Jehovah, Jesus and being Beings

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Serapha

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btony said:
Since the Colossians 1:15 debate is basically concluded, with no points of interest now being provided, I though it might be interested in considering a new topic. This one is in regards to Jesus and God each being a Being, in opposition to the Trinitarian view of them being one being.

It is interesting to note how Jesus, in his existence, relates to God. The author of Hebrews relates this to us very clearly.
Hebrews 1:3 who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His being, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,

They key words in our discussion come from what is here translated as “the express image of His essence,” or as Beck puts it, “the copy of His being.” The word here translated as “copy” or “express image” is the noun CARAKTHR. For this word, BDAG explains[1] that it is “someth[ing] produced as a representation, reproduction, representation… Christ is car. th/j u`posta,sewj auvtou/ anexact representation of (God’s) real being Hb 1:3 (u`po,stasij1a).”

The second word we consider simply what is translated as “being” or “essence”, UPOSTASIS. This is extremely significant in that the Trinity doctrine has the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being a single being or essence, a single UPOSTASIS. Yet, what does Hebrews 1:3 tell us?

We have found here that Jesus is produced as a representation, a copy or reproduction of God’s being. The Interpreter’s Bible explains[2], “It suggests a faithful, and indeed a detailed, reproduction of the nature of God.” As a reproduction of such, is he then the same being? Obviously not, for we have the reproduction and the original. That is two beings. Further, the nature of a reproduction is that it itself comes after the original, perfectly representing the original as Jesus does the Father, thus providing a temporal distinction between the two, removing any possibility of the claimed co-eternality between Jesus and the Father.

Could this be in reference to Jesus becoming a man? Not at all, because God’s nature was not reproduced according to Trintiarian theology, but that nature took a second nature, becoming flesh. The nature was never reproduced. Yet Hebrews 1:3 tells us that it was! Clearly, this can only be a reference to Christ’s creation.


[1] BDAG, p 1078.


[2] The Interpreter’s Bible, Volume XI, p 601.


-Tony
Hi there!

:wave:


Well, let's start with the verse you cited...

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

They key words in our discussion come from what is here translated as “the express image of His essence,” or as Beck puts it, “the copy of His being.” The word here translated as “copy” or “express image” is the noun CARAKTHR. For this word, BDAG explains[1] that it is “someth[ing] produced as a representation, reproduction, representation… Christ is car. th/j u`posta,sewj auvtou/ anexact representation of (God’s) real being Hb 1:3 (u`po,stasij1a).”
Oh, let's just look at the whole verse in Greek... and let's add in the interlinear...

who being [the] radiance of the glory and
oV wn apaugasma thV doxhV kai


[size=+0][the] representation of the reality of him, [/size]
carakthr thV upostasewV autou,


[size=+0]and bearing - all things by the word of the power [/size]
ferwn te ta panta tw rhmati thV dunamewV


of him cleansing - of sins having made
autou, kaqarismon twn amartiwn poihsamenoV


[size=+0]sat on [the] right [hand] of the greatness [/size]
ekaqisen en dexia thV megalwsunhV
[size=+0][/size]
in high places,
en uyhloiV,





CARAKTHR. equates to this.... carakthr (representation)

well, we are losing our agreement quickly here...



I like Robertson's....

Carakthr is an old word from carassw, to cut, to scratch, to mark. It first was the agent (note ending =thr) or tool that did the marking, then the mark or impress made, the exact reproduction, a meaning clearly expressed by caragma (Acts 17:29; Revelation 13:16). Menander had already used (Moffatt) carakthr in the sense of our "character." The word occurs in the inscriptions for "person" as well as for "exact reproduction" of a person.


Is Roberson saying that carakthr could possibly mean "person" and not "exact reproduction" when the term means "representation"?????



The second word we consider simply what is translated as “being” or “essence”, UPOSTASIS. This is extremely significant in that the Trinity doctrine has the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being a single being or essence, a single UPOSTASIS. Yet, what does Hebrews 1:3 tell us?
We have found here that Jesus is produced as a representation, a copy or reproduction of God’s being.







UPOSTASIS equates to upostasewV (reality)



And let's look at Roberson's interpreation again...




The word upostasiß for the being or essence of God "is a philosophical rather than a religious term" Etymologically it is the sediment or foundation under a building (for instance). In Hebrews 1:1 ypostasiß is like the "title-deed" idea found in the papyri.

and I really, really, always, always love John Gill's commentary.


And the express image of his person;
this intends much the same as the other phrase; namely, equality and sameness of nature, and distinction of persons; for if the Father is God, Christ must be so too; and if he is a person, his Son must be so likewise, or he cannot be the express image and character of him;



You know... I think that Robertson and John Gill agree.... the appropriate word is "person" and not "exact reproduction".


