Universal salvation

GodsWatchman · Jul 12, 2004

debiwebi said:
And tell me do you believe in the Garden of Eden that the Lord created Evil? Do you think that when He created the Heavens and the Earth that He created Evil?

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7).

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Lam 3:38).

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13).

" ... I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives..." (II Sam. 12:11).

"That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

" ... I have created the waster to destroy." (Isa. 54:16).

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4).

" ... I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction." (Jer. 4:6).

" ... Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people ... " (Jer. 6:19).

"And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." " ... And He [God] said, ... go forth, and do so." (I Kg. 22:22).

"He [God] turned their heart to hate his people ... " (Psa. 105:25).

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... " (Jer. 18:11).

" ... For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32).

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

" ... so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land ... " (Josh. 23:15).

" ... shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Am. 3:6).

"For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging ever son to whom He is assenting" (Heb. 12:5).

"By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the Crooked serpent" (Job 26:14). "And the great dragon was cast out, the Ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan ... " (Rev. 12:9).

"Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (I Jn 3:8).

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:10, see 42:7).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek ... destroy ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ... " (I Sam. 15:2-3).

" ... God will be sending them an operation of deception for them to believe the falsehood ... " (II The. 2:11-12).

Debi1967 · Jul 12, 2004

And none of those scriptures disprove my post. All of them took place after Original Sin had taken place and Satan had indeed Originated Evil. He was not the Originator although He used it and created it to be used for his own use, when it was needed after it was already introduced. In all of the instances that you are referring to as well it is also being used as punishment. It is because people have already been given the choice and chose otherwise.

And to further the point, He did create us with the potential to sin. He even created Adam and Eve with the potential to sin. They acted on that potential and because of that we bear the scares of it therefore evil or sin. anything that is sinful is evil to God. But although He created the potential to sin does that mean that He created sin because He gave the freedom of choice? No it was those that took that freedom of choice, the first being Satan. So, Satan is the Author and Originator of Sin or Evil.

Do you mean to tell me that God cannot use something because He did not Originate it's occurance. Did He create the potential? Yes He did, but that is all. It was two perfect human beings that acted on it. All because they wanted to be like God. Because they were not happy with all that had been given to them. A perfect paradise at that point. They chose using their own Free Will to act on the potential given to them to sin or to do Evil towards to the one that gave them life to begin with. This again was after the originator of this Evil tempted them in the Garden of Eden, and that is Satan.

So does He create Evil in the terms that you are talking about? No He does not. He creates the potential. Whether we act on that potential is our choice. And as we can see from the Beginning of time it has been that way because He even created the Angels with the same potential. This is demonstrated to us by that of the fallen Angels or what we now call Demons or what everyou like, all headed by the one called Satan.

And yes, because of those fallen Angels, he did have to create the darkness. Can anyone tell me what the darkness would actually be? If he created the Light, and the Darkness, put into perspective what those two things would be, knowing that God could see not only the past and the present but also the future and how all things would end.

gort · Jul 12, 2004

My opinion of darkness is the lack of light. God is not there. His light shines on the just and the unjust, and on those that are His Sons and Daughters, the light is much brighter. There is no light in evil, unless it is a false light.

<><

Debi1967 · Jul 12, 2004

daneel said:
My opinion of darkness is the lack of light. God is not there. His light shines on the just and the unjust, and on those that are His Sons and Daughters, the light is much brighter. There is no light in evil, unless it is a false light.

<><

Ok then, Who creates that False Light? Now I want you to remember that God does allow Evil and does and has used it, but who specifically creates False Light for people to follow? Is that God or is that Satan?

gort · Jul 12, 2004

Is there evil in God?

No. Satan is a false light.

<><

blessedbe · Jul 12, 2004

What I'm wondering about in the Garden is whether Adam and Eve knew what they were doing? I mean, the tree was the tree of good and evil was it not? It was the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. So before they ate the fruit, they did not have the knowledge of good and evil, so how did they willfully go against God? They didn't even know what good and evil was, until afterwards....

