Which laws do we obey?

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Trish1947

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For example, the Spirit may have lead you once to fast about a certain problem/issue. You obeyed and the problem was solved. But then you turn that into a law such that whenever there is a similar problem now, you believe you must fast in order to solve the problem.
I know exactly what you are saying, the example you gave about thinking that since the problem was solved by the Spirit leading you to fast, then you have another problem and since it worked before, now I must fast again to get the same result. Then it becomes legalism, adhereance to the letter, because if you did not consult God about the new problem, but came up with the answer that worked before, you may be wrong. Its not the obeying of this particular law that gave you the answer, but the seeking God on what to do about the matter, and following the Holy Spirits leading. On the second problem, the Holy Spirit might prompt you fast again, or do something totally different, or nothing, but trust Him. Thats the Spirits leading, and your willingness to be obediant to His promtings, He will make sure that you do not fall under the "bondage" (and thats what Paul called it,) to follow a written law as your answer. Its always from now on, to be the Spirits leading. God understands the dynamics of our problems more than we do, and what its going to take to get it resolved. Seeking His guidance, keeps you in relationship with him.

Example: When Jesus sent the Apostles out to cast out demons in His name, they thought, WOW, this is working, but then they ran across some that would not respond at all. They we're baffeled by this, but Jesus told them, this sort only comes out by prayer and fasting, they did not know that there we're demons that would be more rebellious than others, and it might take extra measures. They thought the same "formula" they had been using would produce the result they we're looking for.. It did not, so we should always consult God what to do each time, because it may take a different answer, that only God knows about.

Its being obediant to the Spirits Law. Which He sometimes reveals to you more information that you knew before, when to do it, how to apply it, for what reason, not just the deadness of the letter. Doing it just for the sake doing it because you think God demands it from you, is not where it is at. Every word God speaks has meaning, and the Spirit will show us. Just let the Spirit show you first. "If you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law."
 
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muffler dragon

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All I have to say about this thread is:

I hope that this topic stays civil as it can very well go into a ticking time bomb if not given the highest regard of respect and earnest understanding as possible.

Many different people and groups will have different feelings towards this thread. So, I simply wish you all well in your discussions.

m.d.
 
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Andrew

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yes Trish1947, agree. :)

I hope that this topic stays civil as it can very well go into a ticking time bomb if not given the highest regard of respect and earnest understanding as possible.

huh? Is this topic so sensitive here? So far everyone here is pretty much in agreement. It will probably 'explode' if it was posted in the MJ/Orthodox section though, becos they are still very much OT.
 
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muffler dragon

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Andrew said:
yes Trish1947, agree. :)



huh? Is this topic so sensitive here? So far everyone here is pretty much in agreement. It will probably 'explode' if it was posted in the MJ/Orthodox section though, becos they are still very much OT.
It's probably in agreement, because it is in here.

But yes, it is a sensitive topic when taken out of the confines of similar beliefs.

Take care,

m.d.
 
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Andry

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It has never been about obeying 'laws'. Not ever. So we missed the point. Nothing like Christians for missing the point.

In the Garden of Eden were two peculiar trees that we all know of:

1. The Tree of Life;
2. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

What was the very tree that God says, ‘you start messing with that tree and you are going to get into all kinds of difficulty' (my paraphrase) – it was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now why would God ever want people not to live by the principles of good and evil?

Because he wanted them to live by the principle of live and death.

Because if you live by the principles of good and evil and right and wrong, you have to live by rules and regulations, which would never fully complete and effectively impart to you what God is trying to get to you – if you live by the law of life and death you don’t need rules and regulations. You just need relationship.

The moment that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the criteria used in life to determine what to and what not to do was forever changed.

It’s the not concept of knowledge that’s the problem. It’s the concept of good and evil that’s the problem. Because you see, here’s the deal, God says you’ve got a choice:

• You either live life by the criteria of life and death, or;
• You can live life by the criteria of good and evil and right and wrong.

And one of them will destroy you.

