Would it be proper (for you who are still under the law of the tithe) for me to deduct the amount I would give to, say, a needy family from the amount of my tithe check I give to the church? Or must I give it to the church?
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Do you tithe?
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Actually, the priests did tithe -- to Abraham.
Hebrews 7
9 A person might even say that Levi [the father of the priestly tribe] himself, who received tithes (the tenth), paid tithes through Abraham,
10 For he was still in the loins of his forefather [Abraham] when Melchizedek met him [Abraham].
As Abraham tithed not under law but under grace to Melchizidek, the pre-incarnate Jesus, today, we do likewise not under law but under grace also to Jesus.
And when we tithe to Jesus, we proclaim that He lives.
8Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood] tithes are received by men who are subject to death; while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives [perpetually].
Abraham tithed to the Melchizidek order. Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchizidek. So we tithe as Abraham did, not under the Levites order but under the Melchizedek order.
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Sorry, Andrew, but this analogy doesn't hold up.Andrew said:
Abraham tithed from the spoils of war, and he also did not tithe with money. Unless you want to spiritualize this whole situation, you can't use it for support of a modern day tithe.
Furthermore, I think we need to evaluate the context and purpose of the book of Hebrews. My contention is that it was directed to the name of the book: the Hebrews. These were people who were currently under the tithe (all three). The temple was still present.
Hebrews 1
1 God, after He (1) spoke long ago to the fathers in (2) the prophets in many portions and (3) in many ways,
2 (4) in these last days (5) has spoken to us in (6) His Son, whom He appointed (7) heir of all things, (8) through whom also He made the (9) world.
The Scripture above sets up the very thing I contend. The 'us' are the offspring of the 'fathers'. Therefore, we need to let this book stand as far as who the audience is.
Today, the Temple is no more, the Levitical priesthood are no more. Thus, the tithe is no more.
Abraham as recorded in Scripture tithed once. He tithed after having won a large victory. This wasn't a daily occurence, nor monthly, nor yearly.
As I have stated before, and will state again. The tithe, as it is purported today, has no Scriptural basis or relevancy.
I have opened up the topic for debate in the Debate Invitation area if anyone here or elsewhere would like to take me up on it.
m.d.
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muffler dragon said:
Isnt that faulty reasoning? If Abraham had tithed with money, you'd still argue that the analogy doesnt line up becos Abraham tithed Shekels and not US dollars.
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As you might note, I have added to my previous post. I had to take a hiatus while I drove to work.Andrew said:
Your statement above is an unfair assumption.
I have posted enough information on this thread and others regarding the tithe (all three in fact) are irrelevant in this day and age.
One other problem with the Abraham analogy is the fact that money and tithe only appear once in Scripture.
Deuteronomy 14
22 "You (11) shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.
23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, (12) at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may (13) learn to fear the LORD your God always.
24 "If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses (14) to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,
25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.
26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and (15) there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.
27 "Also you shall not neglect (16) the Levite who is in your town, (17) for he has no portion or inheritance among you.
28 "(18) At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.
29 "The Levite, (19) because he has no portion or inheritance among you, and (20) the alien, the orphan and the widow who are in your town, shall come and (21) eat and be satisfied, in order that (22) the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.
The bolded portion is the only time that tithe and money are incorporated in Scripture, and as one might see it is in an exchange. But the following verse is even more telling. When was the last time your minister/reverend/pastor/bishop/whatever encouraged you in this type of manner? I would say that I'm 99.9% sure that it never has happened and never will.
How about we look at the whole picture, because for you to rely on Abraham and Hebrews alone is a pretty weak foundation?
All I am trying to show you is that you are more than welcome to follow the tithe. Go for it all that you want; however, understand that it has nothing to do with obedience to the will of G-d. It is strictly under your own compulsion.
m.d.
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Would you say 2 witnesses is weak?
One of God's principle is this: When the root is holy, the batch is holy. Give God the 10% (whether its your time or money) and He sanctifies the rest.
We see this principle of the tithe even in the body. Give God your tongue, and he has your body. When your tongue is in his hands, his blesses the rest of your body.
Tithe the first hour of your day to God, and you find that the rest of the day is blessed and a breeze.
Ditto with your salary. Can you say that it is not God's will that I prosper and be in health?
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You, obviously, have not read anything that I have written. There is an abundance of it on this thread and in the CF in general.Andrew said:
Why don't you go ahead and venture into the actual debate with me and we'll sit it all out on the table?
If you choose not to, then I will deem this issue done and you just wanting to stick with your opinion.