I just wonder what kind of "state" they were in before they ate of the fruit. And how they were "made in the image of God before they ate of the fruit. I've heard that that is what is meant when God speaks of us being made in his image. Not that we "look" like God, but that we have "knowledge" that animals lack, specifically knowledge of good and bad, and consequences of our actions and a self-awareness. But Adam and Eve did not have any of that before they ate the fruit from the Tree, did they?

Any thoughts?

Debi1967 · Jul 12, 2004

I want you to remember that God did indeed tell them of the consequences of their actions beforehand if they ate of the tree. So they had to know what those consequences were or they would have meant nothing to say to them. He told them that if they ate of the tree they would positively die.
Genesis 2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

If we as Christians are to believe the Word that says we are made in His image then we must believe that the Tree of Good and Evil that stood in the Garden of Eden had a much different signifcance. After the eating of the fruit you begin to see the development of what was wrought forth by eating the fruit. You begin to see that they even became ashamed of themselves which they were not before. And if you bring that to their children Cain and Able to see what was wrought forth there...You see the fulfillment of Good vs Evil and it's battle. The Good was Life that was created...the Evil was Death that was brought forth by the Serpent that we all know seduced Eve in the Garden and then by her own choice chose to believe the Serpent and go against the wishes of the Creator. The whole time fully knowing the penalty for this action. Satan was the first to Originate this and then seduced the first of humankind to follow him. Thereby leaving us stained with Original Sin. To which God answered with the redemption of our Lord and Saviour Jesus.

saltoearth · Jul 13, 2004

debiwebi said:
1Corinthians 10
[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]13[/font][font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it.[/font]
You do know of this verse do you not?

And tell me do you believe in the Garden of Eden that the Lord created Evil? Do you think that when He created the Heavens and the Earth that He created Evil?

Or was this brought about and then He himself did then create it as well. But the point is He did not Author it....It was Authored by Satan. Which means that He allows and at times does create it for his use yes, but the Originator of Evil was Satan not the Lord. And in that there is a difference. He also makes it so that those that are His righteous will be able to overcome the Evil, and that they will be able to bear it as the scripture states. He has protected us, if we believe and have Faith then we must believe that nothing will come our way that we cannot handle with the help and guiding hand of the Lord and that we are alway under His protection because of this. Thus the Originator of Evil cannot get to us, His Righteous People.

Pax Christi
Debi

Ps do not accuse me of ignorance again I do not take well to it. What I do believe is to take everything the Bible has to say and to put it together into proper context, the Bible is a harmonious and Living book...it does not I repeat does not contradict itself. So therfore maybe it is you that needs to go back and look through the scriptures again, in order to get their full context.

Actually I never implied your ignorance at all, instead I said the exact opposite, that you know what the bible says and choose of your own freewill to deny it.

and now you have repeated your denial of the truth again, against the clear teaching of the Word of God

Do you think that when He created the Heavens and the Earth that He created Evil?

obviously you do not

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ben johnson · Jul 13, 2004

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

From Blueletterbible.com: Ra' --- "distress, adversity, calamity."

NASV: "The One forming light and creating darkness; causing well-being (peace) and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

Debi1967 · Jul 13, 2004

saltoearth said:
Actually I never implied your ignorance at all, instead I said the exact opposite, that you know what the bible says and choose of your own freewill to deny it.

and now you have repeated your denial of the truth again, against the clear teaching of the Word of God

obviously you do not

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Who Created Satan?...... :doh:

Satan the Originator of Evil and Demon of Sin....Umm Think about it......I do not deny anything and I see the scriptures quite clearly, for I read them in CONTEXT......

