How many dispensations are there?

Except Christ is heir to David's Throne, and so are you saying there is a rival to Jesus for the Throne of David?
Jeff the Finn

duster1az said:

Jesaiah writes: "What oath?"

The Abrahamic covenant records Jehovah's sovereign purpose in, through, and for Abraham. The covenant is unconditional in that no obligation is imposed on Abraham; he contributes nothing, but is the recipient of all that Jehovah proposes to do for him (Gen. 12:1-3; 13:14-17; 15:4-7; 17:1-8).

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The Bible clearly states that God's land covenant with Abraham has been fulfilled (cf. Joshua 21:43).

The Davidic covenant reveals the nature of the literal earthly kingdom (2 Sam. 7:12-17, Ps. 89:1-37). The literal nature of the covenant is both explicit and extended. Difficulty only comes about when some are determined to metamorphose a literal, earthly kingdom into some vague and totally imaginary spiritual idealism.

In Christ,
Tracey

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The Jews where expecting a earthly kingdom at the first Advent of Christ, but Christ told us that His kingdom was not of this world (cf. John 18:36). It isn't until Christ's Second Advent, when He comes to separate the sheep from the goats during His final judgment (Matthew 25:31-46), that we will enter into the eternal kingdom of Christ. We look forward to Christ's return to this earth not for a 1000 year reign but to reign with His saints for all eternity.


God Bless

Jesaiah

jeffthefinn said:

The promise made to Israel was fulfilled in Christ, that is the gist of the cursing of the fig trees they did not bear fruit. St Paul calls the Church the Israel of God, I do not know of another Israel.
Jeff the Finn

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verse please

duster1az said:

Jeffthefinn writes: "It doesn't offend me that you disagree with my study of the Bible from a dispensational point of view. I believe it must be studied in this way to avoid confusion and to have continuity.

jeffthefinn writes: "In the thread the Scofield Reference Bible in the Protestant, Reformed, and Evangelical Room there is my comment about at least some of what Scofield taught. Is that what you also believe that the Sermon on the Mount does not apply to the Church?"

I don't own a Scofield Bible, so I can't respond to what it states, but I believe the Sermon on the Mount is the expansion of the full meaning of the personal righteousness that is required in the literal kingdom. But, just because I believe the literal interpretation of the Sermon was addressed to Israel in anticipation of their earthly kingdom, it doesn't mean I believe the Church can't benefit from portions of it through a secondary application.

In Christ,
Tracey

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Here HERE.......... literal interpetation for avoiding confusion

agreed from the BRETHREN

Jesaiah said:

The Bible clearly states that God's land covenant with Abraham has been fulfilled (cf. Joshua 21:43).

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Joshua 21:43 And the Lord Gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt therein.

I like Challenges with scripture thanks

First the SECOND PROMISE

Gen 12:5 .........and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; anto the land of Canaan they came 6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. 7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said , unto thy seed will I give this land and there builded he an alter unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

This promise fulfilled in Joshau 21:43

The #1 Covenant

Gen 15:18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river , the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 and the HHittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga*****s, and the Jebusites.

This Covenant has not been fulfilled

Far West as the Nile ,Far east to the Ephrates, North and south according to where these tribes resided

Nice try

differences are important in contracts
can't say I'm Jordan and get his PAYCHECK since I play basketball

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

Joshua 21:43 And the Lord Gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it and dwelt therein.

I like Challenges with scripture thanks

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You're welcome.

First the SECOND PROMISE

Gen 12:5 .........and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; anto the land of Canaan they came 6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. 7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said , unto thy seed will I give this land and there builded he an alter unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

This promise fulfilled in Joshau 21:43

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So all here is just some? All the land God promised is only some? I would assume that "all" would refer to the entire land promise made unto Abraham. So how do you conclude that all is only some? The promises were fulfilled several times but never consumated. The land promises are consumated forever in the new heaven and the new earth (Heb. 11:39-4; Rev. 21:1-22:6).

