Preterism and the Holy Spirit

frost · Jul 9, 2003

From what I understand of preterism, the belief is that the Holy Spirit was removed after Christ's second coming; there is no need for him because Christ now reigns with us. Is this accurate? If this is true, then the following verses do not apply to us today. I'd just like confirmation on this. Thank you.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

2 Timothy 1:14
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you–guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

armothe · Jul 9, 2003

frost said:
From what I understand of preterism, the belief is that the Holy Spirit was removed after Christ's second comming; there is no need for him because Christ now reigns with us. Is this accurate? If this is true, then the following verses do not apply to us today. I'd just like confirmation on this. Thank you.

I'm only one Preterist. And I would confirm what you said.

-A

frost · Jul 9, 2003

armothe said:
I'm only one Preterist. And I would confirm what you said.

-A

I'm still undecided about preterism, as I'm still looking at both sides. However, it would seem sad that those verses I quoted were not meant for us! I grew up believing that the Spirit was given to us upon conversion (Acts 2:38.) If preterists do not believe that, it seems that so many other promises in the NT are not meant for us either. That is a bit depressing.

I would like to know (from the preterist perspective,) if the HS is not living in us, prompting us to do God's will, convicting us of sin, revealing the Father to us, then who is? Also, doesn't that sort of negate the idea of the Trinity?

GW · Jul 9, 2003

The Holy Spirit is a distinctive element to New Covenant faith versus Old Covenant faith as experienced by the citizens of those respective ages. The presence of the Holy Spirit of God was restricted under the Old Testament, but is granted abundantly to citizens of the New Covenant.

Preterists rightly show that we now live in the "age to come" (i.e., the New Covenant age), and this era is marked by the workings and presence of God the Holy Spirit (Heb 6:4-5). Such was understood by Christ (Matt 12:31-32), by Paul (Romans 14:17; 2 Cor 3:3; 3:6-12; 1 Cor 2:11; 3:16; 12:3; Gal 6:8; Eph 2:18,22; 4:4; ), by John (Jn 14:16-23; 6:64; 3:6; 4:24/cf.Phil3:3), and is the clear witness of Church history since the earliest testimonies of the ECFs on down to today.

For more information on the Holy Spirit's primacy in the Kingdom of God from a fully preterist perspective, visit the Web site listed in my profile.

Agape,
GW

frost · Jul 9, 2003

The Holy Spirit is a distinctive element to New Covenant faith versus Old Covenant faith as experienced by the citizens of those respective ages. The presence of the Holy Spirit of God was restricted under the Old Testament, but is granted abundantly to citizens of the New Covenant.

This I understand and agree with.

Preterists rightly show that we now live in the "age to come" (i.e., the New Covenant age), and this era is marked by the workings and presence of God the Holy Spirit (Heb 6:4-5). Such was understood by Christ (Matt 12:31-32), by Paul (Romans 14:17; 2 Cor 3:3; 3:6-12; 1 Cor 2:11; 3:16; 12:3; Gal 6:8; Eph 2:18,22; 4:4; ), by John (Jn 14:16-23; 6:64; 3:6; 4:24/cf.Phil3:3), and is the clear witness of Church history since the earliest testimonies of the ECFs on down to today.

I'm not sure I understand your position here in relation to my original question. Do you think the HS is gone now? Armothe seemed to think so.

Also, I'd like it if you could answer my other questions in my 2 posts here, if posssible. I have been to the web site you mentioned and read some, but didn't really see what I was looking for. I'll restate my questions again:

1. Do those verses of scripture apply to us today or only to whom it was written?

2. What about issue of other NT promises not applying to us directly since the indended audience were specific, 1st century chruches and people.

3. If the HS is not living in us, prompting us to do God's will, convicting us of sin, revealing the Father to us, then who is?

4. Do preterists believe in the Trinity?

Thanks

GW · Jul 10, 2003

Frost:
Do you think the HS is gone now?

