Initial Evidence?

afnospam · Jul 13, 2003

1 Corinthians 12:1-11, and verse 28
1Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[1] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Rather than tounges being universal, it would seem to me that Paul describes specifc gifts being given to each person, and that some may have the gift of tounges while others a different gift. Confirming that Jesus is Lord is the manifastation evidence of the Holy Spirt.

afnospam · Jul 13, 2003

Andrew said:
The basis for saying that tongues is the sign of the Spirit Baptism is simply the pattern found in Acts. To me, if that's the way it happened, then I'll just stick to the way it happened, as recorded in the Bible.

I mean, if there is nothing to stop me from receiving the way it was received in Acts, then why wld I want to settle for anything less. Furthermore, I'd prefer to just stick to the Bible 'benchmark' to 'play safe'.

That said, I struggled at the question for some time too until God showed me that that was the pattern. I'm not saying I'm right and know better, but just saying that it was a personal revelation to me.

It's a long story but I'll try to keep it short.

My burning question to God was "Yes, I believe in the Spirit baptism BUT IS TONGUES THE SIGN!?? Everyone's arguing abt this!"

The revelation came in Acts 10 & 11, where Peter explained to his critics what happened in the house of Cornelius.

Notice in 10:47 and 11:15 that Peter stressed that the Spirit had come upon the household of Cornelius "JUST AS IT HAD come on us AT THE BEGINNING". IOW the gentiles received the Holy Spirit the WAY the disciples had on Pentecost.

Peter himself, and the Jews who criticised him for entering the home of Cornelius, a gentile, had trouble believing that God wld save gentiles let alone baptise them with His Spirit.

So what proof did Peter have in his defence to offer his critics, to show that indeed Cornelius and his household were saved and baptised in the Spirit?

The only visible evidence was tongues! That's why Peter stressed to his critics that they received "JUST AS WE HAVE" ie in the same way with the same sign of tongues.

The clincher then, for me, was the following verse: "18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God."

So in the same way, I had no further objections but believed that tongues is the sign of the Spirit Baptism. "JUST AS WE HAVE IN THE BEGINNING" is the benchmark that should cause us all to have no further objections as to how and when one is Spirit baptised.

I hope you get the jist of what I'm trying to put across. It was not so much just the scriptures presented but how these verses jumped out at me and 'spoke' to me in answer to my question.

God bless.

Good post and thanks for sharing.

+

hal weeks · Jul 19, 2003

Quote (Personally, I don't believe in initial evidence. I can't see why the "evidence" can't be any of the other (1 Cor 12) gifts of the Spirit.)

Tongues seems to be the big "holdout."
I recommend telling God you want ALL He has for you and do not exclude tongues. I suspect it is such a powerful gift, especially in spiritual warfare, that Satan has caused this to be so contrversial.
I have seen both healing and deliverance when all I did was pray in tongue.
Post your questions with God also.

hal weeks · Jul 21, 2003

Speaking in tongues comes after you have already been born again and filled with the Holy Spirit.

It is part of what happens when the being filled becomes rivers of living water.

John 7:37-39

Templedweller · Apr 19, 2006

I have enjoyed reading the posts here.....And being as it is an older thread I really enjoy seeing what has been said in ones in the past.

I agree that it is a gift

That it has its place

That we ought to be looking for fruit in the life of a believer and not just for evidence that they speak in tounges

That it is a glorious spiritual gift and there are different purposes for it backed by Scripture and that one need not be Baptized in The Spirit to make it through the gates of Heaven...They need Jesus, acknowledgement of His blessed shed blood and his death and ressurection for salvation sake.

Though I don't think it wrong nor bad neither ungodly. How can a gift from GOD be bad for us???

Sincerely,
Templedweller

foadle · Apr 19, 2006

As best I can I will try to explain what I believe.

The baptism in the spirit is definately biblical. John the baptist talks about baptising with water but that the one who coems after him will baptise with fire. Christ himself said that if he did not leave them he could not send them the spirit that would be their guide.
Yes baptism in the spirit is biblical however I do disagree with the initial evidence of tongues. Not once does the bible ever mention Jesus speaking in tongues yet I am sure no one would argue he had the spirit. If speaking in tongues is so important then why is it never recorded that Jesus did? I am not saying he didn't but the bible actually doesn't say one way or the other.
Only once does the bible show people speaking in tongues after receiving the spirit and that was on pentecost. If it is so important why is this the only time it is mentioned as occuring straight after baptism in the spirit.
While the bible talks of Paul speaking in tongues it does not say that this occured directly after he was baptised in the spirit. Yet we know that this happened after his walk to Damascus was interupted.
No - I believe that if tongues was meant to be a sign of this there would be a lot more specific documentation of its occurance.
More importantly that are documented is loving God, loving people, baptism (both physical and in the spirit) and living a righteous life. On these there is much detail though little on signs.

