Two witnesses

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Nope, 'fraid you got it mixed up.

After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end and desolations have been decreed.

Because it says that the anointed one shall be ''cut off'' aka crucified. Then war will continue until the end. The book of Daniel sort of gives the events and paints a picture of numerous anti-christs. It also gives it in a non-particular order, so to speak.

This was also not the first Desolation of the temple, if I'm not mistaken. http://www.ifmj.org/ has a rather good description of the events (though I believe the website is down atm).
 
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Crusader

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The United States has been that place were they have gathered and become the mighty warrior tribe that even today is the only thing standing up for Israel against the entire world. This all plays into God plan where the woman (Israel) was hidden in the wilderness:

I know the Mormon’s believe they are from the lost tribes of Israel and they dwelt in America but I never took them seriously??

Raphe, are you saying that the US is were the lost tribes are and that is who America is??
Isn’t that Mormon belief? And wouldn’t that be referring the red American Indian, not the white European??? I would also add that America is by no means the only country supporting Israel. That’s not so now and has never been so.

Not shore what you meant by saying the US is were the lost tribes have gathered???
I am hoping your not assuming that the European tribes that migrated to the Americas are by any means the lost tribes of Israel because they are Germanic tribes mate?

I doubt this because History shows that the tribes of Israel are lost to the world back before the Babylonian captivity, when they were scattered by the Assyrians.

Ephraim and the other tribes are lost to us, no one in todays world can claim there genealogies back to Israel unless it is through those who returned to Judea after the Babylonian captivity of Judah.

Even if god knows what became of them, it isn’t them who has moved back to Israel but rather the Jews.

I do agree however, that the two witnesses are the old covenant and the new covenant or mosses and the prophets as one witness and Jesus as the second witness or the JEWS (Judah) as one witness through time and the Christians also, as the other witness.

This still has nothing what so ever to do with Ephraim though????
Christians come under the banner of Judah because Jesus was a Jew and we are born again into Christ from Judah not Ephraim.
 
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Crusader

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I always figured that the desolation of the temple by Rome was the abomination that causes desolation??
I also thought that Daniel ch 9 was talking about messiah coming , not antiChrist, and setting up a new covenant and then getting cut of f (crucified) half way thought the last week , stopping the daily scarifies and then the apostles preaching the gospel for another 3 and a half years till they killed Stephen and the Christians fled Jerusalem and Saul went after them.

then the Romans that destroyed and wiped away Judea and then stopped any Jew living in Judea by 113 ad and named it Palestine , hence the abomination of Daniel that causes desolations for Israel. Like Jesus said to the Pharisees in matt 23, your house is left unto you as desolate and not one stone will stand upon another. He was referring to Rome , the abomination that causes desolation for Israel shorely?????????????????
 
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No because

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' (a peace treaty which is historically accurate) In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation (build a temple of Jupiter) until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. (the end of the roman empire)

From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

I guess there are numerous ways to interpret Daniel, but it is definately some interesting food for thought :)
 
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These verses are better verses for the new covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31
"The time is coming," declares the LORD ,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD .
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
After that time," declares the LORD .
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD .
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

and

Isaiah 42:6
"I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles
 
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Rafael

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Now Ephraim has not been lost to God, and you see He promises to restore Ephraim and Judah in scripture, yet you seem to be hung up on thinking them lost. What makes the United States a bad choice for a home for Ephraim? I know they are scattered throughout the world, yet, in scripture, God does mention that their home will be a pleasant place:

Hosea 9:13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.
14 Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.
15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Ephraim will be placed in a pleasant land, but in these terrible texts, we see that Ephraim's future would not always be pleasant. A warrior tribe, still, they would be envolved in foreign wars. Many of their children would die unborn. That would appear to either be abortion or miscarriage. So who and where are they?

The last heard of Ephraim was when they were taken captive into Assyria. Samaria, the capital of Israel, fell in 722BC. But the major captivity took place about two years earlier, about 724BC. Hosea states, Ephraim is mixed with the nations," and his book was written just before the fall of Samaria. Could 724BC be when Revelation's "time, times, and half a time" began? If so, then this time should lead us to a significant year in the history of Ephraim.

2500 - 724BC = 1776AD....the United States becomes a nation!

