Gay Anglican bishop steps down for unity.

Nelzador

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drfeelgood said:
I'm sure the man is a fine man. Could be the nicest guy in the world for all I know, but I think he did the right thing. He put his brethren first. That is the definition of love, and he should be commended.

The issue is only half raised in your post. The other issue is the blatant homophobic and nasty tactics used by the evangelicals in their opposition to the appointment. IMO, their attitudes showed little love and should be condemned.
 
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The Midge

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Nelzador said:
The issue is only half raised in your post. The other issue is the blatant homophobic and nasty tactics used by the evangelicals in their opposition to the appointment. IMO, their attitudes showed little love and should be condemned.

Wooooooa Nelzador! There are two sides to this coin. Nasty tactics have been used by both sides. And please be careful about when using accusations of homophobia. Please be aware that the catholic side of the church has also raised reservations about the apointment of Cannon John. Many Evangelicals have not approved of the way the issue has been treated by some of the campaigners as not all evangelicals are fundementalist extreamists.

Never the less there is still a point of principle at stake. Should the Bride of Christ be ruled by contemporary standards of those of the bible? Should Jews be lead by a Gentile pig farmer who says they should eat bacon to help the pig industry out of recession?

The press have been quoting Issues in Human Sexuality as if it is Gospel. Personally, from what I have heard of it, I think it is a flawed document. They have also been quoting the Levitical dietry laws without consideration of the New Testament Scriptures. (Jesus saying about food not making you unclean, Peter's Vision of the blanket and Pauls critisim of the Judaisers). Their contribution to the debate has been less than helpful.
 
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Nelzador

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The Midge said:
Wooooooa Nelzador! There are two sides to this coin. Nasty tactics have been used by both sides. And please be careful about when using accusations of homophobia. Please be aware that the catholic side of the church has also raised reservations about the apointment of Cannon John. Many Evangelicals have not approved of the way the issue has been treated by some of the campaigners as not all evangelicals are fundementalist extreamists.

But the offensive tactic was used by evagelicals. This forced the liberal side of the Church to defend the appointment and I'm not surprised the Catholics were against it either. But then, they hardly have a shiny record when it comes to "clean" priests, so maybe it should be a case of pot-kettle-black. Frankly as someone on the outside looking in, the appointment of a celibate gay Bishop would have been a flash in the pan and no one would really have given it a second thought, yet for some reason a few people living around the world had to take issue about it.

I mean, the world is suffering from a thousand other worse things and one man's service to God and faith without harm or intent is deemed a catastrophe for the Anglican Church because he's gay? Come on now, these bishops need to get their head out of their you-know-what and start facing reality. A good majority of people don't buy the Bible as literal fact anymore. Most see it as a philosophy, which is healthier IMO than living everyday of your life like it's one big adventure out of Old Testament.


The press have been quoting Issues in Human Sexuality as if it is Gospel. Personally, from what I have heard of it, I think it is a flawed document.

Yeah, I could say the same thing about another certain document and it's take on sexuality.
 
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Blessed-one

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kiwimac said:
Blessed-One

Tell me, What respect were my fellow-Christians showing to the Bishop they forced to stand down? What compassion were they showing him? And why is it inappropriate for me and not for them also?

Kiwimac

i fear you have mistaken my meaning, but nevermind. As for my personal stance in this issue, i'm rather glad that this has happened, its results benefiting christians worldwide.

1. That the gay bishop would rather step down than cause division, is a christian act. Therefore, we are able to see beyond his sexuality, and into the human's heart. (into what a christian would have done in this situation)

2. This incidence may benefit the bishop who's stood down, allowing him time to think things over and pray about it. Maybe God has given him a sigh..

3. For those who forced him to stand down (and either pleased or surprised that the former bishop had agreed), God has given them a lesson in compassion and understanding, that is, if they heeded it.

4. Homosexuality is a sin, the message is well clear.
 
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Homosexuality has been proved to be genetic, it's not a choice. They can't choose to be attracted to women, it's just the way they are. If "god" hated gay people, he shouldn't have made them that way.

Plus, i think it's high time Christians stopped the double standards. If you're going to continue following the old testament, you have to follow ALL of it. That's right. You people picketing gays homes with "god hates f*gs" signs, start harassing people who eat at Red Lobster, because the same passage that condemns homosexuality also condemns eating shellfish.