The #1 Covenant

Gen 15:18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river , the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 and the HHittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga*****s, and the Jebusites.

This Covenant has not been fulfilled

Far West as the Nile ,Far east to the Ephrates, North and south according to where these tribes resided

Nice try

differences are important in contracts
can't say I'm Jordan and get his PAYCHECK since I play basketball

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Please leave the sarcasm at the door If you want to discuss Scripture in a polite manner than let's do so. But if it is going to boil down to cheap shots then for both our edification lets not continue this discussion.

With that said, if we use your approach in interpreting the Abrahamic land promises then we end up with not just two land covenants but four. God gives similar land promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:7; 13:15; 15:18; 17:8. So do we have one covenant in different passages with different summations or descriptions of the land (either more detailed or less) or do we have several different covenants that involve the same area of land but each covenant being different from the other?

God Bless

Jesaiah

The Gospel of the Kingdom is an early response to the Scofield dispensationalism, which for the most part I agree with.
Jeff the Finn

Jesaiah writes: "The Bible clearly states that God's land covenant with Abraham has been fulfilled (cf. Joshua 21:43)."

Seems I've heard this argument before, but you never responded to my answer. See below for previous post.

Jesaiah writes: "The Abrahamic land covenant was fulfilled. (cf. Joshua 21:43-45)"

In light of her unchangeable covenants, it's essential that Israel's dispossession of the land be recognized. In doing so we should understand that these dispossessions also involve regatherings. There were clear predictions of three dispersions and three regatherings. As of the present time Israel is now scattered in her third and final dispersion awaiting the last regathering.

Predicted dispersions: (1) Into Egypt (Gen. 15:13-16). The reurn of the nation to the land under the leadership of Moses and Joshua (Joshua 21:43-45) marks the end of the first dispersion. (2) The Captivities (Jer. 25:11-12). The bondage ended seventy years after the southern kingdom was taken captive, but still not all that were taken returned. The important fact is that a representation of the whole nation was reassembled in the land. Daniel learned from the Jerimiah passage when the time of bondage would be fulfilled (Dan. 9:1-2). (3) Present Dispersion (Neh. 1:8; Jer. 9:16, 18:15-17; Ezek. 12:14-15). The present dispersion exceeds the others in duration and in the manner in which Israel is now scattered among all nations. From the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. the scattering continues to this hour.

That Israel will yet be fully returned to her land is one of the Bible's greatest predictions (Deut. 30:1-3; Ezek. 37:21-28). It must be accepted in its literal form or be ignored completely. Too often the latter is done.

In Christ,
Tracey

Jesaiah said:

Please leave the sarcasm at the door If you want to discuss Scripture in a polite manner than let's do so. But if it is going to boil down to cheap shots then for both our edification lets not continue this discussion.

With that said, if we use your approach in interpreting the Abrahamic land promises then we end up with not just two land covenants but four. God gives similar land promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:7; 13:15; 15:18; 17:8. So do we have one covenant in different passages with different summations or descriptions of the land (either more detailed or less) or do we have several different covenants that involve the same area of land but each covenant being different from the other?

God Bless

Jesaiah

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Sorry if you did not like my basketball story ...... it was an illsatration hopefully I did not offend you not my purpose

please go to Gal 3:15-16,29

4 covenants I am not making this up

#1 gen 15:18 made a covenant
#2 Gen 17:6-8 vs 7 for an everlasting covenant
#3 Gen 17:9-14 vs10 this is my covenant
#4 Gen 22:17 no listing here but luke 1:68-74 vs72 his holy covenant

adding different promises that are contracted in writing [covenant]

#1 gen 15:18 Given land ...explain largeness of land
#2 gen 17:6-8 nations will come out of thee and kings
#3 gen 17:9-14 must be circumcised or cut off
#4 gen 22:17 possessing the gates of his enemies