GW:
God the Holy Spirit is present now. The Spirit of God is central to the entire notion of the Kingdom, according to Jesus and the apostles. We live in the New Covenant Kingdom age, the eternal covenantal age that is rooted in Messiah himself by the Spirit and incarnate in the Church, the Temple-Body of Christ. Christ's Temple-Body is the Church, and the Church is filled with the Spirit. As the following verse states, the Church was BEING BUILT to be the habitation of God during AD 30-70, but now it IS the habitation of God:

"in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Eph 2:21-22)

Next, we live in the "age to come," and that age knows a primacy of the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:31-32; Romans 14:17; 2 Cor 3:3; 3:6-12; 1 Cor 2:11; 3:16; 12:3; Gal 6:8; Eph 2:18,22; 4:4; Jn 14:16-23; 6:64; 3:6; 4:24/cf.Phil3:3). It is also a fact that Church history has abundantly testified to the presence of the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

Frost:
Also, I'd like it if you could answer my other questions in my 2 posts here, if posssible....
Do those verses of scripture apply to us today or only to whom it was written?

GW:
They were written to the first members of the then-impending New Covenant Age, and they told of the New Covenant reality of God's Spirit. New Covenant Kingdom realities extend to all members of the covenant. The Spirit's presence is bound within the terms of the New Covenant.

Frost:
What about issue of other NT promises not applying to us directly since the indended audience were specific, 1st century chruches and people.

GW:
Covenantal law and promises extend to all members of a covenant (therefore to us). Moses' covenant with the Israelites of the Wilderness generation stuck around for 1500 years, and that Law of Moses was a mere "shadow" of the greater Law of Christ.

However, the "last days" generation that transitioned in the New Covenant Kingdom age [i.e., AD 30-70] was a mere 40 year struggle to break from the Law bondage and curse for the People of God. The "last days" struggle for God's people ended with the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem. God's wife is the Church.

Frost:
If the HS is not living in us, prompting us to do God's will, convicting us of sin, revealing the Father to us, then who is?

GW:
If you do not have the Spirit of Christ you are none of His. If you do not have the Spirit you cannot know God.

Frost:
Do preterists believe in the Trinity?

GW:
Yes. (I'm sure there are exceptions, however, just like there are exceptions among futurists.)

frost · Jul 10, 2003

GW said:
Frost:
Do you think the HS is gone now?

GW:
God the Holy Spirit is present now. The Spirit of God is central to the entire notion of the Kingdom, according to Jesus and the apostles. We live in the New Covenant Kingdom age, the eternal covenantal age that is rooted in Messiah himself by the Spirit and incarnate in the Church, the Temple-Body of Christ. Christ's Temple-Body is the Church, and the Church is filled with the Spirit. As the following verse states, the Church was BEING BUILT to be the habitation of God during AD 30-70, but now it IS the habitation of God:

"in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Eph 2:21-22)

Next, we live in the "age to come," and that age knows a primacy of the Holy Spirit (Matt 12:31-32; Romans 14:17; 2 Cor 3:3; 3:6-12; 1 Cor 2:11; 3:16; 12:3; Gal 6:8; Eph 2:18,22; 4:4; Jn 14:16-23; 6:64; 3:6; 4:24/cf.Phil3:3). It is also a fact that Church history has abundantly testified to the presence of the Holy Spirit for 2000 years.

Frost:
Also, I'd like it if you could answer my other questions in my 2 posts here, if posssible....
Do those verses of scripture apply to us today or only to whom it was written?

GW:
They were written to the first members of the then-impending New Covenant Age, and they told of the New Covenant reality of God's Spirit. New Covenant Kingdom realities extend to all members of the covenant. The Spirit's presence is bound within the terms of the New Covenant.

Frost:
What about issue of other NT promises not applying to us directly since the indended audience were specific, 1st century chruches and people.

GW:
Covenantal law and promises extend to all members of a covenant (therefore to us). Moses' covenant with the Israelites of the Wilderness generation stuck around for 1500 years, and that Law of Moses was a mere "shadow" of the greater Law of Christ.

However, the "last days" generation that transitioned in the New Covenant Kingdom age [i.e., AD 30-70] was a mere 40 year struggle to break from the Law bondage and curse for the People of God. The "last days" struggle for God's people ended with the destruction of the Temple at Jerusalem. God's wife is the Church.