The Interpreter’s Bible explains[2], “It suggests a faithful, and indeed a detailed, reproduction of the nature of God.” As a reproduction of such, is he then the same being? Obviously not, for we have the reproduction and the original. That is two beings. Further, the nature of a reproduction is that it itself comes after the original, perfectly representing the original as Jesus does the Father, thus providing a temporal distinction between the two, removing any possibility of the claimed co-eternality between Jesus and the Father.

Could this be in reference to Jesus becoming a man? Not at all, because God’s nature was not reproduced according to Trintiarian theology, but that nature took a second nature, becoming flesh. The nature was never reproduced. Yet Hebrews 1:3 tells us that it was! Clearly, this can only be a reference to Christ’s creation.
It appears to me that there is no indication that the actual texts reflects that anything was "created" or "reproduced".... but the "person" is the "foundation".... of what... well

the same word is used in Hebrews 1:1...

(again, Robertson's)


[size=+0]upostasiß). Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from upisthmi (upo, under, isthmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, M‚n‚goz) in 1 Thessalonians 3:14, that steadiness of mind which holds one firm (2 Corinthians 9:4). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. "And as this is the essential meaning in Hebrews 11:1 we venture to suggest the translation 'Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for'" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).[/size]





So... the "person" is the "title-deed"... not just a representative of the ower by law.... but the real thing.





Tony, I'm just learning Greek... but I think that Old Shephard knows Greek, if you want to ask him if I said anything wrong here... it won't bother me a bit.






~serapha~

 
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btony

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:


Well, let's start with the verse you cited...

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Oh, let's just look at the whole verse in Greek... and let's add in the interlinear...

who being [the] radiance of the glory and
oV wn apaugasma thV doxhV kai


[size=+0][the] representation of the reality of him, [/size]
carakthr thV upostasewV autou,


[size=+0]and bearing - all things by the word of the power [/size]
ferwn te ta panta tw rhmati thV dunamewV


of him cleansing - of sins having made
autou, kaqarismon twn amartiwn poihsamenoV


[size=+0]sat on [the] right [hand] of the greatness [/size]
ekaqisen en dexia thV megalwsunhV
[size=+0][/size]
in high places,
en uyhloiV,





CARAKTHR. equates to this.... carakthr (representation)

well, we are losing our agreement quickly here...



I like Robertson's....

Carakthr is an old word from carassw, to cut, to scratch, to mark. It first was the agent (note ending =thr) or tool that did the marking, then the mark or impress made, the exact reproduction, a meaning clearly expressed by caragma (Acts 17:29; Revelation 13:16). Menander had already used (Moffatt) carakthr in the sense of our "character." The word occurs in the inscriptions for "person" as well as for "exact reproduction" of a person.


Is Roberson saying that carakthr could possibly mean "person" and not "exact reproduction" when the term means "representation"?????


The word for person is PROSWPON. A CARAKTHR is typically not even a person, it is a thing. The stamp or the stamping of an image. The term was used when wax would be used to seal something, and then the stamp would impress itself onto the wax, making the identical form in the wax, the CARAKTHR.

Roberton's application for person is related to the CARAKTHR being either the tool or the impress itself. The CARAKTHR could be the person, or it could be the reproduction of the person. You are mistaken in your application of "person" as a meaning of CARAKTHR, for you will not find any lexical evidence to support that position.



UPOSTASIS equates to upostasewV (reality)



And let's look at Roberson's interpreation again...




The word upostasiß for the being or essence of God "is a philosophical rather than a religious term" Etymologically it is the sediment or foundation under a building (for instance). In Hebrews 1:1 ypostasiß is like the "title-deed" idea found in the papyri.

and I really, really, always, always love John Gill's commentary.


And the express image of his person;
this intends much the same as the other phrase; namely, equality and sameness of nature, and distinction of persons; for if the Father is God, Christ must be so too; and if he is a person, his Son must be so likewise, or he cannot be the express image and character of him;



You know... I think that Robertson and John Gill agree.... the appropriate word is "person" and not "exact reproduction".
Not at all. Rather, Gill is going by the KJV, which mistranslates hUPOSTASIS as person (not CARAKTHR) rather than the appropriate being, which lexicons and modern translations provide. Again though, I remind you that CARAKTHR is the word for being or substance, not person, as that word is PROSWPON.

It appears to me that there is no indication that the actual texts reflects that anything was "created" or "reproduced".... but the "person" is the "foundation".... of what... well

the same word is used in Hebrews 1:1...