I find it interesting how you never address what I say, you just have to add something more to it. Now, you're asserting that I have problems with prosperity and health. I've picked the one topic and stayed with it. Why don't you do the same and come to the debate?
I've laid out the guidelines. You can tell me if you would like something changed and we can discuss it.
Other than that, I consider this issue done, because you are relying strictly on Abraham and Hebrews. Those two have the least to do with the tithe in regards to history. I have also stated that I have no problem with offerings, but yet, this apparently isn't satisfactory with you. Therefore, I am presuming that you believe the tithe is a commandment from G-d and thus I am walking in disobedience by not doing so. If this is the case, then you are a prime candidate for stepping up to the plate and challenging me in the debate. We'll then let the audience decide who is correct.
Are you up for it or would you just rather drop it?
m.d.
p.s. I don't need to tithe a portion of my day or my salary to G-d. He's got it all. I just try to be obedient to what He would have me do with it.
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New_Wineskin
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Andrew said:
As that passage says , "A person *might* say that" we as thenew priesthood have already paid our tithes through Abraham . The author of Hebrews was saying that the tithe can be considered paid . Since Abraham did not tithe due to obeying an ancient writing as you say , then bringing that very fact up to say that *I* must tithe ( not saying that you are but others do ) is contradictory because they are using a writing to force me to obey where Abraham had none . It is also not recorded that Abraham performed this action by any law nor that he did so on a routine basis . One more item ... he gave the protion directly to the high priest which is not proponents preach .
As the passage that you gave said ... *I* ( I don't know who you include in the "we" ) am considered to have already paid the tithe through Abraham .Andrew said:
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New_Wineskin
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If one desired to go by the Scriptures ( aka the Law ) , a church is not a proper recipient of the tithe . Levites , yourself and family , poor , and orphanned are the only ones that I remember . But , I am not that well versed on the Law . I know that a church is not mentioned in the passages defining the tithe . Oh ... make sure that you pay in food if you do pay your "tithe" to a church . Mint ,dill , and cummin are preferred by one passage that I hear a lot .Jim B said:
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New_Wineskin
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I would say that the analogy doesn't hold up because there is no command in the Scriptures that states that anyone should tithe simply because Abraham did that one time . Abraham did other things as well that none are proposing that all should do . Some people want all to tithe because of Abraham's example but when going into detail about that same example to show that it is absurd , they call one's point absurd instead of getting that the method of the point is the same as the one being refuted .muffler dragon said:
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JimB
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Abraham only tithed once, that we know of to Melchizek. And just because it predates the Law doesnt mean a thing circumcision predates the Law, too. And, anyhow, it was, like circumcision, incorporated into the Law when the Law was given.
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another faulty logic. So if someone in the Bible did something once, then it means its not to be done again???
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another faulty logic. same type of argument as Abraham did not tithe US dollars so we don't have to tithe.
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Father Rick
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Reading through this, it looks like several of you guys are taking one or two verses on tithes and not actually studying out the totality of teaching on tithing. Hopefully I can help a little here.
I studied under a Chassidic Rabbi... if you EVER have an question about any portion of the Old Testament, ask a Chassidic Rabbi.... not only can they tell you what it says, but many know the scriptures so well that if a straight pin is inserted through the pages of a scroll, if they know which letter it goes through on the first page, they can tell you every letter on every page it goes through....
First, tithing is not considered part of the 'Law' in that it was pre-existent to the Law. (Abraham and Melchizidek) Therefore all arguments that we are not 'under the Law' are moot.
Second, the major passage of teaching on what to do with that tithe is found in Deuteronomy 14:22-28. Someone listed this earlier. Notice in that passage, that the tithe was only given once every three years. For 2 out of 3 years, the tithe was set aside and then used to pay one's way to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feasts of Israel that every man had to attend three times a year. When you got to Jerusalem, you used the tithe to buy whatever food and drink you wanted to celebrate the Feasts (kind of like throwing a party in God's honor). For these 2 years, you were also required to make sure the poor and the Levite had been taken care of as well. In the third year, you had to pay your own way to Jerusalem and the tithe was put in the storehouse (managed by the Levites) to take care of the poor. This is the storehouse referred to in Malachi-- it had nothing to do with church in any way.
In addition to the tithe, each person paid a temple tax to care for the upkeep of the temple. This is in addition to various offerings. Offerings were of grain, bulls, etc, of which a portion were offered to God and the rest were kept by the priest and Levites to eat/live off of.