Mark2010 · Apr 19, 2006

Quaffer said:
In my church, tongues is probably the most common, however, we also operate in all the others too.

I definitely need to come visit your church. It's obvious that God has given you a great deal of wisdom on many things.

Maharg · Apr 19, 2006

I believe that the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit at the moment of conversion. I base this belief on reading John's gospel, chapter 3.

I believe that when we believe in Jesus we are born again, and have a new life within us.

I believe that sometimes the Holy Spirit will come upon us in an especially powerful way, edifying us, healing us and giving us the power to live for God's glory. I don't understand how this relates to us already having the Holy Spirit within us - this belief for me has come from my experiences with God, when He has suddenly overwhelmed me with love.

Maharg

Hisgirl · Apr 19, 2006

I moved in prophecy, words of knowledge and healing before I spoke a word in tongues...and even then, it's only a word or two.

I only know four or five folks who spoke in tongues at the moment they were empowered with the Holy Spirit...filled, baptized, however you say it. Most others were given a prayer language sometime over the next days, weeks or years.

I believe the evidence is displaying God's power in some way.

Maharg, I was taught the difference is between being indwelt and being empowered. Yes, I felt God's love and had an intense desire to worship Him, but was also empowered to minister using His gifts, as was evidenced by their coming forth.

christianmomof3 · Apr 19, 2006

This is an interesting thread. I have been a Christian for 15 years and I have never heard anyone speak in tongues. I don't know anyone who has done that even. I do have a friend who met with a church that did tongue speaking in the past, but she felt that it was forced and fake for them. (I am not implying it is forced and fake for everyone - but it seems that it does happen - I have heard that from some other people too.)
Yes, the Bible does speak of tongue speaking, but Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:19 But in the church I would rather speak five words with my mind, that I might instruct others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
23 If therefore the whole church comes together in one place and all speak in tongues, and some unlearned in tongues or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are insane?
24 But if all prophesy and some unbeliever or unlearnde person enters, he is convicted by all, he is examined by all;
25 The secrets of his heart become manifest; and so falling on his face, he will worship God, declaring that indeed God is among you.
14:4 He who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but he who prophesies builds up the church.

Paul does go on to say not to forbid speaking in tongues, but it seems that he is saying that prophesying is a better way to build up the church.
Prophesying, as Paul speaks of it is not fortelling the future, but speaking for Christ and speaking forth Christ.

I have never spoken in tongues, but I am born again, I have Christ dwelling in my spirit and I experience His life in my spirit.

I am sure some people do speak in tongues even today, and I think it would be interesting to experience, but I think that saying it is necessary for salvation is not correct according to the Bible and it is legalistic.

Hisgirl · Apr 19, 2006

Hi Christianmomof3 :wave:

Welcome! I was wondering if you realized you were smack dab in the middle of a forum where we believe speaking in tongues is indeed for today? (charismatic)

I would even bet that most folks posting here have indeed been baptized in the Holy Spirit and given the gift of tongues.

It's a beautiful experience and one not spoken about in many denominational churches...however, as God pours His Spriit out in abundance, I am hearing more and more Methodist, Baptist etc churches begin to teach about this 'empowering' as spoken about in the book of Acts.

I'm sure you'll read some good responses here...bless you!

christianmomof3 · Apr 19, 2006

Hisgirl said:
Hi Christianmomof3

Welcome! I was wondering if you realized you were smack dab in the middle of a forum where we believe speaking in tongues is indeed for today? (charismatic)

I would even bet that most folks posting here have indeed been baptized in the Holy Spirit and given the gift of tongues.

It's a beautiful experience and one not spoken about in many denominational churches...however, as God pours His Spriit out in abundance, I am hearing more and more Methodist, Baptist etc churches begin to teach about this 'empowering' as spoken about in the book of Acts.

I'm sure you'll read some good responses here...bless you!

I do not know much about Pentacostal or Charismatic - I am here to learn. Several years ago there was a little Pentacostal church at the end of my street where I used to live and they had a children's outreach type ministry and I would take my oldest dd, who was 5 then (she is 13 now) and she had fun and the people there were very nice.

Hisgirl · Apr 19, 2006

christianmomof3 said:
I do not know much about Pentacostal or Charismatic - I am here to learn. Several years ago there was a little Pentacostal church at the end of my street where I used to live and they had a children's outreach type ministry and I would take my oldest dd, who was 5 then (she is 13 now) and she had fun and the people there were very nice.

That's great! I would suggest reading through the book of Acts too. Please don't base too much on our behavior as of late...sometimes we tend to act like squabbling five-year-olds...there's a lot of different beliefs here in regards to healing and we like to hash it out about every eight weeks.

There's a cool web site called www.layhands.com where you can read some wonderfully insightful articles pertaining to charismatic issues. It helped me a lot when I was first learning.

