Universal salvation

God's ultimate plan for creation is universal salvation for all. Check the link out and see for yourself.

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I don't need to go to a website; I have the word of God. Salvatoin is not universal.

Ir you would care to discuss supposedly "universal" verses, (such as 1Tim4:10, 2Cor5:14, etc) --- I will be happy to discuss.

But be aware of one thing: their website is full of heresy. Look at THIS LINK, and read these words:

UNIVERSAL SALVATION!

IS JESUS GOD?

No, He is not. Furthermore, it is an absolute impossibility for Him to be God.


This is a CHRISTIAN ONLY section of our message board; as such, the rules forbid participation of those who do not believe that Jesus is God, nor is it allowed to post links to a site that denies the Trinity.

This thread should be moved to the Unorthodox Theology section. It does not belong in this section, at all.

Redemption said:

God's ultimate plan for creation is universal salvation for all. Check the link out and see for yourself. http://www.christianworld.freeserve.co.uk/

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Hi there!



It is not in God's plan that any should perish... but it is still a choice.

The doctrine of Universal Salvation teaches that all will have eternal life, including Satan and the demons. And that one day, all will have the same nature as God. What sort of a heart could not approve of Universal Salvation, eternal life for all?

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Oh, I agree that God created angels and men to live eternally... but where?


If God created two places for eternal living and placed qualifiers on each place... then, it still remains a choice in which place you qualify to spend eternity.


~serapha~

The doctrine of Universal Salvation teaches that all will have eternal life, including Satan and the demons. And that one day, all will have the same nature as God. What sort of a heart could not approve of Universal Salvation, eternal life for all?

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Why isn't this painfully obvious to all? It's not new; it was frist spoken in a garden, long ago.

"If you eat of the fruit, you shall not surely die; you shall be like God." Genesis3:4-5

Personally, I don' wanna be like God; I'm happy being an imperfect (for now) creation, willing and content to serve Him forever.

Imagine --- trying to keep track of everything, every person, every deed --- even each individual hair and grain of sand. He's so much better at that...

Some verses to ponder.

"And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" -Luke 3:22-27

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," -Romans 9:27

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it,"

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: -Romans 9:22

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:" -Matthew 25:32

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" -Matthew 25:41

Ben johnson said:

Why isn't this painfully obvious to all? It's not new; it was frist spoken in a garden, long ago.

"If you eat of the fruit, you shall not surely die; you shall be like God." Genesis3:4-5

Personally, I don' wanna be like God; I'm happy being an imperfect (for now) creation, willing and content to serve Him forever.

Imagine --- trying to keep track of everything, every person, every deed --- even each individual hair and grain of sand. He's so much better at that...

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Amen!

The idea of universal salvation is a dangerous one. Why accept God and turn from the sin we love so much if I am going to go to Heaven anyway? I think this kind of teaching is one that needs to be exposed harshly every time.

doesnt the bible say that only a few who have stayed faithful wil enter the kingdom of heaven? im pretty sure ive heard a preacher read it once, i just dont know where from.

And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ "Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,

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I think this parable can be interpreted in many different ways. I don't see those standing outside and knocking as having noble intentions for getting into the Father's house. If they did, surely the Father would welcome them in like a prodigal son. The Father, knowing this, closes the door on them, because they are not repentant in their hearts. If their hearts had changed, he certainly would have not only invited them in but thrown a feast. I think it erroneous to translate passages as this one on a completely post-mortem basis and parables such as the prodigal son on a purely this-lifetime one. The soul's freedom to choose trancends death.

Universal salvation goes hand in hand with free will, which i believe men are meant to experience not as an instrument but as an end. If we have the freedom (subjectively, at least) to choose what kind of a person we want to be, then it is reasonable to conclude that the freedom will exist after our bodies die. Universal salvation doesn't mean god is going to strip people of their will and force them to be holy automatons, but it does mean that good people won't be locked out of heaven against their will.

That being said, habits are hard to break, and sin is a power which must be voluntarily repented of and until that happens, salvation is impossible.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

Just a few scripture references from this site....
II. We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect" have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than a certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation.

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.

1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure.

IV. Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 - we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that many people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html
V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice

Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace.

Rom. 11:20-22 - we can be in the tree of God's grace by faith in the Messiah, then quit believing and persevering and be cut off.

1 Cor. 9:22,27 - even Saint Paul recognized that he could lose his salvation by choosing wrong. Not every runner receives a prize. If Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why are many Protestant churches so presumptuous to think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:27 - the word "disqualified" that Paul uses comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. This proves that Paul believes he can lose his salvation. Protestants, therefore, who believe in "once saved, always saved" have to argue that "disqualified" cannot refer to being cut off from Christ and salvation. Instead, they argue that "disqualified" only refers to receiving less rewards in heaven. But Scripture disproves their claim:

Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7 - for example, in these verses "adokimos" always refers to those reprobates who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:12 - anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away.