After the temple was destroyed, the rabbis tried to figure out what was the best way to keep the tithe since the years were messed up as to which year was 'the year of the tithe' and there were no longer storehouses to put it in. The solution they came up with-- which is still kept by some orthodox Jews today-- is this: The tithe is divided into thirds. One third goes to pay for trips to Jerusalem for the Feasts. One third goes to the poor and needy. One third goes to the Levites (yes there are still Levites today in Israel working to rebuild the temple).
In the New Testament, Jesus commended the Pharisees for paying tithes-- in other words Jesus told them it was right to do so-- even though He rebuked them for forgetting the 'weightier matter of the Law' such as love, etc. Jesus also said they should not stop paying tithes, but should add love to what they were doing.
So to sum all this up...
Should we pay tithes today? Tithing exists outside the Law and Jesus told the Pharisees they should continue to pay tithes, so I would say, 'Yes.'
Jim B. --Would it be right to take part of your tithes to give to the poor?-- that is what the storehouse Malachi was talking about was all about, so yes it would actually be the correct way to pay tithes.
I studied under a Chassidic Rabbi... if you EVER have an question about any portion of the Old Testament, ask a Chassidic Rabbi.... not only can they tell you what it says, but many know the scriptures so well that if a straight pin is inserted through the pages of a scroll, if they know which letter it goes through on the first page, they can tell you every letter on every page it goes through....
First, tithing is not considered part of the 'Law' in that it was pre-existent to the Law. (Abraham and Melchizidek) Therefore all arguments that we are not 'under the Law' are moot.
Second, the major passage of teaching on what to do with that tithe is found in Deuteronomy 14:22-28. Someone listed this earlier. Notice in that passage, that the tithe was only given once every three years. For 2 out of 3 years, the tithe was set aside and then used to pay one's way to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feasts of Israel that every man had to attend three times a year. When you got to Jerusalem, you used the tithe to buy whatever food and drink you wanted to celebrate the Feasts (kind of like throwing a party in God's honor). For these 2 years, you were also required to make sure the poor and the Levite had been taken care of as well. In the third year, you had to pay your own way to Jerusalem and the tithe was put in the storehouse (managed by the Levites) to take care of the poor. This is the storehouse referred to in Malachi-- it had nothing to do with church in any way.
In addition to the tithe, each person paid a temple tax to care for the upkeep of the temple. This is in addition to various offerings. Offerings were of grain, bulls, etc, of which a portion were offered to God and the rest were kept by the priest and Levites to eat/live off of.
After the temple was destroyed, the rabbis tried to figure out what was the best way to keep the tithe since the years were messed up as to which year was 'the year of the tithe' and there were no longer storehouses to put it in. The solution they came up with-- which is still kept by some orthodox Jews today-- is this: The tithe is divided into thirds. One third goes to pay for trips to Jerusalem for the Feasts. One third goes to the poor and needy. One third goes to the Levites (yes there are still Levites today in Israel working to rebuild the temple).
In the New Testament, Jesus commended the Pharisees for paying tithes-- in other words Jesus told them it was right to do so-- even though He rebuked them for forgetting the 'weightier matter of the Law' such as love, etc. Jesus also said they should not stop paying tithes, but should add love to what they were doing.
So to sum all this up...
Should we pay tithes today? Tithing exists outside the Law and Jesus told the Pharisees they should continue to pay tithes, so I would say, 'Yes.'
Jim B. --Would it be right to take part of your tithes to give to the poor?-- that is what the storehouse Malachi was talking about was all about, so yes it would actually be the correct way to pay tithes.
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Father Rick,
Good post.
Just to add: We are splitting hairs and going into the nitty gritty specifics eg: 2 years, out of 3 years, grain or spoils and not US dollars, nett or gross.
In short, many of us are saying becos it was done this way and for this purpose, therefore it shld be done this way and or this purpose, otherwise it shouldnt be done or its redundant, blah blah blah.
We forget the whole spirit of tithing, which is worship unto a good God, acknowledging that He is the source of all our blessings and provision. All that we are blessed with comes from Him, and he's only asking for 10%, yet we are so nitty gritty and calculative abt it. Should I tithe on the gross or nett?
When we get the revelation of the goodness of God, and really believe He is the source of our blessings, tithing is no more a question.
The truth is, those who dont tithe simply can't part with THEIR money. And they can't stand it that others tithe becos they feel guilty abt it.
Good post.
Just to add: We are splitting hairs and going into the nitty gritty specifics eg: 2 years, out of 3 years, grain or spoils and not US dollars, nett or gross.