(again, Robertson's)


[size=+0]upostasiß). Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from upisthmi (upo, under, isthmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, M‚n‚goz) in 1 Thessalonians 3:14, that steadiness of mind which holds one firm (2 Corinthians 9:4). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. "And as this is the essential meaning in Hebrews 11:1 we venture to suggest the translation 'Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for'" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).[/size]



So... the "person" is the "title-deed"... not just a representative of the ower by law.... but the real thing.
Actually, Robertson is say that the word that it comes from hUPISQIM means those things. Read a bit more carefully. There is no lexical evidence to support both your definition of CARAKTHR and hUPOSTASIS. The following demonstrates that.

Liddell and Scott:
ca±rakth,r​
, h/roj( o`, (cara,ssw) a mark engraved or impressed, the impress or stamp on coins and seals, Eur.; euvdoxi,aj carakth/ra toi/j e;rgoij evpe,balen set a stamp of good repute upon them, Isocr.
2.​
metaph. the mark impressed (as it were) on a person or thing, a distinctive mark, characteristic, character, cÅ glw,sshj of a particular language or dialect, Hdt.; of persons, o` cÅ tou/ prosw,pou Id.; avndrw/n ouvdei.j cÅ evmpe,fuke sw,mati no outward mark has been set by nature on the person of men, Eur.; fanero.j cÅ avreta/j Id.


Friberg:
carakth,r​
, h/roj, o` originally engraver or engraving tool; used figuratively in the NT of Christ in relation to God exact representation, precise reproduction, impress (HE 1.3)
Louw and Nida:
carakth,r​
, h/roj, o` originally engraver or engraving tool; used figuratively in the NT of Christ in relation to God exact representation, precise reproduction, impress (HE 1.3)
BDAG:
• carakth,r, h/roj, o` (fr. cara,ssw ‘engrave’ via ca,ragma; Aeschyl., Hdt.+; ins, pap, LXX; TestSol 11:6; TestSim 5:4 [‘copy’, of the Book of Enoch]; ApcSed 7:4; EpArist; Philo; Jos., Ant. 13, 322; Just.; Tat. 17, 2 [in the two last, of letters of the alphabet]; loanw. in rabb.).

1​
. a mark or impression placed on an object


a.​
of coinage impress, reproduction, representation (Eur., El. 559; Aristot., Pol. 1, 6, Oec. 2; Diod. S. 17, 66, 2; OGI 339, 45; in imagery Polyb. 18, 34, 7; Philo, Plant. 18) in imagery IMg 5:2ab.

b.​
of a distinguishing mark trademark to. kefalode,smion … carakth/ra e;cei basiliko,n the headpiece bears a royal trademark (i.e. the logo of a manufacturer for the imperial establishment; s. deStrycker ad loc. and AJohnson, Roman Egypt to the Reign of Diocletian ’36, 332-33; 626-27) GJs 2:2. S. 3 below.

2​
. someth. produced as a representation, reproduction, representation, fig., of God a;nqrwpon e;plasen th/j e`autou/ eivko,noj carakth/ra (God) formed a human being as reproduction of his own identity/reality (s. eivkw,n 2) 1 Cl 33:4 (cp. OGI 383, 60 of a picture c. morfh/j evmh/j; 404, 25; Philo, Det. Pot. Ins. 83 calls the soul tu,pon tina. kai. carakth/ra qei,aj duna,mewj). Christ is car. th/j u`posta,sewj auvtou/ an exact representation of (God’s) real being Hb 1:3 (u`po,stasij 1a).

3​
. characteristic trait or manner, distinctive mark (Hdt. et al.; Diod. S. 1, 91, 7; Dionys. Hal., Ad Pomp. 3, 16; 2 Macc 4:10) evn avpostolikw/| carakth/ri in apostolic fashion of an epistolary greeting ITr ins; cp. 1b above.

4​
. an impression that is made, outward aspect, outward appearance, form (ApcSed 7:4 o` de. h[lioj kai. VAda,m, mi,an carakth/ra h=san perh. read without the comma: ‘Now, the sun and Adam were alike in appearance’, in contrast to Eve who was more brightly beautiful than the moon) euveide,statai tw/| carakth/ri exceptionally beautiful in appearance Hs 9, 9, 5.—JGef***en, Character: ET 21, 1910, 426f; AKörte, Her 64, 1929, 69-86 (semantic history).—DELG s.v. cara,ssw II 4. M-M. TW. Sv.
Thayer:
carakth,r​
, carakthroj, o` (cara,ssw to engrave, cut into), from Aeschylus and Herodotus down;

1.​
properly, the instrument used in engraving or carving (cf. zwsth,r, lampth,r, louth,r, fushth,r; cf. our `stamp' or `die').