Frost:
If the HS is not living in us, prompting us to do God's will, convicting us of sin, revealing the Father to us, then who is?

GW:
If you do not have the Spirit of Christ you are none of His. If you do not have the Spirit you cannot know God.

Frost:
Do preterists believe in the Trinity?

GW:
Yes. (I'm sure there are exceptions, however, just like there are exceptions among futurists.)

Thanks, that explains much, including that the answer to my original question is apparently disputed among preterists (as the first person to reply seemed to believe the HS was gone, not being needed anymore.) Though, you seem to think of the Holy Spirit as less of a real person and more of an ideal, such as a "spirit of patriotism." Is this correct? Does that not lessen the trinitarian role of the Spirit?

GW · Jul 10, 2003

Frost:
Though, you seem to think of the Holy Spirit as less of a real person and more of an ideal, such as a "spirit of patriotism." Is this correct?

GW:
No, it is not correct. I mean God the Holy Spirit. You know, God.

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Jul 11, 2003

Do you believe the Kingdom has started?.... if so when did the Great tribulation take place ? verse please?

Phoenix · Jul 11, 2003

Mark 1:15

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

GW · Jul 11, 2003

Hi A-Brethren.

Phoenix is correct that the time of the Kingdom arrived 2000 years ago, as pronounced by Jesus himself.

As to when the great tribulation transpired, simply compare Matthew 24:15-20 with Luke 21:20-23. Luke shows it took place when Jerusalem fell to the Romans.

Blessings,
GW

frost · Jul 11, 2003

As I said before, I'm still undecided about preterism, as I only heard of the idea a few weeks ago. But, I have a few more questions for you preterist folks.

1. If Satan is in the lake of fire, when was he (or when will he be,) "released for a short time to deceive the nations?"

2. If Satan is in the lake of fire, does that mean all his demons are there as well? That would of course mean there are no such things as demonic forces at work today. Many (myself not included,) feel that certain events of life are from demonic influence, sickness for instance. Also, hasn't the Catholic church performed exorcisms in the last 2000 years? If so, was it in vain?

3. Also, who were the 144,000?

Well that's enough for now. Thanks in advance!

GW · Jul 11, 2003

FROST:
If Satan is in the lake of fire, when was he (or when will he be,) "released for a short time to deceive the nations?"

GW:
For the biblical summary on the loosing of Satan, click here:

http://www.preteristvision.org/encyclopedia/encyclopedia_s.html#subhead1

FROST:
If Satan is in the lake of fire, does that mean all his demons are there as well? That would of course mean there are no such things as demonic forces at work today.

GW:
It doesn't imply that (although many assume such a meaning). Rather, it means that Christ and the Church have total dominion over darkness via the success of the New Covenant. Under the terms of the Old Covenant contract, satanic dominion was not yet under the feet of the people of God. In fact, it was crushing them legally, by Mosaic writ! By covenant, satan was at that time permitted to accuse and prosecute legitimate guilt against the People of God--and the OT saints, being guilty and with no legal recourse, summarily fell under the apocalyptic curses of the Mosaic Contract as a result (as listed at Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26). Because of the successful victory of the New Covenant Israel, Satan is no longer the accuser of the brethren (Romans 8:1-2,33-34), for salvation has come to them (Rev 12:10), and the curse was lifted from God's people.

Now, what does that mean for those outside of the covenant? Revelation 22, the depiction of the "New Covenant World," tells us:

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

There, in the New Covenant World, we see the clear blessing for those that will convert, and the miserable lostness of the heathen that refuse conversion. The heathen must remain outside the holy city, while conversion (robes washed in the blood of Jesus) brings the lost into the covenant city of God. The heathen remain under the power of darkness and sorcery and wickedness, and only conversion can save them.

Frost:
Many (myself not included,) feel that certain events of life are from demonic influence, sickness for instance. Also, hasn't the Catholic church performed exorcisms in the last 2000 years? If so, was it in vain?

GW:
The victory over satan pertains to the People of God alone -- the Elect. All others remain in darkness. Thus, conversion is the process of removing people from the powers of darkness and into the possession of God and light (see Col 1:12-14).

Frost:
Also, who were the 144,000?