Now I have an honest question for you, is this because you do not agree with my posts and my line of thinking, or is it because you see the words Orthodox Catholic and see a Catholic icon and think that as a Catholic I cannot possibly know what the Bible says? I have provided more than ample scriptural proof and your only defense to all of this was to keep quoting one scripture? I have also too written a thorough post on this and it's significance, which you will see was also supported. Please reread my posts. Also a little clue, I recently converted back to Catholicism, before that I was a Sola Scripturist for many years. In fact when I originally started posting on these boards I was PRE. I converted back to Catholicism on these boards. I would never in my life deny the Word of God or anything that is written in it.

Der Alte · Jul 13, 2004

saltoearth said:
Actually I never implied your ignorance at all, instead I said the exact opposite, that you know what the bible says and choose of your own freewill to deny it.

and now you have repeated your denial of the truth again, against the clear teaching of the Word of God

obviously you do not

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I am so sick of hearing this nonsense. Salt, instead of copy pasting this garbage, that has been refuted for centuries before either one of us were born, would it be too much trouble to ask you to actually read the Bible yourself and learn what it says, and the context of this verse? This passage has nothing to do with creation, per se, but God is telling Cyrus, the Persian, His instrument, how He, God, will bring Cyrus victory. And the evil is for those who contend with their maker.

[bible]Isaiah 45:1-3[/bible]

[bible]Isaiah 45:9[/bible]

May I suggest before you post any more of the same old, same old, knee jerk, supposed errors and contradictions you do a little homework and look for the solution with the same diligence you try to tear down God and the Bible?

You can do this by going to your browser and typing "Bible contradictions refuted." You will have more hits than you can handle. You have not found anything new. Every so-called error and contradiction you can possibly think of is addressed somewhere.

G4m · Jul 13, 2004

Ben johnson said:
From Blueletterbible.com: Ra' --- "distress, adversity, calamity."

NASV: "The One forming light and creating darkness; causing well-being (peace) and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these."

What about light and darkness?

GodsWatchman · Jul 13, 2004

Der Alter said:
I am so sick of hearing this nonsense. Salt, instead of copy pasting this garbage...

Verses from the Word of God? Garbage?

See top of page for Lots of good Garbage

http://www.christianforums.com/t717685&page=3

Debi1967 · Jul 13, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
Verses from the Word of God? Garbage?

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (Isa. 45:7).

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?" (Lam 3:38).

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13).

" ... I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives..." (II Sam. 12:11).

"That which is molded will not protest to the molder, 'Why do you make me thus?' Or has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

" ... I have created the waster to destroy." (Isa. 54:16).

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov. 16:4).

" ... I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction." (Jer. 4:6).

" ... Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people ... " (Jer. 6:19).

"And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." " ... And He [God] said, ... go forth, and do so." (I Kg. 22:22).

"He [God] turned their heart to hate his people ... " (Psa. 105:25).

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... " (Jer. 18:11).

" ... For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all." (Rom. 11:32).

"O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

" ... so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land ... " (Josh. 23:15).

" ... shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Am. 3:6).

"For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging ever son to whom He is assenting" (Heb. 12:5).

"By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the Crooked serpent" (Job 26:14). "And the great dragon was cast out, the Ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan ... " (Rev. 12:9).

"Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning." (I Jn 3:8).

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." (Job 2:10, see 42:7).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts ... go and smite Amalek ... destroy ... slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ... " (I Sam. 15:2-3).

" ... God will be sending them an operation of deception for them to believe the falsehood ... " (II The. 2:11-12).

I have already answered this post and you are on the verge of spamming......
Post 22 I know you can see my posts GodsWatchman that is why you posted that to begin with, go back and answer the post that I made First......

GodsWatchman · Jul 13, 2004

debiwebi said:
I have already answered this post and you are on the verge of spamming......
Post 22 I know you can see my posts GodsWatchman that is why you posted that to begin with, go back and answer the post that I made First......