2.​
the mark (figure or letters) stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it; hence, universally, "a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression; the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect" (cf. facsimile): carakth,r th/j u`posta,sewj tou/ Qeou/, of Christ, accusative to his nature as o` qei/oj lo,goj, Heb. 1:3; sfragi/di Qeou/, h-j o` carakth,r evstin o` avi<dioj lo,goj, Philo de plant. Noë sec. 5; carakth,r qei,aj duna,mewj, of the human mind, Philo, quod det. potiori ins. sec. 23; God to,n a;nqrwpon e;plasen th/j e`autou/ evkonoj carakth/ra, Clement of Rome, 1 Cor. 33,4; oi` pistoi, evn avga,ph carakth/ra Qeou/ patro,j dia, VIhsou/ Cristou/ (e;cousin), Ignatius ad Magnes. 5, 2. the peculiarity, by which things are recognized and distinguished from each other (cf. English characteristic): 2 Macc. 4:10.*​
continued...​
 
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btony

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hUPOSTASIS

BDAG:
u`po,stasij​
, ewj, h` (u`fi,sthmi; Hippocr.+; Polyb. 4, 50, 10; 6, 55, 2; Diod. S. 16, 32, 3; 16, 33, 1; M. Ant. 10, 5; ins, pap, LXX; PsSol 15:5; 17:24; TestReub 2:7; TestZeb 2:4; Tat.; Ath. 21, 3; Iren. 5, 36, 1 [Harv. II 426, 1]; Hippol., Ref. 10, 17, 2; Did., Gen. 128, 11 in widely different meanings. See Dörrie 4 below.)

1​
. the essential or basic structure/nature of an entity, substantial nature, essence, actual being, reality (underlying structure, oft. in contrast to what merely seems to be: Ps.-Aristot., De Mundo 4 p. 395a, 29f; Plut., Mor. 894b; Diog. L., Pyrrh. 9, 91; Artem. 3, 14; Ps 38:6; Wsd 16:21; TestReub 2:7; SJCh 78, 30; Philo, Aet. M. 88; 92; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 1; Tat. 6, 2; Ath. 21, 3; cp. the answer of a certain Secundus, who, when asked ‘Quid fides?’, answered: ‘ignotae rei mira certitudo’=a marvelous certainty about someth. otherwise unknown [FPhGr I 516]; s. also Lexicon Sabbaiticum: Lexica Graeca Minora ’65, 53)

a.​
of the Son of God as carakth.r th/j u`posta,sewj auvtou/ a(n) exact representation of (God’s) real being (i.e. as one who is in charge of the universe) Hb 1:3. Sim. of polytheists’ deities, whose basic reality is someth. material like stone, metal etc. Dg 2:1.

b.​
of things: among the meanings that can be authenticated for Hb 11:1 a strong claim can be made for realization (Diod. S. 1, 3, 2 of the realization of a plan; Cornutus 9 p. 9, 3 of the realization of humanity; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 1 that of the Jewish people, both by a divine act; Tat. 5, 1 of God tou/ panto.j h` u`po,stasij): e;stin pi,stij evlpizome,nwn u`p.=in faith things hoped for become realized, or things hoped for take on (but s. 3 and 4 below) reality. Conversely, ‘without faith things hoped for would have no reality’. HKöster (s. bibliog. 4 below) argues for this sense also in 3:14, but s. 2. Cp. the rendering ‘substance’ (e.g. KJV, REB).

2​
. a plan that one devises for action, plan, project, undertaking, endeavor (Diod. Sic 15, 70, 2; 16, 32, 3; 16, 82, 6; 17, 69, 7; Ezk 19:5) evn th/| u`posta,sei tau,th| in connection with this undertaking i.e. the collection for Jerusalem 2 Cor 9:4. The fact that meeting a financial obligation is the main theme (vss. 1-2) might well suggest association of u`p. with its use e.g. as a t.t. of expectation of rent due PTebt 61b, 194. To emphasize the importance of steadfast commitment to professed obligation (opp. kardi,a ponhra. avpisti,aj evn tw/| avposth/nai), the author of Hb 3:14 uses u`p. in a way that invites an addressee to draw on the semantic component of obligation familiar in commercial usage of the term (s. PTebt above), an association that is invited by use of me,tocoj, a standard term for a business partner (PHib 109, 3; PCairZen 176, 102 [both III BC]), me,cri te,louj (s.v. te,loj 2bb), and be,baioj (s. M-M s.v.). S. Köster 1b above for focus of u`p. on ‘reality’.—Satirically, evn tau,th| th/| u`posta,sei th/j kauch,sewj in this boasting project of mine 2 Cor 11:17.