Bless you!

BenAdam · Apr 19, 2006

In regards to the OP, no offense for I know you are honestly seeking, but these kind of questions and arguments are ridiculous.

People get hellbent on what "evidence" someone has for being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Carnal people can speak in tongues, and extremely Godly people sometimes don't. Tongues is NOTHING if you don't allow yourself to be changed and led by God Himself.

The true evidence is a changed life...

BarbB · Apr 19, 2006

BenAdam said:
.... Tongues is NOTHING if you don't allow yourself to be changed and led by God Himself.

The true evidence is a changed life...

Awesome post - especially for a pirate!

HisGirl's right. We do this every so often. Her posts are always edifying!

(I love that word - edify! We need to edify more and squabble less! :clap:

)

BenAdam · Apr 19, 2006

BarbB said:
Awesome post - especially for a pirate!

HisGirl's right. We do this every so often. Her posts are always edifying!

(I love that word - edify! We need to edify more and squabble less! )

Thanks BarbB!!!!

JEBrady · Apr 19, 2006

mhazell said:
1) Do you believe in initial evidence, and if so, what is your Biblical basis for it?
2) What is your view on "baptism in the Holy Spirit"? Is it a Biblical idea? Why? When does this "baptism" happen (assuming you believe in it)?

Since youre in an AOG school already, I suggest you pick up a copy of What Meaneth This at the bookstore. Its put out by Gospel Publishing House, so I imagine its in stock, and if not, they should be able to get it for you. Buy it or borrow it, and it will give you the biblical basis behind this doctrine. I highly recommend this if youre really questioning whether this is supported in scripture.

Personally, I don't believe in initial evidence. I can't see why the "evidence" can't be any of the other (1 Cor 12) gifts of the Spirit. If someone performs a healing, but does not speak in tongues, then what? Is it a counterfeit healing? Did they have the Holy Spirit for a split second? Also, see 1 Cor 12:29-30 in context. The implied answer to all of these questions is "no". I'm not sure how/if that can be reconciled with the initial evidence thing.

You really have to pay close attention to understand 1 Co 12-14.
The list in 1 Co 12:29 is ministry gifts. The list in v. 4-8 is manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Heres the short question: if you can all prophesy, why are all not prophets?

I'm new to this board, but there's been a rash of questions on this subject. I posted something more in depth recently. Maybe I can find that post.

Because I hold this view, I am tempted to argue that the "baptism" in the Spirit is not a distinct event, but happens on conversion. However, I am not sure how I would go about putting a successful case forward for that idea, so I won't (yet).

See Acts 8 and read about the Samarian revival. These believers got saved under Philips ministry, but Peter and John had to be called in to get them filled with the Spirit.

So... am I in the minority?

What really matters is what the Bible says about it.

Here's a cut and paste from my previous post:
Regarding the baptism in the Holy Spirit, scriptural precedent is shown in Acts 2, and they spoke with other tongues. At Cornelius house, the sign that the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit was that they spoke with tongues and glorified God. The scriptural evidence that a person has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit is to speak with tongues. You can be saved by faith in the Lord Jesus, receiving the fullness of the Spirit is a further work of grace. See Acts 19 for an instance of believers who hadnt received the baptism.

As others have said, you dont have to speak in tongues to be saved. You already have the Holy Spirit by faith, who witnesses with your spirit that you are saved. Thats not the same thing as the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Before the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, Jesus had breathed on the believers and said, Receive the Holy Spirit (Jn 20:22). Later they were baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Also, the first passage you quote in 1 Co 12 is a list of ministry gifts. The earlier list of 9 manifestations of the Holy Spirit in v.8-10 are not ministry gifts, they are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Anyone can speak in tongues if you receive the Holy Spirit baptism, but not everyone is used in that ministry. There are folks that get used in that regularly, and if you havent seen it, you wont know what that means. In the assembly, there are some restrictions on the way these manifestations are used. Its really important to study this out to understand it properly. The list in 1 Co12:27 et al is those ministries God has placed in the church. The obvious answer to each question is no. Not everybody is a prophet, for instance. But on occasion anyone may have a word of wisdom, word of knowledge or discerning of spirits manifest in their Christian walk. But for a prophet, those manifestations are common, whereas if a person is not called to be a prophet it will be uncommon. For a regular Christian, one may speak in tongues at any time if baptized in the Holy Spirit, but not in the church, out loud, to the assembly. While on occasion that may happen, only someone called to that ministry is going to be manifesting that regularly, and it has to be accompanied by interpretation of tongues.

How do you harmonize where Paul says you may all prophesy and yet not all are prophets? Ones a manifestation, ones a ministry.