So what do we spend most of our time trying to do in westernized Christianity? Teach people the difference between right and wrong, and good and evil.

You know as a human being, I know not what not to do if I want to stay alive. Nobody wrote any rules, there’s no rulebook that I can pick up that says, ‘Do not drink liquid mercury.’ Or, ‘Do not walk in front of a fast moving vehicle.’ There’s no rules that tell me that.

So built within my natural life, I am living by the laws of life and death. I know, that some things if I do them will kill me; and other things if I do them will bring life to me, but you see, the criteria by which we measure our life has to be one of life and death and not right and wrong, and good and evil. And most of the problems in the church has come, because our doctrine has been based on right and wrong and good and evil. ‘Is this right, is this wrong, is this good, is this evil.’

Rather than saying, ‘Does this have life in it, does this have death in it.’ Notice something, Jesus never said, ‘I’ve come to tell you the difference between right and wrong.’ He said, ‘I’ve come that you might have life.’ In him was life, it was all about life. He was trying to teach them how to discern and define life, which was why Jesus’ disciples could break the commandments, or the law of Moses would be more accurately, and Jesus said, ‘Hey, this ain’t bringing death.’ So it’s alright. (my paraphrase).

What should we be teaching our young people about life? Should we be teaching them about right and wrong or how to know the difference between life and death? Is it right to go to a disco, is it wrong to go to a disco? Those are the wrong questions. Are you going to find life there or are you going to find death there? Is it going to put life in you, or is it going to put death in you.

And one principle, will effectively help you to make the right choices in every area of your life. Now once you go to right and wrong you have to say, ‘Is it right to drink alcohol, or is it wrong to drink alcohol?’ Or, ‘Is it right to be in this relationship, or is it wrong to be in that relationship?’ Or, ‘Is it wrong to do this in business or is it right to do this in business?’

So like the law of Moses… if this happens you must do this, if that happens you must do that. If this happens you go outside the camp for seven days if you’re unclean you present yourself to the priest, if this happens you go outside of the camp for three days, and then present yourself to the priest. If you have a spot and it’s white in the middle you do this, and if it’s red around it you do that.

So it’s like for every little thing, you know, don’t eat this meat don’t eat that meat, don’t eat this bird don’t eat that bird… it’s rules and regulations because they’ve come under a system of right and wrong and good and evil, and if you don’t cover all the bases, then all that happens at the end of the day is death anyway.

And, as Andrew pointed out, they've come to 613 laws which no one could keep anyways....so what happens? It brought death.

But that was never God’s plan. God’s plan was, 'listen, if you have right relationship with the Father, you will know the heartbeat of life, and the heartbeat of death. And when you know that, you have the principle by which to live life.' (my paraphrase). It’s all very simple.

The reason God gave Adam and Eve access to the Tree of Life and eat as much as you like from that, but do not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, because in the day you eat of it, you shall surely die. Or in another words, every time we live our life by a criteria of right and wrong and good and evil, we surely die. Just the same.

Therefore every time we operate by the criteria of right and wrong, good and evil, even if we are right, we still bring death. How many of you ever had the experience in life, that you’ve done the right thing, and it still brought death? Because the issue is not “doing the right thing.”

So we have seminars and things, you know, ‘Come on men, you’ve got to be men of integrity, you must do the right thing.’ No you mustn’t. You’ll do the right thing, and you’ll still come to death. We need to teach people you need to ‘do the life thing’, not the right thing, you need to do the life thing.

Now the issue is, is a lot easier for us to get our heads around the right and wrong thing because somebody can stand around and say, ‘This is right. That is wrong. This is good, this is evil.’

It’s a little bit more difficult to get your head around the ‘life thing’. Because that’s a heart thing. It’s not laws written on tablets of stone. It’s laws written on your heart.

The Ten Commandments have got nothing to do with right and wrong. It doesn’t say you will not commit adultery because adultery’s wrong. It is wrong, but that’s not why it says it. It says if you commit adultery you will die. If you don’t, you’ll live. It’s a life and death issue.