3​
. The interp. situation, condition (Cicero, Ad Attic. 2, 3, 3 u`po,stasin nostram=our situation), also specif. frame of mind (Dio Cass. 49, 9; Themist., Or. 13 p. 178b; Jos., Ant. 18, 24 of determination in desperate circumstances; sim. Polyb. 6, 55, 2) has been suggested for some of the passages cited in 1 and 2 above: 2 Cor 9:4 (explained in a v.l. via the epexegetical gen. kauch,sewj); 11:17; Hb 3:14 (s. Dörrie [bibliog. 4 below], p. 39: the frame of mind described in Hb 3:6). The sense ‘confidence’, ‘assurance’ (based on LXX [Ruth 1:12; Ps 38:8; Ezk 19:5], where it renders hw"q.Ti etc.) favored by Melanchthon and Luther (also Tyndale, NRSV, but not KJV) for Hb 11:1 has enjoyed much favor but must be eliminated, since examples of it cannot be found (s. Dörrie and Köster [4 below]). More prob. for Hb 4:11 is

4​
. guarantee of ownership/entitlement, title deed (Sb 9086 III, 1-11 [104 AD]; Spicq III 423 n. 14; cp. M-M s.v.) Hb 11:1 (cp. 2 above for commercial use of u[p.).—ASchlatter, Der Glaube im NT4 1927, 614ff; MMathis, The Pauline pi,stij-u`po,stasij acc. to Hb 11:1, diss. Cath. Univ. of Amer., Washington, D.C. 1920, also Biblica 3, 1922, 79-87; RWitt, Hypostasis: ‘Amicitiae Corolla’ (RHarris Festschr.) ’33, 319-43; MSchumpp, D. Glaubensbegriff des Hb: Divus Thomas 11, ’34, 397-410; FErdin, D. Wort Hypostasis, diss. Freiburg ’39; CArpe, Philologus 94, ’41, 65-78; HDörrie, ~Upo,stasij, Wort- u. Bedeutungsgeschichte: NAWG 1955, no. 3, ZNW 46, ’55, 196-202; HKöster, TW VIII 571-88 (Köster prefers plan, project [Vorhaben] for the passages in 2 Cor, and reality [Wirklichkeit] for all 3 occurrences in Hb, contrasting the reality of God with the transitory character of the visible world). S. also the lit. s.v. pi,stij 2a.—DELG s.v. i[sthmi. M-M. EDNT. TW. Spicq. Sv.



Thayer:
u`po,stasij​
, u`posta,sewj, h` (u`fi,sthmi), a word very common in Greek authors, especially from Aristotle onward, in widely different senses, of which only those will be noticed which serve to illustrate N. T. usage;

1.​
a setting or placing under; thing put under, substructure, foundation: Ps. 68:3 (Ps. 69:3); tou/ oi;kou, Ezek. 43:11; tou/ ta,fou, Diodorus 1, 66.

2.​
that which has foundation, is firm; hence, a. that which has actual existence; a substance, real being: tw/n evn averi fantasma,twn ta, me,n evsti katV evmfasin, ta, de, kaqV u`po,stasin, Aristotle, de mundo, 4, 19, p. 395{a}, 30; fantasi,an me,n e;cein plou,tou, u`po,stasin de, mh,, Artemidorus Daldianus, oneir. 3, 14; (h` auvgh,) u`po,stasin ivdi,an ouvk e;cei, genna/tai de, evk flogo,j, Philo de incorruptibil. mundi sec. 18; similarly in other writings (cf. Sophocles' Lexicon, under the word, 5; Liddell and Scott, under the word, III. 2). b. the substantial quality, nature, of any person or thing: tou/ Qeou/ (R. V. substance), Heb. 1:3 (Sap. 16:21; i;de ... ti,noj u`posta,sewj h; ti,noj ei;douj tugca,nousin ou[j evrei/te kai, nomizete Qeou,j, Epist. ad' Diogn. 2, 1; (cf. Suicer, Thesaurus, under the word)). c. steadiness of mind, firmness, courage resolution (oi` de, ~Ro,dioi qewrou/ntej th,n to,n Buzantinwn u`po,stasin, Polybius 4, 50, 10; ouvc ou[tw th,n du,namin, w`j th,n u`po,stasin auvtou/ kai, tolma/n katapeplhgmenwn tw/n evnanti,wn, id. 6, 55, 2; add, Diodorus 16, 32f; Josephus, Antiquities 18, 1 6); confidence, firm trust, assurance: 2 Cor. 9:4; 11:17; Heb. 3:14; 11:1 (for hw"q.Ti, Ruth 1:12; Ezek. 19:5; for tl,x,AT, Ps. 38:8 (Ps. 39:8)). Cf. Bleek, Br. an d. Hebrew ii. 1, pp. 60ff, 462ff; Schlatter, Glaube im N. T., p. 581.*
Friberg:
u`po,stasij​
, ewj, h` as the objective aspect and underlying reality behind anything, with the specific meaning derived from the context; (1) as an undertaking plan, project (2C 9.4); (2) as God's substantial nature real being, essence (HE 1.3); (3) as the objective reality that gives a firm guarantee and basis for confidence or assurance substance, ground of hope, foundation (HE 3.14; 11.1)
Louw and Nida:

u`po,stasij​
, ewj, h` as the objective aspect and underlying reality behind anything, with the specific meaning derived from the context; (1) as an undertaking plan, project (2C 9.4); (2) as God's substantial nature real being, essence (HE 1.3); (3) as the objective reality that gives a firm guarantee and basis for confidence or assurance substance, ground of hope, foundation (HE 3.14; 11.1)
Liddell and Scott

u`po,sta±sij​
, ewj( h`, (u`fi,stamai) that which settles at the bottom, sediment, Arist.
II.​
anything set under, subject-matter of a speech or poem, Polyb., etc.
2.​
the foundation or ground of hope, confidence, assurance, N.T.
III.​
substance, the real nature of a thing, essence, Ib.​


Tony, I'm just learning Greek... but I think that Old Shephard knows Greek, if you want to ask him if I said anything wrong here... it won't bother me a bit.


~serapha~
That is good. If you ever have any Greek questions, feel free to ask and I'll be happy to help you out with them.

Having said that, your argument is simply without backing. The lexical data is completely on my side, especially noting the glosses that the lexicons provide for the use at Hebrews 1:3. It is very clear.

-Tony
 
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Serapha

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Hi there!

:wave:


The word for person is PROSWPON. A CARAKTHR is typically not even a person, it is a thing. The stamp or the stamping of an image. The term was used when wax would be used to seal something, and then the stamp would impress itself onto the wax, making the identical form in the wax, the CARAKTHR.

Roberton's application for person is related to the CARAKTHR being either the tool or the impress itself. The CARAKTHR could be the person, or it could be the reproduction of the person. You are mistaken in your application of "person" as a meaning of CARAKTHR, for you will not find any lexical evidence to support that position.

Excuse me if I take the word of one of the most well-known Greek scholars over your personal interpretation. And, it isn't my application of "person"

The CARAKTHR could be the person, or it could be the reproduction of the person.



okay.... I take "person".


~serapha~



 
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Serapha

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Hi there!

:wave:



Not at all. Rather, Gill is going by the KJV, which mistranslates hUPOSTASIS as person (not CARAKTHR) rather than the appropriate being, which lexicons and modern translations provide. Again though, I remind you that CARAKTHR is the word for being or substance, not person, as that word is PROSWPON.

Well, again, you are entitled to your opinion, but I'll stick with the proven scholars.

Again, you can rant if you want...


I still say "person" along with Robertson and Gill.


~serapha~
 
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btony

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:




Excuse me if I take the word of one of the most well-known Greek scholars over your personal interpretation. And, it isn't my application of "person"




okay.... I take "person".


~serapha~




Sorry, this is not opinion, but fact. It is a fact that PROSWPON means person, it is a fact that CARAKTHR and hUPOSTASIS do not. Not opinion, but lexical fact. There is NO lexical evidence to support your position and there is no basis for the meaning person. It is not my interpretation, but it is what the words mean. You have misread Robertson, as I pointed out, and I have corrected you, showing what he actually said. No again, please provide lexical evidence to support your position. There is none available however.

-Tony
 
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Serapha

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HI there!

:wave:


Actually, Robertson is say that the word that it comes from hUPISQIM means those things. Read a bit more carefully. There is no lexical evidence to support both your definition of CARAKTHR and hUPOSTASIS. The following demonstrates that.


I don't have to read it more carefully, the same word is used in Hebrews 1:1 as I quoted it.. and in 1:3. I didn't "derive" it as "
hUPISQIM" ... meaning Robertson isn't "stretching" it.



~serapha~


 
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Serapha

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btony said:
There is no lexical evidence to support both your definition of CARAKTHR and hUPOSTASIS. The following demonstrates that.


hmmmmmmmmm....



I think Strong's agrees...


You see, it doesn't HAVE to be the instrument as you indicate....