Have we seen a temporary regathering of the ten lost tribes here in America? Is America the pleasant land where Ephraim is planted, and could the people who come from all over the world to seek freedom from tyranny and religious persecutions be made up of descendants of those missing tribes? It looks likely to me.
 
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Rafael

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I also found a quote from Josephus' "War on the Jews" that identified at least one general that desecrated the temple:

Book 6 - Chapt.6 - Sec. 1
"The Romans planted their eagles on the shapeless ruins, over against the eastern gate, offered their sacrifices to them, and proclaimed Titus Imperator with the greatest acclamations of Joy."
 
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Crusader

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Now Ephraim has not been lost to God, and you see He promises to restore Ephraim and Judah in scripture, yet you seem to be hung up on thinking them lost.

Raphe, I suppose I see these prophesies meaning that the boarders and the land of Israel will be one again instead of split in two before the Assyrian invasion and also split into three after the Babylonian captivity. It is no longer Israel and Judah but rather Just Israel although they are all from the tribes of Judah , Benjamin or Levi.

The other tribes are lost to the world Raphe, they may not be lost to god because nothing is lost to god but they are lost to the world in modern day.

What makes the United States a bad choice for a home for Ephraim? I know they are scattered throughout the world, yet, in scripture, God does mention that their home will be a pleasant place:

It doesn’t take much history to understand the descendants of those who migrated to America Raphe??? These were Europeans and they were from the 10 Germanic (barbarian) tribes that consumed the roman empire and settled in Europe along with a lot of Celtic blood.

So, we have the Anglo Saxons (British), the Irish (Celtics) the franks (French) and the Spanish which was a mix between the Germanic Visigoths or the Islamic moorish tribes.

So far, these tribes are not linked to the lost tribes of Israel. There are the Italians and they are a mix of roman and Germanic blood but no Israelite there.

Have we seen a temporary regathering of the ten lost tribes here in America? Is America the pleasant land where Ephraim is planted, and could the people who come from all over the world to seek freedom from tyranny and religious persecutions be made up of descendants of those missing tribes? It looks likely to me.

There are the red American Indians but other than that, I can’t think of any American immigrant that doesn’t already have a clear blood line and back ground to show they aren’t Israelite.

Can you at least see that there is no known Ephraimite that I know of???

Can you find me an ephriumite in today’s world?? Especially one living in Israel.

I don’t mean to chase you up on this mate but I do find it interesting that the bible does say what you are saying although I can’t find were this Ephraimite tribe could possibly existed except in the Assyrian areas??? I do have a good understanding of genealogy and history and would be more than happy to be able to identify with this but I haven’t been able to see anyone in the US that doesn’t already have a shore background.
 
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Rafael

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It's okay to disagree, sir, but surely you can't think that they would stay just around Israel and the Middle East. Many of those Europeans have existed with Jews for hundreds of years, but that isn't really the point.
God said they were mixed into the populations and absorbed into them - not even knowing who they were - a Loammi - not my people, which again, Hosea speaks of them being (read 1st chapter). The children born of Gomer were the examples of Israels sins against God.....Remember, Gomer was the protitute Hosea was instructed to marry by God and their sons were to depict the punishment He would soon mete out to Ephraim.
Jezreel comes from two word: zera - seed, used in the agrcultural sense to sow, to scatter; and El, one of the names of God. This name speaks of the entire agricultural process: scattering of the seed, its being hidden in the ground, its death and rebirth, its coming forth in a new more beautiful / useful form, and finally, its harvest.
Jezreel: El will scatter - El will sow. The name indicated Ephraim's destiny. It foretells a beginning punishment and a blessed end.
The second child was name LoRuhamah: No Compassion; No Mercy. This child was named so because the Father could no longer have pity on the Ephraimites - to do so would be to wink at sin. He had to correct them.
LoAmmi: Not my people. The third child's name well describes their coming penalty. The father would scatter them and for a while they would not be His people - lost and absorbed into the world, and as you reckon not findable by geneology of men. They were swallowed by the nations - hidden for a while, to revealed, again, at a later time.

Hosea 8:8 Thus Israel is swallowed up; they are now among the nations like a vessel in which no one delights.
(remember, in the church we are to be vessels of God's Spirit)

They become LoAmmi/Not a people. Their hallmark being that they were not Yahvehs people, which is to say they were like any other Gentile nation.