But assuming that homosexuality is still a sin, what ever happened to "hate the sin, love the sinner"? It sure sounds pretty to say, but I've never seen anyone follow through with it. And doesn't "Jesus" supposedly love ALL his "children"? OOH OOH and "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR"!!!

I used to be a catholic. I do remember SOME things from the religion.
 
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Wiccan_Laura said:
I used to be a catholic. I do remember SOME things from the religion.

You also might remember that the passage doesn't condemn US from eating shellfish. You may also remember that homosexuality is also condemned in the New Testament, but alarmingly the shellfish are absent ;)
 
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how does it not condemn us from eating shellfish?

also, things have been changed/altered in the bible to justify people's actions. Such as there was no such thing as "Thou shall not suffer a witch to live"... it originally said "Thou shall not suffer a POISONER to live" which makes more sense.
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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The OT tells the OT nation of Israel not to eat shellfish, and Paul makes it very clear that Christians do not need to OT law. He does, however, say that homosexual sex, or any sex outside mariage, is wrong.

This does not mean that being gay is wrong, but that acting upon those temptations against the word of God is wrong. I agree that they do not choose to feel that way, but there are many things I feel tempted to do that I do not choose, I would much rather not feel the temptation at all. But that does not mean it is OK for me to do them, so I try not to. Of course I often fail and sin, but I am trying to live as God wants me to, and I know my sins will be forgiven by God's grace.
 
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The Midge

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Homosexuality has been proved to be genetic, it's not a choice. They can't choose to be attracted to women, it's just the way they are. If "god" hated gay people, he shouldn't have made them that way.

Has it? Where? Evidence please. I understand in the particular case in question he was married before leaving for a gay partner.

Plus, i think it's high time Christians stopped the double standards. If you're going to continue following the old testament, you have to follow ALL of it. That's right. You people picketing gays homes with "god hates f*gs" signs, start harassing people who eat at Red Lobster, because the same passage that condemns homosexuality also condemns eating shellfish.

No, Christians can eat shellfish! this is part of the poor theology being expounded by the press. It fails to take into account the New testament passages where gentile Christians are not expected to conform to Jewish dietry and purity laws (e.g Galations and Peters Vision before being sent to Cornelias (Acts). Also please note what Jesus said about what comes from the heart making us unclean and not what we eat. By contrast sexual morality is reinforced.

But assuming that homosexuality is still a sin, what ever happened to "hate the sin, love the sinner"? It sure sounds pretty to say, but I've never seen anyone follow through with it. And doesn't "Jesus" supposedly love ALL his "children"? OOH OOH and "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR"!!!

Picketing, hate, descrimination etc. are not part of the gospel. Most Christians think that is wrong. We are to be inmitators of God who is Love and who was revealed in the Person of Christ. Christians can be critisised when they do not live up to His standards. I can't imagine him with that kind of sign outside anyones house.

I used to be a catholic. I do remember SOME things from the religion.
 
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Yahweh Nissi

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The Midge said:
Has it? Where? Evidence please. I understand in the particular case in question he was married before leaving for a gay partner.

I think you are thinking of the Canadian guy. The guy this thread is about has only ever had a male partner.
 
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My point being is, that if we're "god"'s creations, why would god create someone to be like what he hates? If "God" hates homosexuality, why would he make people who just plain aren't attracted to women?

and there ARE christians who hate. Check out obviously you have to replace the @ sign with an "a", but this site wont let me write that word) , it's ALL about hating, descrimination, and so forth, ALL in "god"'s name!

Lanakila edited out link to offensive website. This violates our rules.
 
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Yahweh Nissi said:
I think you are thinking of the Canadian guy. The guy this thread is about has only ever had a male partner.

I stand corrected, thanks. There is a bit of misinformation going around (gossip)

Yesterday we had a letter from the Bishop of Oxon circulated around the parish. The main objective would appear to put all of this business behind us. The CofE is going to have to work hard on this.
 