Word:carakthr charakterPronunciation:khar-ak-tare'Origin:from the same as 5482Source:TDNT - 9:418,1308Kind:n mIn AV:express image 1Count:1Definition: 1) the instrument used for engraving or carving 2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it 2a) a mark or figure burned in (#Le 13:28) or stamped on, an impression 2b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile
Word:

upostasiv hupostasisPronunciation:hoop-os'-tas-isOrigin:from a compound of 5259 and 2476Source:TDNT - 8:572,1237Kind:n fIn AV:confidence 2, confident 1, person 1, substance 1Count:5Definition: 1) a setting or placing under 1a) thing put under, substructure, foundation 2) that which has foundation, is firm 2a) that which has actual existence 2a1) a substance, real being 2b) the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing 2c) the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution 2c1) confidence, firm trust, assurance The real thing!
 
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Serapha

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btony said:
Sorry, this is not opinion, but fact. It is a fact that PROSWPON means person, it is a fact that CARAKTHR and hUPOSTASIS do not. Not opinion, but lexical fact. There is NO lexical evidence to support your position and there is no basis for the meaning person. It is not my interpretation, but it is what the words mean. You have misread Robertson, as I pointed out, and I have corrected you, showing what he actually said. No again, please provide lexical evidence to support your position. There is none available however.

-Tony
Well, be sorry,

I looked at it again... and I still don't see it your way... and Hebrews 1:1 doesn't support what you are saying. Just because there is a word for "person" doesn't mean that the word "person" must be used in every circumstance.... does it?




sorry.


Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

There is only one instance of this phrase (the express image) being used in the Bible, and you have referenced numerous "supporting" usages of the word CARAKTHR in other texts as "authority". If it isn't the same phrase, then it cannot be substantiated by other passages that don't have the same phrase.
Lexicon / Concordance for Hbr 1:3
hUPOSTASIS has five usages in the entire New Testament and you use the argument that no Lexicon support that meaning. Here's the translation of five usages...

confidence 2, confident 1, person 1, substance 1

And you tell me that it's a mistranslation in the King James? On what basis? Because it has to mean "substance" for your argument?


It means "substance" in this instance...

Faith is the "substance" of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1087963944-8238.html


of his person--Greek, "of His substantial essence"; "hypostasis."
"Substantial essence" .... isn't the same as "substance".






~serapha~
 
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Serapha

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btony said:
.

Having said that, your argument is simply without backing. The lexical data is completely on my side, especially noting the glosses that the lexicons provide for the use at Hebrews 1:3. It is very clear.

-Tony​


Hi there!

:wave:

I do have a question concerning the Greek translation of Hebrews 1:3 that maybe you could answer for me?




who being [the] radiance of the glory and
oV wn apaugasma thV doxhV kai


[size=+0][the] representation of the reality of him, [/size]
carakthr thV upostasewV autou,


[size=+0]and bearing - all things by the word of the power [/size]
ferwn te ta panta tw rhmati thV dunamewV


of him cleansing - of sins having made
autou, kaqarismon twn amartiwn poihsamenoV


[size=+0]sat on [the] right [hand] of the greatness [/size]
ekaqisen en dexia thV megalwsunhV
[size=+0][/size]
in high places,
en uyhloiV,


When "hand" is in brackets, that means that it is added for clarity... and not in the actual text. Without that rendering, the passage would read....

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right of the Majesty on high"​

That would seem to go well with the singular throne of God in Heaven which is described in Isaiah and Revelation. If there's only one throne and God the Father is on it...and the Son sits on the right of the Father... where does that mean? See, the passage in Revelation describes the three persons of the trinity on the singular thone of God. It doesn't say there are three seats, but it is referenced as "the throne"... indicating one thone, one seat, one Godhead in three persons... that's unity.


~serapha~
 
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ukok

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mawuvi said:
Don't be surprised if no Trinitarians come along to defend their belief. Most orthordox Christians believe in the Trinity doctrine simply because their priest told them so not because they themselves have studied it or have an idea what the Trinity God is all about. Because of this many shy away from the subject.

I will wait with anticipation on the sidelines to see how this develops
you assume too much as regards how one might come to an understanding and belief in the Blessed Trinity...please don't allow this ignorance to infiltrate the majority of your postings in the same way that anti- Catholicism does. You lose credibility when you make such declarations.
 
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mawuvi

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ukok said:
you assume too much as regards how one might come to an understanding and belief in the Blessed Trinity...please don't allow this ignorance to infiltrate the majority of your postings in the same way that anti- Catholicism does. You lose credibility when you make such declarations.

You are the one assuming too much to think I have not researched how many Christians come to have this belief. Common sense would tell you most people were born into whatever Church they belong to. That being the case common sense would again dictate most of the beliefs these ones have is inherited alongside the adopted faith of their parents.