#1,2,3 seed is plural

#4 seed is singular and refurs to THEE CHRIST AKA THE BODY
Law believer prayed 6:9-18
vs 13 lead us not into tempation
we as the body are told to James 1:2-3,13-14
vs. 14 forgive men their trespasses
We as the body..Jesus did it on the cross col 3:13

They haved soulish worship do to this

soulish is the 5 senses ....sight, touch, taste, hear, smell
ps 57:6 , exodus 4:30-31

And that why God had to dwell with them and even then they chose other God's since they wanted to see great work of powers.


we are told to worship a new worship in spirit
John 4:23-24
Eph 4:23 renewed spirit in your mind

2cor 5:7 For we walk by faith not by sight

jeffthefinn said:

Except Christ is heir to David's Throne, and so are you saying there is a rival to Jesus for the Throne of David?
Jeff the Finn

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No........... David rules on earthly jersalem while Christ and the bride rules in the new jersalem and jersalem as kings and priest Rev 1:6

duster1az said:

Jesaiah writes: "The Bible clearly states that God's land covenant with Abraham has been fulfilled (cf. Joshua 21:43)."

Seems I've heard this argument before, but you never responded to my answer. See below for previous post.

Jesaiah writes: "The Abrahamic land covenant was fulfilled. (cf. Joshua 21:43-45)"

In light of her unchangeable covenants, it's essential that Israel's dispossession of the land be recognized. In doing so we should understand that these dispossessions also involve regatherings. There were clear predictions of three dispersions and three regatherings. As of the present time Israel is now scattered in her third and final dispersion awaiting the last regathering.

Predicted dispersions: (1) Into Egypt (Gen. 15:13-16). The reurn of the nation to the land under the leadership of Moses and Joshua (Joshua 21:43-45) marks the end of the first dispersion. (2) The Captivities (Jer. 25:11-12). The bondage ended seventy years after the southern kingdom was taken captive, but still not all that were taken returned. The important fact is that a representation of the whole nation was reassembled in the land. Daniel learned from the Jerimiah passage when the time of bondage would be fulfilled (Dan. 9:1-2). (3) Present Dispersion (Neh. 1:8; Jer. 9:16, 18:15-17; Ezek. 12:14-15). The present dispersion exceeds the others in duration and in the manner in which Israel is now scattered among all nations. From the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. the scattering continues to this hour.

That Israel will yet be fully returned to her land is one of the Bible's greatest predictions (Deut. 30:1-3; Ezek. 37:21-28). It must be accepted in its literal form or be ignored completely. Too often the latter is done.

In Christ,
Tracey

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I apologize if this was overlooked.

As I said in an earlier post to another poster, the Abrahamic promises have been fulfilled before but not consumated. It will not be consumated until the eternal reign of Christ upon the New Earth in the New Jerusalem.

The Scriptures clearly show how Israel entered into Canaan Land upon fleeing Egypt and that the remnant of God returned to rebuild the temple and cities after their Babylonian exile. But I want to disagree with your third statement about the Present dispersion and the scriptures used by to support it.

Nehemiah 1:8--I believe that you are trying to use this as a reference to the fact that Israel's indwelling of the land is contingent upon their obedience to God. If this was your point then I agree. If it was to try and prove a future dispersion then I will disagree because it is clearly in reference to the Babylonian exile.

Jeremiah 9:16, 18:15-17--In Chapter 9:16 I do not see mention of a future dispersion. Rather I see Jeremiah condemning Israel for their disobedience which resulted in their Exile in Babylon from 597-536BC. Jeremiah himself ministered during 597-588 BC.

In Chapter 18:15-17 the same is there, Babylonian Exile.

Ezekiel 12:14-15 Ezekiel ministerd during the time of 592-570 BC. Again this too refers to Judah's exile in Babylon.