In short, many of us are saying becos it was done this way and for this purpose, therefore it shld be done this way and or this purpose, otherwise it shouldnt be done or its redundant, blah blah blah.
We forget the whole spirit of tithing, which is worship unto a good God, acknowledging that He is the source of all our blessings and provision. All that we are blessed with comes from Him, and he's only asking for 10%, yet we are so nitty gritty and calculative abt it. Should I tithe on the gross or nett?
When we get the revelation of the goodness of God, and really believe He is the source of our blessings, tithing is no more a question.
The truth is, those who dont tithe simply can't part with THEIR money. And they can't stand it that others tithe becos they feel guilty abt it.
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Have you also not read anything that I have written in the past as well as the other people who have posted. The majority of us have posted numerous Scriptures (IN CONTEXT) to show support for our position. As I might note in your post above, you posted no Scripture, you simply hinted at it.Father Rick said:
What is done in most synagogues today? An offering box.
Most synagogues do not have a tithe. And one of the papers I can send to people, if they so desire, is written by a Jew. He doesn't believe the tithe is relevant today.
I know what the tithe in Deuteronomy 14 was regarding. If you had read my post, you would see that I put it there, because that is the only time the tithe and money are used in the same context.
I just got done driving so I figured I would go through your entire post and really give you an adequate answer to your thoughts.
1) I have studied the totality of the tithe in Scripture for close to 5 years now. The first two years were spent defending the position of the tithe in the church. The last three have been in refuting my former position. I know where tithe is written in the Word. I understand the context. I have formed my opinion from this research. This is not something that is puppeted from a pulpit. Therefore, I resent your remark and if you had read my posts regarding this issue, you would see that I have put a great deal of time and effort into this. I have also spent a tremendous amount of time elsewhere within this same forum. I can provide you with links if you desire.
2) Pre-law and Law mentioning of the tithe can be mentioned as two distinct areas. But neither one is relevant to how the tithe is preached today in churches. Do you agree or disagree?
3) You state:
Therefore, I should assume that you agree with my statement above that most shuls/synagogues simply have an offering box.
4) You state:
As mentioned before, Abraham tithed from spoils of war. He did not tithe money. Jacob also tithed to G-d once, but it was upon conditions he set up. Hence the statement: "if you will..., then I will..."
The very tithe that the Pharisees were paying was not the same tithe as what Abraham or Jacob paid. The tithe that was part of the Law is what the Pharisees were commended to continue doing. And why did Y'shua commend them continue to keep doing so? Because the Temple was still standing. Because the Levitical priesthood still needed the provision.
Father Rick:
Those who are of the tribe of Levi, do they still operate under the restrictions placed on them as priests? Are they still not allowed to own property or raise livestock and produce? This should speak volumes about the irrelevancy of the tithe today, but once again, I'll probably be ignored.
m.d.
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I will interpret this statement as:Andrew said:I think I will let the poll speak for itself.
I don't know how to defend my position; therefore, no, I won't debate it.
By the way, if you haven't noticed, this is the spirit-filled pentecostal/charismatic forum. The majority (at least 51%) of the people hear probably agree with tithing, because that is what is taught. SFP/C is where most WOF, prosperity, and tithe teaching comes from. What would you expect on the poll?
That's why I said we should go elsewhere, debate it, and see how it stands. But since you have decided not to, I guess I don't have to worry about it.
m.d.
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Where do you keep drawing this conclusion that we are going to discuss US currency in this issue? And how many times do you need to be told (and shown in Scripture) that the tithe was not money?Andrew said:
You're incorrigible.
m.d.
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Andrew said:
Show me one Scripture where tithing is considered worship. I'm not asking for giving, offerings or otherwise. I want you to show me where the tithing is worship. Let me help you out before you search: you won't find it.
Where in Scripture is G-d asking for 10% of your income? Where does he ask for a tithe in money?
The truth is, those who dont tithe simply can't part with THEIR money. And they can't stand it that others tithe becos they feel guilty abt it.
By the way, insults normally work best with proper spelling and grammar.
Talk about insulting people. You refuse to defend your beliefs in a debate, but yet you'll sit behind the wall and throw this kind of junk. It would have been simple enough had you just said, "I believe, because I believe." But no, you had to first say that I'm wrong without refuting my words. And then you proceed to say that I can't part with my money and I feel guilty about it.
You've got just enough nerve to incite emotion, but not enough to stand by your convictions.
All respect is gone for you, Andrew. All respect.
I wish you well as you absorb all that your leadership tells you. They've got a good parishioner in you. Willing to give your money, hand over fist, without ever questioning.
muffler dragon
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