Accusations of crimes aside - my bad.... didn't realize it was this thread that I had put that in. Repaired

Der Alte · Jul 14, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
Verses from the Word of God? Garbage?

See top of page for Lots of good Garbage
http://www.christianforums.com/t717685&page=3

I noticed a Christian icon beside your posting name. That indicates you are a Christian. Does a Christian deliberately misrepresent and mistate what another person says in order to further their argument?

Do you understand the concept of reading in-context? I think it is abundantly clear to anyone who is not legally blind what I was calling garbage and that is the misquoting and mistating of scripture, trying to prove an anti-Biblical presupposition, which you also have done, quoting a long list of out-of-context scriptures. I think I adequately showed how the scripture in question was taken out-of-context. But enemies of God and the Bible are not interested in things like that.

Once again, to you also, if you think the Bible is full of errors and contradictions then may I suggest you go to your browser and type the words "Bible errors or contradictions refuted." If that cross by your name means anything, you should be spending at least as much, if not more, time trying to support the Bible as you are trying to tear it down. And if you do want to try to find the real answer to all of the scriptures you quoted out-of-context then may I suggest you get rid of the cross. You are misusing it.

GodsWatchman · Jul 14, 2004

Der Alter said:
...
Once again, to you also, if you think the Bible is full of errors and contradictions then may I suggest you go to your browser and type the words "Bible errors or contradictions refuted." If that cross by your name means anything, you should be spending at least as much, if not more, time trying to support the Bible as you are trying to tear it down. And if you do want to try to find the real answer to all of the scriptures you quoted out-of-context then may I suggest you get rid of the cross. You are misusing it.

Excuse me ? Where did I state ANYTHING AT ALL? I mearly pasted verses in - the rest is all presumptuous.

I never suggested any contradictions in the Word of God whatsoever.

Do you not understand that Satan is a TOOL of God - That he was CREATED to be the tool? That God is in TOTAL CONTROL OF ALL THINGS? Including SATAN? Watch Paul USE Satan as a tool himself:

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

( BTW - Note that destruction = salvation )

God doesn't make MISTAKES - He created Satan explicitly for the reason He uses him for : EVIL / CALAMITY / ADVERSITY / DARKNESS

And its no "supprise" when Satan does a thing - God CONTROLS SATAN.

God Controls the ability to repent
God Controls the ability to believe
God Controls the amount of faith you have
God Controls EVERY ATOM IN ALL EXISTANCE- And that includes YOUR MIND.

Do you not see that Satan is what STRENGTHENS US? For without ADVERSITY we would not GROW in Him !

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13). See? To HUMBLE US !

God Hardens who He will
God Softens who He will
God Gives a STRONG DELUSION (LIE) to whom He will!

My God is TOTALLY IN CONTROL - We must grow up enough in the Lord to accept His all deeds (results/reasons) as RIGHTEOUS

1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

There is no "context" for the verses I posted - It's abundantly clear what it says, there is no way out of it and there is NO CONTRADICTION - it is simply a matter of Spiritual Maturity to accept that God uses Evil for His RIGHTEOUS purposes :

>>These Verses Here<<

There is no STRUGGLE between Good and Evil - Its there to TRAIN US UP - To conform us into the Image of Christ.

God rules all - Every knee WILL BOW - Every Tongue WILL CONFESS (by the Holy Spirit). God will conquer and rule ALL REBELLION ! He will BURN IT OUT IN THE REFINERS FIRE. :clap:

GodsWatchman · Jul 14, 2004

debiwebi said:
I have already answered this post and you are on the verge of spamming......
Post 22 I know you can see my posts GodsWatchman that is why you posted that to begin with, go back and answer the post that I made First......

Answer? Answer what? I see no QUESTION directed at me. I posted verses - you posted your opinion. Would you like me to disect your opinion and give back my thoughts on each sentence?