Deuteronomy 30:1-3 This is God's instruction to Israel in which he declares that if they are in exile and return unto Him and His commands then He will gather them back into their land. He even states the time of the circumcision of the heart which was fulfilled in Romans 2:29. Now you will say that Israel will return unto the land since they have been scattered since 70 AD. But my question is, have they obeyed God? No. They rejected Christ and so have been disobdient unto God and His Word. Therefore they are scattered among the earth. Dispensationalists say they will return during the Millenial Kingdom. But amillenialists aren't looking for a 1000 year millenial reign, but the Second Coming of Christ in judgment upon the world. So unless Jews believe upon Christ then they won't enter into the land again. The issues brought up in Romans 9-11 correspond to this discussion but right now I don't have the time to do so.

As for Ezekiel 37 I will have to discuss that later as I must go to Church.

God Bless

Jesaiah

As I said before I no longer hold to the dispensationalist view of eschatology and the Bible, for that matter. I am fairly new to the teachings of amillenialism and so I hope I have not misrepresented its teachings.

The promises of God to Israel in its majority had been filled and is recorded in the Old Testament, Christ is the fulfillment of many of the Old Testament promises for He is Israel, and there are promises that are to be fulfilled during the eternal reign of Christ upon in the New Heaven and the New Earth.

I do not look to a Secret Rapture, nor a literal 1000 year reign but rather I look to Christ's Second Advent in which He comes to Judge the World and at such time He will call His chosen people to enter into eternal rest.

A book that has been helping me in understanding amillenialism is "A Case for Amillenialsm: Understanding End Times" by Dr. Kim Riddlebarger. And another book I am looking at is "The Bible and the Future" by Anthony A. Hoekema .


God Bless

Jesaiah

Jesaiah said:

So unless Jews believe upon Christ then they won't enter into the land again. The issues brought up in Romans 9-11 correspond to this discussion but right now I don't have the time to do so.

As for Ezekiel 37 I will have to discuss that later as I must go to Church.

God Bless

Jesaiah

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please read Revelation seals in the first half of the great trib THEN THE BIG BOY'S the vials and trumpets AFTER THAT read rev 19:13-16

ONLY ONES LEFT ARE tribulational Believers then you add Ezekiel 37: 12 ....I will open your graves, and cause you to come out of your graves , and bring you into the land

Another Resurection of all the people of Dispensational of Law that believed thus the BEGINNING OF THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN
AND gOD GIVE THEM A NEW HEART THAT KNOWS ALL THE WRITING OF GOD AND SATAN [REV 20:2] IS BOUND DURING THIS TIME AND mARK 9:42-50 is also happening ...other verse go along with this

MATT 19:28 12 APOSTLES REWARD

I would love to see a dispensationalist show where their doctrine was before the tongue speaker in Scotland in 1830 was in Church history. Not one person believed anything close to what Darby and Scofield have fostered. They have gutted the Gospel, to the point where the Sermon on the Mount applies to some dream world in the future instead of their own lives. Scofield's system is forced onto the text and does not come from it.
Jeff the Finn

Jesaiah & jeffthefinn:

Guys I've enjoyed the conversations and feel I have somewhat of an understanding where you stand theologically. I don't agree with your positions, but I don't have to in order to fellowship with you in Christ. I hope the two of you feel the same. Though this thread is played out I'm sure we'll cross paths in a different thread.

In Christ,
Tracey

Jesaiah said:

I do not look to a Secret Rapture, nor a literal 1000 year reign but rather I look to Christ's Second Advent in which He comes to Judge the World and at such time He will call His chosen people to enter into eternal rest.

A book that has been helping me in understanding amillenialism is "A Case for Amillenialsm: Understanding End Times" by Dr. Kim Riddlebarger. And another book I am looking at is "The Bible and the Future" by Anthony A. Hoekema .


God Bless

Jesaiah

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I have read another book by Hoekema He is easy to read.

Like you I await the return of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to come in Judgment. Marantha

"And He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead..."

rnmomof7 said:

I have read another book by Hoekema He is easy to read.

Like you I await the return of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to come in Judgment. Marantha

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A couple of books I found helpful were Amillennialism Today, by William E. Cox and his study of dispensationalism. An Examination of Dispensationalism
Jeff the Finn