripture - specifically the return of Christ.

GW:
Just the opposite is true. Full preterism teaches the Parousia that the apostles taught -- the one that was near, soon, and at hand in the first century, and that would transpire before their generation was passed (Matt 24:34/Mt 23:36). That is the only Parousia of Christ they knew of, and it was for their generation.

Exactly. And in 2 Peter, we find Peter saying it is better for men never to have know Christ than to know Him and fall away. For just that reason. Those who know much and don't do what they know will be beaten with many stripes. Those who know little and don't do His Will will be beaten with few.

Click to expand...

Chapter 24 and 25 are the same conversation and I was pointing out that these two parables show Christ comes back to the same generation that he left.

So what is your reason the Thessalonians were told to patiently wait for Christ?

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Click to expand...

Exactly why he's going to keep the promises he made to the ones he made it to and again why were the Thessalonians told to wait patiently for Christ?

So an age (and a generation) are accounted by their characteristics, not by how long they last.

Click to expand...

really?
Matthew 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

That's like saying a century is known by its characteristics not how long it is.

Again, we are dealing with characteristics of churches. Laodicea is a PERFECT picture of today's church. And it happens to be the last word of Christ to the churches....

Click to expand...

It is not even close to that. The worldwide Church is bigger and stronger than ever. There are more people claiming to be born again than ever before, The churches in China, South America, and Africa are growing by leaps and bounds despite severe persecution. So I don't know where you got this idea from, but it's false on its face. In the church of Laodicea, there was nothing good. Do you claim to be a Laodicean, of course not. Again, it's like saying a person is known by his characteristics and therefore he's not limited to his own life since some of his characteristics may be repeated by someone else someday.

Yes, they were also to specific churches in specific places, but time does not limit the Lord. There are many who display the characteristics of the Philiadelphian church, the Laodicean church, the church at Sardis etc....

Click to expand...

Time doesn't, but His word does. Each of these Seven Churches were given a letter that said He was coming to them and quickly. There is no inference at all to be taken the way you state. What does Asia symbolize in your doctrine?

gw speaks as a jew, Dear Sheep of The Lord, for if Jesus came into the world and took the air and having all Knowledge and Power by The Holy Gpirit/Ghost and fashioned from that same air Baked Bread and Cooked fish(for neither did Jesus have to go harvest the wheat, beat it, and bake it, NOR go to the sea to fish.), then i tell you all He will by The Father Fashion a NEW Heaven and a New Earth both spiritually and PHYSICALLY. amen amen amen
Does knowledge of God means as MEN SEE IT? Nay it does NOT.
it means as you see it by The Holy Ghost.
But has gw yet been educated of The SPIRIT? Nay he has not.
Does he so then have an understanding of Paul?
He does not by The Spirit of The Lord God have an understanding of Paul. amen
i am nothing0
Jesus is The Lord1Praise The Lord1The Lord Jesus. amen
Try harder gw

Third Heaven
JESUS IS THE LORD1PRAISE THE LORD1THE LORD JESUS. AMEN
SINCE YOU ARE PERHAPS A LITTLE UNEASY AT my COMING, THEN i WILL GO AHEAD AND GIVE YOU THE INFORMATION.
For all men in the absence of an explaination on their part pretend i am not here. amen
Life is not about money spent nor earned, nay it is about Charity given.
Go ye therfore and cast thy wealth among all the nations, shewing to all that by this charitable act you indeed do love they enemy. amen
Third Heaven(Now i speak a man.)
About 25 years ago, i went to a party that a friend of mine had heard about. He said ther were going to be a lot of girls. i was at that age where this was what life was all about. We went to the party and sure enought there were a lot of girls there, and maybe too many guys. But we stayed anyway to see what might happen. i set down on a couch and began to listen to the conversation. To my surprise all were talking about Jesus Christ.
i though it was strange my friend had brought me to this kind of party....neither of us having been to church in a few years. As i was about to get up and suggest we leave, a wind and light of sorts came into the room. No one seemed to notice this.

i sat there waiting to see what was going on, and then what looked like two sets of hands with fingers glowing from a soft light within the fingers, appeared about one inch above each and every person's head in the room. These lighted fingers swayed back and forth gently, much like water was pushing them back and forth like the movement of a current of a sea anemone. These fingers were fatter and longer thatn those of a man. Only one half of the hands were showing. The rest disappeared in a much brighter lighted base. The whole thing had the appearance of a CROWN over a person's head. As i looked as this thing, i heard a VOICE speaking from it. i looked at the mouth of the girl over whom this crown was, to see if it was her saying these things.

i was shocked to hear her saying by her mouth one thing and the light over her head another thing. i then became afraid for my life....i looked around the room and saw no one else noticed this thing, and they all with crowns over their heads.
i got up and went into the bathroom to throw some water on my face. i did this and then saw a fruit jar full of money sitting by the sink. i looked at it and thought i might like to have some of it for myself. When i thought this, the money turned into a snake and begin to writhe inside the jar. i thought that is enought and went to my friend and told him we needed to leave and go somewhere else. HE was surprised, but said ok. As we went out the door and walked across the lawn, i was suddendly taken by a feeling i was going somewhere, but my body was staying behind.

i stood on the banks of a great body of water, and looked out over what appeared like the ocean i had seen before. i saw small waves falling at my feet, and saw how the water flowed down along the beach. i did not know how this could be for all the water as far as i could see was flowing horizontally to the beach and not perpendicular into the shore, before flowing back out to the ocean....not even the same as a rip tide. All the warer was flowing like a river.