GW:
The Jewish remnant under Messiah. Up to AD 66, Jerusalem was the headquarters of the New Israel under Christ--the city where the 12 patriarchs of the Messiah (the twelve Jewish apostles) built the Church from. The remnant remained in Jerusalem on a mission to their natural brothers (per Matthew 10:1-23) until they fled into the wilderness as commanded by Jesus. In AD 66-67, they fled to the wilderness when the Romans surrounded the city, and the city fell under sword and Christ's vengeance (Luke 21:20-23).

A Brethren IN CHRIST · Jul 11, 2003

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be.

please explain this

ezekial 47:1-10 dead sea healed in the kingdom
isiah 11:6 wolf and lamb dwell together peacefully in kingdom

as you can see i beleive you are taking scripture out of context

frost · Jul 11, 2003

GW:
It doesn't imply that (although many assume such a meaning).

So, there could still be demonic forces that can affect non-believers, is that what you're saying? If so, then "casting out demons" as was done in the NT can still be done today?

GW · Jul 11, 2003

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
as you can see i beleive you are taking scripture out of context

GW:
Brother, let scripture interpret the scripture. Jesus instructs the apostles on what they were to do:

--COMPARE THIS PASSAGE--

"Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. (Matthew 24:15-20)

--TO THIS PASSAGE--

"when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; (Luke 21:20-23)

By simply letting scripture interpret scripture, we see with absolute certainty that the "great distress/tribulation" took place when the Romans came to destroy Jerusalem. Luke leaves no wiggle room: the great distress of Matthew 24:20-24 and Luke 21:20-23 transpired at the Roman/Jewish war of 66-70AD. For those were "the days of vengeance that all things be fulfilled" (Luke 21:22)

GW · Jul 11, 2003

FROST:
So, there could still be demonic forces that can affect non-believers, is that what you're saying? If so, then "casting out demons" as was done in the NT can still be done today?

GW:
Of course.* Has been done. Is done. Will be done.

(*Note: Preterists that come from a materialist-rationalist tradition of Christianity, however, would disagree with me. Such don't believe spirits exist within the cosmos. While some such preterists are willing to admit that evil spirits existed until the first century, their Western, rationalist, materialist traditions prohibit them from holding a consistent covenantal perspective on the defeat of satan. They become "universalists" on that one particular aspect of salvation, and thus assign spiritual oppression/possession to a "psychological category of mental illness." I would remind them that "psychology," with all its terminology and diagnoses, is a modern invention. I believe the spiritual cosmological worldview of the ancients is the only correct view, and that worldview has only been doubted in recent times by strict materialists under the guise of "modern science.")

frost · Jul 11, 2003

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions GW, I can see you have an extensive background on the preterist perspective. I have to admit the more I learn, the more convincing it sounds. It's just such a mind-blowing thing to people (like me,) who have never heard of it. But when you start digging in to the Bible, it starts making sense. Hopefully I can think of some more questions for you but for now I'm off to bed

God Bless...

Phoenix · Jul 12, 2003

But when you start digging in to the Bible, it starts making sense.

Indeed it is Frost

For someone such as myself it's still difficult to comprehend. But, there is so much there that it's very hard to ignore ! Most preterists, i think you'll find, are very well versed in Scripture and have a very good understanding of the Bible. Especially GW, Parousia70 and the others who have posted here.

OldShepherd · Jul 12, 2003

GW said:
By simply letting scripture interpret scripture, we see with absolute certainty that the "great distress/tribulation" took place when the Romans came to destroy Jerusalem. Luke leaves no wiggle room: the great distress of Matthew 24:20-24 and Luke 21:20-23 transpired at the Roman/Jewish war of 66-70AD. For those were "the days of vengeance that all things be fulfilled" (Luke 21:22)

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

1.2 million Jews were said to have perished in the destruction of Jerusalem. Did this meet the criteria, "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be?" Prior to the 1940s it appeared to and many scholars before that time wrote that it was. But in the late 1930s a madman came to power in Europe. Before he died he was responsible for the masscre of over 7 million Jews. About five times the number who died during the fall of Jerusalem. Thus there was a tribulation greater than the fall of Jerusalem.

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