How about instead - you take EACH VERSE and show me how it doesn't mean WHAT IT SAYS? Hmm? Perhaps you can teach me the correct CONTEXT for these things? I mearly pasted verses - Its amazing the amount of personal opinion and commentary that can generate. But then again , isn't the Word of God doing precisly as He said He would?

Matthew 10:34-35 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Der Alte · Jul 14, 2004

GodsWatchman said:
Excuse me ? Where did I state ANYTHING AT ALL? I mearly pasted verses in - the rest is all presumptuous.

You merely posted several, carefully selected, verses out-of-context to support your presuppositions, which you state in this post.

Do you not understand that Satan is a TOOL of God - That he was CREATED to be the tool? That God is in TOTAL CONTROL OF ALL THINGS? Including SATAN? Watch Paul USE Satan as a tool himself:

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Show me the scripture that STATES Satan was created by God as a tool? All I see is another verse out-of-context to support your false doctrine. And I don't mean a piece of this verse and a piece of that verse.

BTW - Note that destruction = salvation

BTW this is a false presumption from the very depths of hades.

God doesn't make MISTAKES - He created Satan explicitly for the reason He uses him for : EVIL / CALAMITY / ADVERSITY / DARKNESS

I agree God does not make mistakes but the rest is more blasphemous teaching not supported by scripture.

And its no "supprise" when Satan does a thing - God CONTROLS SATAN.

False blasphemous teaching.

God Controls the ability to repent
God Controls the ability to believe
God Controls the amount of faith you have
God Controls EVERY ATOM IN ALL EXISTANCE- And that includes YOUR MIND.

False, false, false, and you might be a mindless zombie but but I'm not.

Do you not see that Satan is what STRENGTHENS US? For without ADVERSITY we would not GROW in Him !

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13). See? To HUMBLE US !

Is Satan's name "experience" now?

God Hardens who He will
God Softens who He will
God Gives a STRONG DELUSION (LIE) to whom He will!

Context, context, context, a concept you do not understand.

My God is TOTALLY IN CONTROL - We must grow up enough in the Lord to accept His all deeds (results/reasons) as RIGHTEOUS

My God is totally in control but He did not create mindless zombies. You might want to add Jeremiah 13:1-14 to your handful of proof texts. What did God decree and what happened? Blows your presuppositions clean out of the water.

There is no "context" for the verses I posted - It's abundantly clear what it says, there is no way out of it and there is NO CONTRADICTION - it is simply a matter of Spiritual Maturity to accept that God uses Evil for His RIGHTEOUS purposes :

There is a context for every verse, every word, in the Bible and anyone who does not understand that is totally lost. There is not one single word in the scripture that occurs in a vacuum or was not put there for a specific purpose as I showed from Isa 45.

False doctrines want to use that to show that God created evil, the context is NOT creation per se but God promising to give Cyrus victory. I notice you ignored my post on that point. Closing your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears, and shrieking "God will save everyone." will not make the truth go away.

There is no STRUGGLE between Good and Evil - Its there to TRAIN US UP - To conform us into the Image of Christ.

Presumption, assumption, and presupposition.

God rules all - Every knee WILL BOW - Every Tongue WILL CONFESS (by the Holy Spirit). God will conquer and rule ALL REBELLION !

That is right God WILL conquer rebellion and force those unwilling rebellious blasphemers to their knees, under the feet of Jesus, just as the scripture say. The verses you don't read.

He will BURN IT OUT IN THE REFINERS FIRE.

And this scripture, which you are totally ignoring the context, refers ONLY to those who belong to Christ NOT all of mankind but you cannot see that.

Serapha · Jul 15, 2004

saltoearth said:
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Hi there!

That passage is a Hebrew parallelism....

I form light...
I create darkness...

(opposites)

I make peace
I create evil...

To be in opposition... the correct rendering would need to be (as Ben Johnson said...)

From Blueletterbible.com: Ra' --- "distress, adversity, calamity."

the opposite of peace is distress or calamity... not evil.

~serapha~

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