The second I Co 14:22 reference shouldnt be considered out of context. The whole chapter is to try and establish the principles of use for spiritual gifts in the church. This is why you have interpretation of tongues in conjunction with speaking in tongues. If a person is speaking in tongues during the praise service, for instance, he is to do it under his breath, not to speak it out to the assembly, unless the Lord is directing it as a word to the assembly.

A book that examines some of these issues is What Meaneth This, published by Gospel Publishing House (associated with AG). As far as my experience, Ive been Pentecostal for 20 years and have had all those gifts manifest in my life at some time. I speak in tongues in my prayer life practically every time I pray, at least for part of the prayer. But I have never been used in the ministry of tongues in the assembly (though I have been used in gifts of healings, prophecy, and some others). No one works these things themselves. God is the one who works them. They are manifestations of the Holy Spirit, not manifestations of man or mans spirit.

If you have a specific question about anything in this post, please ask it. Ill try to give a specific answer if I have any light on it. Speaking in tongues is speaking in tongues, whether its in your private prayer life or in the assembly, but the usage is different, not the actual manifestation itself or its origin.

In spite of Gods grace in my life, Im really spiritually pretty obtuse. It took all my desire and 3 months of hitting the altar 3 times a week for the baptism before I was able to receive it, and I just barely did when I did. Its a faith thing. But regarding fruit, you are dead on right its more important than what manifestations God uses you in- and the Bible makes that really clear. Remember a scripture anywhere about a clanging cymbal??? Theres a reason why the love chapter is wedged between the two chapters on spiritual gifts. Its so we know what the purpose of those things is- theyre to work by LOVE.

dentonz · Apr 19, 2006

mhazell said:
OK, here's the scoop.... I have just finished my first year at Mattersey Hall Bible College, which is run by the AoG (Assemblies of God), a Pentecostal denomination. I'm sure most of you have heard of it at some point....

Anyway, I am not a member of the AoG; I would class myself as a non-denominational Charismatic Christian. I believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and operate in them. The one problem I seem to have with the AoG is their insistance on initial evidence, which is the doctrine that when you are baptised in the Holy Spirit, you will speak in tongues. In other words, the gift of tongues is the evidence that you are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Most of my ideas are always in flux, and this is no exception. (I say most - obviously central ideas I am 100% sure of, i.e. Jesus being God, the Trinity, etc.) So, to try and gather a greater understanding of the positions on initial evidence, these are the (grouped) questions:

1) Do you believe in initial evidence, and if so, what is your Biblical basis for it?
2) What is your view on "baptism in the Holy Spirit"? Is it a Biblical idea? Why? When does this "baptism" happen (assuming you believe in it)?

Personally, I don't believe in initial evidence. I can't see why the "evidence" can't be any of the other (1 Cor 12) gifts of the Spirit. If someone performs a healing, but does not speak in tongues, then what? Is it a counterfeit healing? Did they have the Holy Spirit for a split second? Also, see 1 Cor 12:29-30 in context. The implied answer to all of these questions is "no". I'm not sure how/if that can be reconciled with the initial evidence thing.

Because I hold this view, I am tempted to argue that the "baptism" in the Spirit is not a distinct event, but happens on conversion. However, I am not sure how I would go about putting a successful case forward for that idea, so I won't (yet).

So... am I in the minority?

Read the thread on Acts 19: 1-7 in this same forum and it might give you some more insight. Separate instances for conversion and baptism of the Spirit are recorded several time in Acts, but most definately in Acts 8 concerning the Samarians.

However, I can't say absolutely, at this moment that the evidence is always speaking in tounges. All the 120 in Acts 2 spoke in tounges. All the believers in Ephesus began to speak in tounges and prophesy when they received the baptism in Acts 19.

JimB · Apr 19, 2006

Since I believe the baptism by the Spirit occurs at the time you are saved 1 Cor. 12.13 tongues is not an evidence. Anyhow, you have to ask, an evidence to whom? God knows you are saved and you know it by the witness of the Holy Spirit. Who else needs evidence?

AllTalkNoAction · Apr 19, 2006

Jim M said:
Since I believe the baptism by the Spirit occurs at the time you are saved 1 Cor. 12.13 tongues is not an evidence.

Please explain that logic ?
The baptism in the Spirit is clearly defined in Acts, all knew precisely when they received it, they immediately spoke in tongues !

If it is possible to receive the Spirit and NOT speak in tongues, the apostles were *wrong* to judge that the Spirit had just fallen upon people when they spoke in tongues, logically they could only say that people had *at some unknown time previously* received the Spirit . . . but they didn't.

1 Cor. 12v13 also alludes to this:-
1Co:12:13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

All are "made to drink" as they speak in tongues ("the refreshing" - Isaiah 28v11-12, 1 Cor. 14v21-22).

We need evidence because our hearts are "deceitful above all things" (Jer. 17v9), so God must bare independant witness (Acts 18v8, Romans 8v15-16, Gal. 4v6)
The new tongue signifies the new heart.

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