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 - I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ. Paul thus teaches that we can be in Christ, and still fall away from Christ. Once saved, always saved?

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling?

Phil. 3:11-12 - again, Saint Paul acknowledges the need to endure to the end and has no presumption of salvation.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we are steadfast.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith." They had the faith, then lost it.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

2 Tim. 4:8 - it is only at end of Saint Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. But this is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we must have a moral certitude of salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We can choose to fall away.

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

Heb. 3:12 - take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it.

Heb. 4:6 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away.

Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.

2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.

2 Peter 1:10 - we are all called to God, but we must "work" hard to keep our calling. By grace we participate in our salvation.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

1 John 2:19 - "they left, but didn't not belong to us" refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.

1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don't shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.

2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.

Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?

Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?

Ezek. 3:20; 18:24 - the righteous can turn away from their righteousness, and their prior good deeds will be forgotten.

So from the the multitude of scriptural references shown, we can see that Universal Salvation for all is also not scriptural. And since we know that the scriptures are the Word of God and that they are inerrent in the message they hold, we can see that the Lord himself does not promote such a theory either.

Although, our Lord wants all of us to be there, as it has been said before in this thread and something that I promote heavily it is by our own choice using our own Free Will that we have been given by the Lord that we either attain Salvation in the end or not. The promise is there for those that remain faithful and righteous until the end.

Pax Christi
Debi

debi - I would say that in todays definition, we have changed the orginal meaning of this Greek "hope" from a thing of assurity to a thing mearly desired and "wished for". Look at the definition :

elpis el-pece' - from a primary elpo (to anticipate, usually with pleasure); expectation (abstractly or concretely) or confidence:--faith, hope.

For lack of anything else - Call this "hope" faith indeed - because it should be a reality , for those that are predestined (chosen of God - not by themselves), that they participate in the 1st resurrection.

The mistake most often made is in not understanding what this "DESTRUCTION" is - For remember this: You must DIE to LIVE -

Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose (SOUL) it: and he that loseth his life(SOUL) for my sake shall find it.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matthew 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mark 9:26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 12:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Acts 20:9-10 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
Acts 28:6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:4-9 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 7:4-11 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
Romans 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
Romans 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by that glorifying in you, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the power of sin is the law:
2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written, and engraven on stones, came with glory, so that the children of Israel could not look stedfastly upon the face of Moses for the glory of his face; which glory was passing away:
2 Corinthians 4:11-12 For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;
2 Corinthians 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances,
Colossians 3:3 For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
1 Timothy 5:6 But she that giveth herself to pleasure is dead while she liveth.
James 1:15 Then the lust, when it hath conceived, beareth sin: and the sin, when it is fullgrown, bringeth forth death.
1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death.
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last,
Revelation 9:6 And in those days men shall seek death, and shall in no wise find it; and they shall desire to die, and death fleeth from them.

III. Predestination and the "Elect"

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God predestined us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 - Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 - we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. This is predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 - we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 - we see that the names in the book of life can be blotted out. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:29-30- therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by foreknowledge. As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us. If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God's image and likeness.

Acts 10:35, 45 - these texts show that non-Christians can also be saved if they fear God, even though they haven't formally accepted Jesus as Savior at an altar call. They just do not have the fullness of the means of salvation.

1 Tim. 2:4 - God desires all men to be saved. But our freewill may choose to reject God's grace. In order for our gift of freewill not to be a sham, God must also give us the freedom to reject Him.

2 Pet. 3:9 - the Lord doesn't wish that any should perish, but come to full repentance.

James 1:13-14 - God tempts no one. Each person is tempted by his own desire. God gives us freewill to cooperate with Him or reject Him.

1 Cor. 10:13 - God permits temptation, but does not author temptation. God also provides us sufficient grace to overcome any temptation.

John 3:16-17 - God so loved the world He sent His Son, that the world might be saved (not that only the "elect" might be saved).

John 4:42 - Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect). Some will perish by their own choosing.

Rom. 5:6,18 - Christ died for the ungodly (all of us), and His righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men (not just the elect).

2 Cor. 5:14-15 - Christ has died for all (not just the elect), that those who live might live for Him.

1 Tim. 2:6 - Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.

1 Tim. 4:10 - our hope is on the living God who is the Savior of all men (not just the elect).

Titus 2:11 - for the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men (not just the elect).