Why does it say “Don’t steal”? Not because it’s wrong to steal, but if you start stealing, what happens is death will come into your life. So the Ten Commandments have never been in the context of right and wrong - it's always been in the context of life and death.

Why should you have no other god’s besides me (God)? Is it because it’s wrong? Or because it will bring death? So these basic principles that even God has given us in the commandments are to do with life and death and not right and wrong and good and evil. And so the criteria by which we grasp them is very, very important. If we operate by the wrong criteria, right and wrong, good and evil, rather than life and death, even if we are right, we still bring death.

Isn't it interesting that many Christians 'blame' Adam and Eve for eating of the wrong fruit, ie. the fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, instead of from the Tree of Life. But when we live our own lives by a criteria of right and wrong instead of the criteria of life and death, guess which tree we eat of? And for most of us, that's daily.

So we need to start understanding Scripture from a perspective and criteria of the principles of life and death, and not right and wrong.
 
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Andrew

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andry,

read most of your post and agree about the part where it says its not about right or wrong but life or no life!

that's exactly what my pastor preaches in our church regarding grace and law.

so its not is getting a tattoo or drinking a glass of beer right or wrong, but is there life/a peace or death in your spirit.
 
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Jim B

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andry said:
It has never been about obeying 'laws'. Not ever. So we missed the point. Nothing like Christians for missing the point.

*****

So we need to start understanding Scripture from a perspective and criteria of the principles of life and death, and not right and wrong.
This is a very creatively worked-out theology, A, and I think that’s the problem with it. It's too creative. Despite the length of your explanation, I don’t get it. (Of course, I could have missed something :scratch: ).

The Law IS about right/wrong, obedience/disobedience, compliance/defiance. It IS as simple as that. Here is just a couple of pages of scriptures in just in the four books of the Law that have the word “obey” in them. Obedience, to those under the law, fostered life; disobedience brought death – “If you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. The Offer of Life or Death. Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach” (Deut. 30.10-11).

Here are some of the scriptures in the Books of the Law that mention the word “obey” as a condition of the Law.

Exodus 12:24
"OBEY these instructions as a lasting ordinance for you and your descendants.

Exodus 19:5
Now if you OBEY me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,

Exodus 24:7
Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read it to the people. They responded, "We will do everything the LORD has said; we will OBEY."

Exodus 34:11
OBEY what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

Leviticus 18:4
You must OBEY my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 18:5
Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who OBEYS them will live by them. I am the LORD.

Leviticus 25:18
" 'Follow my decrees and be careful to OBEY my laws, and you will live safely in the land.

Leviticus 26:3
" 'If you follow my decrees and are careful to OBEY my commands,

Numbers 14:41
But Moses said, "Why are you DISBOEYING the LORD's command? This will not succeed!

Numbers 15:39
You will have these tassels to look at and so you will remember all the commands of the LORD , that you may OBEY them and not prostitute yourselves by going after the lusts of your own hearts and eyes.

Numbers 15:40
Then you will remember to OBEY all my commands and will be consecrated to your God.

Numbers 27:14
for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you DISOBEYED my command to honor me as holy before their eyes." (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Numbers 27:20
Give him some of your authority so the whole Israelite community will OBEY him.

Deuteronomy 4:30
When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and OBEY him.

Deuteronomy 5:27
Go near and listen to all that the LORD our God says. Then tell us whatever the LORD our God tells you. We will listen and OBEY."

Deuteronomy 6:3
Hear, O Israel, and be careful to OBEY so that it may go well with you and that you may increase greatly in a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD , the God of your fathers, promised you.

Deuteronomy 6:24
The LORD commanded us to OBEY all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today.

Deuteronomy 6:25
And if we are careful to OBEY all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."​

\o/
 
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Suffolk Sean

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Here is a nice fusion of the issue of life and death, good and evil:

Deut 30:15-19

15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Intresting point is that the speaker (Moses) implores the listeners to chose Life
 
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Andry

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Jim B said:
This is a very creatively worked-out theology, A, and I think that’s the problem with it. It's too creative. Despite the length of your explanation, I don’t get it. (Of course, I could have missed something :scratch: ).