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Wiccan_Laura said:
My point being is, that if we're "god"'s creations, why would god create someone to be like what he hates? If "God" hates homosexuality, why would he make people who just plain aren't attracted to women?

and there ARE christians who hate. Check out http://www.godhatesf@gs.com (obviously you have to replace the @ sign with an "a", but this site wont let me write that word) , it's ALL about hating, descrimination, and so forth, ALL in "god"'s name!

Undoubtedly there are Christians who hate. I had a quick look at the site before going :mad:. That bunch are so caught up removing the speck from another's eye that they miss their plank. They have forgotton God forgives and God is Love! :sigh:. Chrstians are by definition self confessed sinners. If they forget that then God will deal with them. (See Matthew 6)

There is a reason why God makes us the way we are often when people are wired up differently they have very special gifts. Never the less, I believe that Christianity teaches we are all required to live by certain standards and they apply to all. God hates all sin (all the various 'sex sins') just as much including judgemental attitudes and discrimination. IMO it is better to reflect on how to relate with compassion to sinners of all kinds with love than to produce that kind of bile. It achieves nothing other than to send the respective trenches. The gospel of peace can not be preached until the shells stop flying!
 
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Makes sense, makes sense... but I dont see why there's so much more against this one "sex sin" than others. It's very rare these days to find someone who's saved sex for marriage, or had sex with only one partner their entire life. But there's far less heat around that issue than homosexuality.
 
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SUNSTONE

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Wiccan_Laura said:
Makes sense, makes sense... but I dont see why there's so much more against this one "sex sin" than others. It's very rare these days to find someone who's saved sex for marriage, or had sex with only one partner their entire life. But there's far less heat around that issue than homosexuality.

Its not being singled out. inappropriate content, premaritial, adultery, all of these things will also prevent you from becoming a leader.
It happened to me, and a friend I know. My friend was out of the country on a missions trip when the leaders found out. They brung him back to the states, and basicly grounded him.
I was going to be a bible study leader, but my sin issues were still there, so someone else, who wasn't as qualified got the position.
At our church the pastor was fired for adultery.

To be a leader, requires sacrifice and a strong caractor.
 
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I find some of these responses very sad. One of the repeating claims is that God would not create one homosexual and then hate them. As a Christian, one needs to realize that the perfect relationship with God was broken in the garden of Eden. One of the results was that man's life span became limited, leading to death. When sin entered this world, we became predisposed to all kinds of actions contrary to God's will for us. Sin affects us in many forms - health, genetics, overt tendencies, etc. I belive homosexuality is one of those temptations that now enters the body, maybe in birth genetics, maybe not - I do not know. What I do know is that God has set a standard of sexual conduct. Homosexuality is clearly labled as sinful, just as lust, etc. that affect us all. Be clear that God loves us and has redeemed us by His Son Jesus Christ. Living a Christian life requires turning away form all ungodliness in ernest effort.

+
 
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The Midge said:
I stand corrected, thanks. There is a bit of misinformation going around (gossip)

Yesterday we had a letter from the Bishop of Oxon circulated around the parish. The main objective would appear to put all of this business behind us. The CofE is going to have to work hard on this.

Indeed it is, but I hope that progress can be made. Which parish is that?
 
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afnospam said:
I find some of these responses very sad. One of the repeating claims is that God would not create one homosexual and then hate them. As a Christian, one needs to realize that the perfect relationship with God was broken in the garden of Eden. One of the results was that man's life span became limited, leading to death. When sin entered this world, we became predisposed to all kinds of actions contrary to God's will for us. Sin affects us in many forms - health, genetics, overt tendencies, etc. I belive homosexuality is one of those temptations that now enters the body, maybe in birth genetics, maybe not - I do not know. What I do know is that God has set a standard of sexual conduct. Homosexuality is clearly labled as sinful, just as lust, etc. that affect us all. Be clear that God loves us and has redeemed us by His Son Jesus Christ. Living a Christian life requires turning away form all ungodliness in ernest effort.

+

Well you just stated, some of mans problems, and how much God loves us. Which are true.

But that doesn't have anything to do with who should be leaders in the church.
 
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afnospam

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SUNSTONE said:
Well you just stated, some of mans problems, and how much God loves us. Which are true.

And that was all I was replying about. But...

SUNSTONE said:
But that doesn't have anything to do with who should be leaders in the church.

I think Paul and others have covered it quite well. I have nothing to add.
 
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