1 John 2:2 - Christ is the expiation for the sins of the whole world (not just the elect). But not all are predestined to glory because of their own choosing.

1 John 4:14 - again, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world (not just the Savior of the elect).

Sir. 15:11-20 - salvation, a free gift, is ours to accept or reject. God's sovereignty includes our freewill. Our fate is predestined, but not predetermined.

Crystal71503 said:

doesnt the bible say that only a few who have stayed faithful wil enter the kingdom of heaven? im pretty sure ive heard a preacher read it once, i just dont know where from.

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Hi there!




My Bible says that we are saved by faith, and I don't believe that God does an imperfect work. The Bible does say that many will be (are) deceived by false doctrines, but they are deceived from the beginning and their redemption is not based upon sound teachings; ergo, no redemption, but simply being misled into believing that they are redeemed.


~serapha~

FreeWill? Neah - its an "illusion" only ....

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Acts 10:40-41 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest, not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-5 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

1 Peter 5:10 And the God of all grace, who called you unto his eternal glory in Christ, after that ye have suffered a little while, shall himself perfect, establish, strengthen you.

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Isaiah 42:1 Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen, in whom my soul delighteth: I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

God chooses - you really don't ...its just our pride in ourselves that makes us wanna be the "decision maker". And the Elect are the 1st Resurrection - They are chosen from God ... not of yourselves at all. Oh the pride of man wants so bad to SHOW his righteousness - but submission is righteousness.

And for this cause - the pride of man - he wants REVENGE on his fellow unbelieving brethren ... those that "spitefully abuse" - But I say this: Pray for them ...for in so doing you will heap hot coals (hell) upon thier head (spirit). And God will DROWN them with His Love in the Lake of Baptism.

Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for
Salvation

Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - many Protestants believe that, in order to be saved, one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. They believe that good works are not necessary for salvation, but simply flow from those who are already saved. But these verses teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can People believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 - we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus orders the Ephesians who have strong faith to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus acknowledges the good works of the Thyatirans, except their tolerance of Jezebel and is thus not satisfied.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus will give each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:1-2,8,15 - again, Jesus is judging our works from heaven. We choose to apply Christ's merits to our own lives.

Rev. 14:13, 20:12 - we are judged by the Lord by our works. Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

VI. I Have Been Saved (past event)

Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.

VII. I Am Being Saved (present event)

1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.

VIII. I Will Be Saved (future event)

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed.

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up.

IX. I Save (by participating in Christ's salvific work)

Rom. 11:13-14 - I magnify my ministry to make the Jews jealous and thus save some of them. Paul says that he is the one doing the saving, but he really means that he participates in Christ's work of salvation.

1 Cor. 7:16 - Paul indicates that a wife can save her husband and vice versa. We are lesser mediators in Christ's salvific work.

1 Cor. 9:22 - Paul says he has become all things to men that he might save some. Only God saves, but His children participate in their salvation.

1 Tim. 4:16 - you will save both yourself and your hearers. Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate, for we are members of His body.

James 5:20 - whoever brings back a sinner will save his soul from death. We are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jude 22-23 - we are instructed to save some people, by snatching them out of the fire. We participate in our salvation and in the salvation of others.

Prov. 16:6 - by love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for. We can participate in Christ's atonement through our love and faith.

debiwebi[b said:

But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill[/b]

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If God says he authors or creates something and you still deny that he does, who do you suppose is correct?

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

My guess is you already know this verse and have chosen of your own freewill to deny its truth.

1Corinthians 10
[font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]13[/font][font=Trebuchet MS,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it.[/font]
You do know of this verse do you not?

And tell me do you believe in the Garden of Eden that the Lord created Evil? Do you think that when He created the Heavens and the Earth that He created Evil?

Or was this brought about and then He himself did then create it as well. But the point is He did not Author it....It was Authored by Satan. Which means that He allows and at times does create it for his use yes, but the Originator of Evil was Satan not the Lord. And in that there is a difference. He also makes it so that those that are His righteous will be able to overcome the Evil, and that they will be able to bear it as the scripture states. He has protected us, if we believe and have Faith then we must believe that nothing will come our way that we cannot handle with the help and guiding hand of the Lord and that we are alway under His protection because of this. Thus the Originator of Evil cannot get to us, His Righteous People.

Pax Christi
Debi

Ps do not accuse me of ignorance again I do not take well to it. What I do believe is to take everything the Bible has to say and to put it together into proper context, the Bible is a harmonious and Living book...it does not I repeat does not contradict itself. So therfore maybe it is you that needs to go back and look through the scriptures again, in order to get their full context.