Amos 9:9 I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations.
Those not a people would be found everywhere.

So where is this huge tribe that is supposed to be mighty, and why is it hard to believe that God would gather them together again and give them a name and inheritance through His Son's name - Jesus? Not really that hard.

God promises to restore them and gatter them gain.

Yet the number of the sons of Israel will be like the sands of the sea, which cannot be measured by number; and in place were it is said to them, 'You are not my people,' it will be said to them, 'You are the sons of the living God'" (Hosea 1:10)

Now does "sons of the living God" sound like a familiar term used in our day? Ephraim is the Church of Jesus - not just in America, but a large part, which has the trait of the powerful warrior tribe that Ephraim is, and has such a noisy insistant witness towards their God, the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

A. Ephraim would become a melo ha'goyim, a fullness of Gentile nations
B. They would be scattered, and regathered from all nations.
C. They would experience a second birth(Jezreel: born anew) by which once more they would become known as "Israel".
D. They would be like the sands of the sea in number.
E. One of their names would be Sons of the Living God.
F. They would proclaim to their brothers news of the great mercy of God.
Hosea 2:23 I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will ahve mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say thou art my God"
Remember, also, that God wanted to hide the woman Israel from the dragon in Revelations, and He did a pretty good job of it. Looks like a plan to me.
 
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Rafael

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Crusader said:
There are the red American Indians but other than that, I can’t think of any American immigrant that doesn’t already have a clear blood line and back ground to show they aren’t Israelite.

I don’t mean to chase you up on this mate but I do find it interesting that the bible does say what you are saying although I can’t find were this Ephraimite tribe could possibly existed except in the Assyrian areas??? I do have a good understanding of genealogy and history and would be more than happy to be able to identify with this but I haven’t been able to see anyone in the US that doesn’t already have a shore background.

I don't think your chasing me, you just don't understand that it was supposed to be a hidden thing until the last days which actually began with Jesus at the cross, as the Apostles talked of being in the last days.

The Indian population of America is so small, that it is almost an embarassment to our history. America's population is the world's mixture, and from the previous post of mine. which I'm not really that good at presenting things, I tried to show that even you might be blood related to the tribe of Ephraim or Mannaseh and not even know it. Do you or do most people know how far back their families go? Abraham wasn't a Jew nor Isaac or Jacob, yet so many people forget that Israel is, and has to be the two houses put together or God would not have rpeated over and over that He would them restored together. This is also an end-time sign which is happening right now - being revealed, you could say, this instant if your open to it. Why is it important to know who Israel is? God made it important in His word.

Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Why was I blind to the significance of these things till now? I never noticed that the covenant was to Israel and Judah, before or that God would make them one in His hand, again. I've only began considering this in the last couple of weeks, and it has opened up prophecy to me in a way that wasn't before. I'm seeking these things out again and want to know.
 
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Crusader

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Sorry this is so long Raphe, I just wanted to try to sought this out because I still can‘t see Ephraim in all this although I do see it biblically.

why is it hard to believe that God would gather them together again and give them a name and inheritance through His Son's name - Jesus? Not really that hard.

Maybe this could happen in the resurrection from the dead but how does it happen today?? Those in Israel today are Jews and not Ephraimites, so , were is this hidden tribe??
Are they to be revealed in the future raphe because god has not revealed them yet??

God promises to restore them and gather them again.

We have seen god gather the Jews and bring them back to a land called Israel, not Judea. I have seen no other tribes return bar these Jews that were among the other nations.
I am just wondering if this is what god meant, in establishing the boarders of Judah and Ephraim and calling those boarders Israel again, instead of Israel and Judah, hence the boarder problems between Judah and Ephraim that were happening at the time of this prophesy, have been removed and the boarders of Israel are one again and I believe they will be totally restored to the boarders of Israel in Solomon’s time.

Ephraim is the Church of Jesus - not just in America, but a large part, which has the trait of the powerful warrior tribe that Ephraim is, and has such a noisy insistent witness towards their God, the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I have to disagree hear again mate because as Said before, Jesus is a “JEW” and the lion of the tribe of Judah and therefore we Christians are Jews through Jesus from the tribe of Judah. I can’t see any links to Ephraim there.