The Law IS about right/wrong, obedience/disobedience, compliance/defiance. It IS as simple as that. Here is just a couple of pages of scriptures in just in the four books of the Law that have the word “obey” in them. Obedience, to those under the law, fostered life; disobedience brought death – “If you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. The Offer of Life or Death. Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach” (Deut. 30.10-11).

\o/


Thanks JimB.

Sorry for the prolix post. Not to make excuses...but I wrote that late last night - things always seem to look clearer in the morning somehow.

Would it be fair to say that God's original (or would the more accurate word be 'preferred'?) intent for mankind was that we ate of the Tree of Life? But we obviously didn't do that in the Garden did we?

My quote, which perhaps you missed reading, "The moment that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the criteria used in life to determine what to and what not to do was forever changed."

And thus the "Law", which, correctly so, was introduced and had to be obeyed. To which your quotes from the Books of the Law are obviously valid and correct - if we were still living today in those times. Fast forward to Jesus' ministry on the earth, his death and resurrection. What happened to the Law?

Jesus came back to restore what was lost. From ritual to relationship. He taught us how to live life. Because it had always been about life. Our criteria on how we live life has to come back to being based on the principles of life and death, and not good and evil, right and wrong. It is as simple as that.

Is smoking marijuana right or wrong? That's the wrong question because it's the wrong criteria. It should be, does it bring life, or does it bring death? For some it brings death, for others, it brings life. So it may be ok for some, but not ok for others. And this takes the judgment out of us if we use the criteria of life and death.
 
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Jim B

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andry said:
Thanks JimB.

Sorry for the prolix post. Not to make excuses...but I wrote that late last night - things always seem to look clearer in the morning somehow.

Would it be fair to say that God's original (or would the more accurate word be 'preferred'?) intent for mankind was that we ate of the Tree of Life? But we obviously didn't do that in the Garden did we?

My quote, which perhaps you missed reading, "The moment that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil the criteria used in life to determine what to and what not to do was forever changed."

And thus the "Law", which, correctly so, was introduced and had to be obeyed. To which your quotes from the Books of the Law are obviously valid and correct - if we were still living today in those times. Fast forward to Jesus' ministry on the earth, his death and resurrection. What happened to the Law?

Jesus came back to restore what was lost. From ritual to relationship. He taught us how to live life. Because it had always been about life. Our criteria on how we live life has to come back to being based on the principles of life and death, and not good and evil, right and wrong. It is as simple as that.

Is smoking marijuana right or wrong? That's the wrong question because it's the wrong criteria. It should be, does it bring life, or does it bring death? For some it brings death, for others, it brings life. So it may be ok for some, but not ok for others. And this takes the judgment out of us if we use the criteria of life and death.
That is clearer, A, but not because you wrote it more clearly but because you almost have to draw me a picture. And we are closer than I previously thought.

I consider the tree "in the midst of the garden" a test to see if Adam & Eve would comply with or deny His express commandment and will – to obey or disobey Him. They chose to disobey and therefore (groan) etc.etc.

However, in defense of your position I remembered the word of Christ as to why He cam to earth – “that you might have life.”

\o/
 
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New_Wineskin

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Andrew said:
Good post Trish!

Now I want to ask this: Most of us know that we are no longer under law but grace. We dont follow the 613 laws to earn favour with God or righteousness. We obey the New Commandment of love and obey the Spirit's leading.

But is it possible to be still under a system of law and not grace?

For example, the Spirit may have lead you once to fast about a certain problem/issue. You obeyed and the problem was solved. But then you turn that into a law such that whenever there is a similar problem now, you believe you must fast in order to solve the problem.

Once you enjoyed reading the Bible in the early morning. But then it soon became a law. You feel that you have to read the Bible in the early morning everyday otherwise God will be disappointed.

In short, although we profess to live under the New Cov of grace, many a times we still live under law, flesh and works. which is basically self-human-efforts (not inspired by the Spirit) to please God. And what God once told us to do, we turn it into a routine, a law, thinking that by doing it again, we will get God to make things happen.

Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
I absolutely know what you are talking about . It seems that most groups that I hear about do this . The first charasmatic group that I was involved with was very law oriented . I used to dread going to the meetings because I knew that a new law ( law of the week ) was going to be thrown at us . Amazing .
 
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Andrew

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andry,

Would you say then that that's how the annointing within us leads or guides us? He doesnt go by laws but peace and life or the lack of it.

eg: You go to a friend's place for dinner and he gives you pork and a glass of beer. He's Chinese and its the Hungry Ghost Festival and the pork has been offered to his god. You wonder what you are supposed to do. Tell him forget it! or just eat?

Does the Spirit then, pull out one of the 613 laws from the Bible or one of the 20 rules from your church and plonk it into your head to guide you? Or does He lead you by life or death?

As you've said, we are to decide based on the Tree of Life (Grace/Spirit/Faith), not on the Tree of Knowledge or Good and Evil (Law/Works/Flesh).
 
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New_Wineskin

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Andrew said:
andry,

eg: You go to a friend's place for dinner and he gives you pork and a glass of beer. He's Chinese and its the Hungry Ghost Festival and the pork has been offered to his god. You wonder what you are supposed to do. Tell him forget it! or just eat?
Good example . Personally , I woudln't even ask the Lord about it and just eat . If the Lord told me something beforehand , that would be a different story . I would pass on the beer because I don't like the stuff .
 
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He put me back together

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I know we all believe here that the Holy Spirit will lead us and teach us all things, but I think we all here also believe that we can site the Scriptures on what he will, or perhaps will not, lead us to do...as a means of commucating with each other moreso than with him even, at times. He will not bring us another Gospel, or else we might as well throw the first Gospel away. After all, it is that Gospel which tells us of the Spirit--which is the Spirit, and it is the NT scripture which says the Spirit (which is the Word of Elohim, as Andrew correctly put in a previous forum) will teach us all things. But the New Testiment also brings about the truth that the ordinances of the Torah were a foreshadowing of the things to come, and the Jew's insistance of circumcision on the Gentiles who had recieved the Spirit was unjust. It is obvious to me, upon reading the Scriptures, that the abasadors of Elohim kept and ordered the morality of the Torah, but the letter, and the ordinances which forshadowed the coming of the Messiah, had been fulfilled.

Before the Messiah came, it was necessary to be maticulous with the ordinances as well as other things, out of the need of preservation. But from the malice of the priests the letter was forced in a fleshly manner, and decayed still. This is the malice that killed the prophets, and perverted the Sabbath as well as the Torah to the extent that we see being debated in the four Gospels.

But now the ordinances of the law, the sacrifices, the feasts, the rituals, are fulfilled, and we are delivered from our sin, which includes the malicious judgement of others in the letter, and not the Spirit. The Torah of Elohim was not the same Torah that the Pharisees forced in the time of Christ--they had perverted the Torah. But we are delivered from the letter--the Torah having been given to us, according to Paul, because of transgression. When the Spirit of Elohim enters us, doing what is right also enters us. But in doing what is right, we keep the Torah. I think the commands of the Torah that we keep are the codes of morality. Do I think we as Christians should keep the feasts, and the festivals? Certainly. But is it sinful for a Gentile made a true Jew to neglect them? Is it sinful for the uncircumcised believer to remain so? No.

Is it a good idea to plant crops in the way the Torah instructs? Sure. But is it sinful to grow a mixed garden, growing the same stuff every year, in your back yard? No. Is it sinful to shave the sides of your beard? No. But is it sinful to lie, to cheat, to steal, to murder, to pervert nature, to lie against your neighbor, to hate him, or to hate Elohim? Most certainly.