This is my main point Raphe;

I see the scriptures that your putting forth and I agree with your interpretations for the most part although I can not see any sign of a tribe of Ephraim in today’s world. I have seen god return the Jews but were are these Ephriamites?? They have not returned yet and we have no sign that they will. If god has them hidden and he intends to return them, then it would have to be in the future because it isn’t happening yet and hasn’t happened.

This is were my interpretation clashes with yours;

I tend to think that the return of the Jews and the enmity departing between the two is most likely that the boarders of Israel will be one under the banner of Israel, which means Gods chosen people. Maybe it has something to with the boarders because I simply can’t see any sign of Ephraim in today’s world and I would have thought God would have returned them with the Jews considering that is what the prophesy indicates although that isn’t “exactly” how it happened , so, maybe it is referring to the separation between the two being done away with by Judea being called Israel and Judah being given back the land of Israel.


Abraham wasn't a Jew nor Isaac or Jacob, yet so many people forget that Israel is, and has to be the two houses put together or God would not have repeated over and over that He would them restored together. This is also an end-time sign which is happening right now - being revealed, you could say, this instant if your open to it.

Why is it important to know who Israel is? God made it important in His word.

I would be open to it because I am already open to the fact that it is god who has returned Judah and established the boarders of Israel again. Hear is the catch, hear is my problem Raphe. If what you are saying is true and they are being returned together right now, then how come they are all Jews that are returning and none of them claim to be anything but from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi?? So were are these Ephriamites if it is and has been happening at the same time as god bringing home the Jews???

There is still no physical evidence of Ephraim being returned to the boarders of Israel.
Even if, as you say, I am linked to one of the tribes of Israel, were, when and how does god reveal that to me and cause me to return to the land of Israel??

Do you see where I am coming from mate??
Besides, I know I am not of those tribes because I know a good part of my ancestry and I come from the Celtics and the Anglo-Saxons.
The Celts make up a big part of America. I do not believe the Celts have any link to Israel because of there religious practices for a start.
The European Genealogies that exist in the US are mostly from the Germanic tribes which were also not Israelites.
I don’t assume they are around middle eastern parts but rather I assume they are extinct and lost to us and if these prophesies have the interpretations that your saying, concerning god returning Ephraim with Judah , then there is something wrong because this didn’t happen and hasn’t happened?? The Ephriamites didn’t and haven’t returned to Israel with Judah, so I am questioning the interpretation of these prophesies and the only thing I can come up with is as I said above concerning the boarders of Ephraim and Judah being removed and the land being united again under the banner of Israel.



Remember, also, that God wanted to hide the woman Israel from the dragon in Revelations, and He did a pretty good job of it. Looks like a plan to me.

Revelations can be a hard book for me to understand at the best of times. It’s a very symbolic book
This is how I see it.
In the first place, the coming of Christ to destroy Satan is spoken of. I will put enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head and thou salt bruise his heal. Hear, we have the woman from whom Christ should be born, Christ himself her seed and Satan his enemy. I figure the 3 and a half years that Jesus was hidden is the 3 and a half years he fled into the wilderness after herod came after him to kill every baby in Bethlehem and Mary and Joseph fled into the wilderness until herod died soon after.
Don’t misunderstand me, I know the prophesy is about Israel although it was the seed of the woman that was caught up to god, this is Christ and the woman has to be the woman that gave birth to the seed which is Mary at this point, even though the woman as a whole is Israel.
I don't see this however as Isreal being hidden in 722 BC. That shorely is not what it is saying hear??

that’s just my view although revelations can seem to be seen numerous ways.
 
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Rafael

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God said he would make them a non-people as far as He was concerned, but then turned around and said He would make them Sons of the Living God. Yes, that is paradoxical, but I'm starting to see why there are so many scriptures written to Ephraim, who He calls His "first born" through the prophet Jeremiah. I'm sorry I wasn't able to do a better job and put it to you in a more understandable way;

Jeremiah 31:9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Check this link: http://www.messianichome.org/Articles/1999/summer/loamminotapeople.htm?

Maybe this one too: http://www.messianicyisrael.com/Chumney_2HouseNT.html
 
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