The Torah is composed of rituals and morality. The rituals may have been a foreshadowing of things to come, but the morality of the Torah is truth that will always stand. Still, is the letter more powerful, more true than the Spirit? Not at all, and we must judge all things. The Torah wasn't absolute, even--the Torah gave room for self defense and accidents--for judgement, and ambiguities (hey, what do you think the City of Refuge was for?). People are more condemning that Yahweh ever has been. So is it always wrong to kill? No, even the Torah says it isn't. Is it always right to take what isn't yours? If it is, I suppose the Allied Invasion was wrong when it commendered equipment. Is deception always wrong? If so, I suppose those rubber tanks they assembled were also sinful. Is telling nontruthes always wrong? Well, there's another forum for that one. Is breaking the law always sin, even when that law doesn't generally break the law of Elohim? If so, America is built on sin, and every man who suffers the results of a broken alarm clock is destined to sin by things that are beyond his control, unless God provides a miracle for him to get to work on time without speeding...

In short, a man filled with the Spirit will follow the morality of the Torah by nature, but we should not be maliciously maticulous with it as the Pharisees were (even though they didn't believe in the Torah, but rather their perversion of it). We should be righteous, and judge all things.
 
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Trish1947

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Something that happened to our family was very enlightening. My grandson had met a new boy in the neighborhood, I met the mother and father briefly and welcomed them. I decided to prepare dinner for them and fixed a very big Ham dinner. They came over, sat down to eat, ate everything that I had prepared, and we really enjoyed the evening. A few days later my grandson was "bored" so I said why dont you go see if Joel can come down to play, He said to me, he cant they have gone to 'TEMPLE"... Well in about 10 minutes, my mind was buzzing, oh, my gosh, I served these people ham.. But they ate it, but, they are Jews, they are Orthodox at that, I felt totally stupid. So I called her, and appologized all over the place. She said what do you have to appologize for? I explained it all to her, and she started to laugh, She said look we understand the law of God. But what would have been worse at that moment, "to insult you and your graciousness you have showed us, or, show our piety, over your hospitality. I was amazed.. They ate the meal in faith.. They had no consiousness of the eating that meal that day to be a sin. Everything that is not of faith is sin. They we're able to have faith that day that they had broken no law.
 
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riverpastor

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Jesus came to fulfill, not to destroy, the law.

In that He fulfilled it, all of the work to perform and complete it has been done.

Does this actually do away with it?

Or is it that we live by faith in Christ who fulfilled it all?

If I was crucified with Him and buried with Him and raised to newness of life in Him, then is it safe to say that by faith I fulfilled the law in Him???
 
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Suffolk Sean

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riverpastor said:
Jesus came to fulfill, not to destroy, the law.

In that He fulfilled it, all of the work to perform and complete it has been done.
I find it somewhat intresting that in keeping the Law, Jesus seemingly broke it many times in accordance with the letter. So in fact the letter of the law was not the issue, but the intent. So many times we see that intent is real measure:

Samual said that obediance was better than sacrifice 1Sam 15:22

Jesus spoke of intent in the passage Mark 2:23-28 when his disciples were gleaning and eating grain and he said David at the showbread which was unlawful for him to do..

Again Jesus Mt 12:11 and Lu 14:5 spoke about intent rather than letter
 
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muffler dragon

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Suffolk Sean said:
I find it somewhat intresting that in keeping the Law, Jesus seemingly broke it many times in accordance with the letter. So in fact the letter of the law was not the issue, but the intent. So many times we see that intent is real measure:

Samual said that obediance was better than sacrifice 1Sam 15:22

Jesus spoke of intent in the passage Mark 2:23-28 when his disciples were gleaning and eating grain and he said David at the showbread which was unlawful for him to do..

Again Jesus Mt 12:11 and Lu 14:5 spoke about intent rather than letter
Y'shua never broke anything regarding Torah. The only part that he brought issue with was the Halacha (Oral Torah). If Y'shua ever broke a mitzvah or tenet of the Torah, then he would be a false Messiah. Furthermore, when he is the embodiment of the Torah (as Logos means Written Word, and the Aramaic word means Torah/Tanakh (OT)) I find it hard to believe that he would contradict his very essence in any way, shape or form.

m.d.
 
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