With regard to being anti Catholic again you assume too much. I live in England and it is the least known Church in the UK so why would I focus on a church I hardly see in my daily life? If you cared to ask anyone from the UK about the Catholic Church you might be surprised at the response. To many of us living here it is a non entity, it does not feature. The main church here in the UK is the COE and the great many charismatic churches. So for you to come to this conclusion that I hold a particular dislike for your church is an assumption on your part, cos I don't have time for it. Then again you are entitled to your assumptions, it does not bother me one way or the other. If I make comments on the Trinity and in some fantastic way you conclude it is an attack on your beloved church, that is your prerogative but don't put those words in my mouth because nowhere in anything I said did I mention the Catholic Church.
 
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ukok

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mawuvi said:
You are the one assuming too much to think I have not researched how many Christians come to have this belief. Common sense would tell you most people were born into whatever Church they belong to. That being the case common sense would again dictate most of the beliefs these ones have is inherited alongside the adopted faith of their parents.
you specifically stated that most orthodox christians learned what the priests told them and did not discover the Blessed Trinity of their own understanding...i don't see whereby i make any assumption.

With regard to being anti Catholic again you assume too much. I live in England and it is the least known Church in the UK so why would I focus on a church I hardly see in my daily life? If you cared to ask anyone from the UK about the Catholic Church you might be surprised at the response. To many of us living here it is a non entity, it does not feature. The main church here in the UK is the COE and the great many charismatic churches.
I live in England. I was formerly an Anglican. I agree that the predominant church is the Anglican church..but that's hardly suprising considering our History, is it ?..remember all the Catholic churches that were knocked down a few hundred years ago ..so yes, it's perfectly commonplace to see C of E churches in every town and village. I am not debating that. what i am debating is that you are in error assuming that all of British Christendom have no personal understanding or appreciation of the Blessed Trinity.


So for you to come to this conclusion that I hold a particular dislike for your church is an assumption on your part, cos I don't have time for it. Then again you are entitled to your assumptions, it does not bother me one way or the other. If I make comments on the Trinity and in some fantastic way you conclude it is an attack on your beloved church, that is your prerogative but don't put those words in my mouth because nowhere in anything I said did I mention the Catholic Church.
no,. i am not assuming you have a dislike of Catholicism, i have seen it in many of your posts..they usually say something like " I was a Catholic for twenty years....".."I was raised a Catholic and then i learned the Truth"....

so you see, i'm not putting words in any ones mouth, you are doing a very good job of it all by yourself :)
 
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mawuvi

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ukok said:
no,. i am not assuming you have a dislike of Catholicism, i have seen it in many of your posts..they usually say something like " I was a Catholic for twenty years....".."I was raised a Catholic and then i learned the Truth"....

so you see, i'm not putting words in any ones mouth, you are doing a very good job of it all by yourself :)

No Ukok you have not seen it many of my post because like I said Catholicism is the last thing on my mind at any given time. I have made 610 posts and I am confident I may have mentioned catholics four to five times. Four or five times out of 610 does not constitute many of my posts are about Catholics.

I am really surprised you have focused on me being anti Catholic because to be very very honest I am not. If you care to know I only started talking about Catholics when I noticed how knowledgeable of the Bible some like you were when I joined this board. It came as a pleasant surprise to me because the Catholics I meet do not come across as Bible thumpers and to see someone like you putting up a defence for your beliefs using the Bible was very good to see. Since then I have noticed other Catholics use the Bible as I have never known before and the sum of it is I am developing a new respect for Catholics.

Appearances can be quite deceptive so I would encourage you to do a search and you you find the number of times I have mentioned Catholics in my post is quite minimal.
 
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btony

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Serapha said:
Well, be sorry,

I looked at it again... and I still don't see it your way... and Hebrews 1:1 doesn't support what you are saying. Just because there is a word for "person" doesn't mean that the word "person" must be used in every circumstance.... does it?




sorry.


Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

There is only one instance of this phrase (the express image) being used in the Bible, and you have referenced numerous "supporting" usages of the word CARAKTHR in other texts as "authority". If it isn't the same phrase, then it cannot be substantiated by other passages that don't have the same phrase.



hUPOSTASIS has five usages in the entire New Testament and you use the argument that no Lexicon support that meaning. Here's the translation of five usages...

confidence 2, confident 1, person 1, substance 1

And you tell me that it's a mistranslation in the King James? On what basis? Because it has to mean "substance" for your argument?


It means "substance" in this instance...

Faith is the "substance" of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.

"Substantial essence" .... isn't the same as "substance".

~serapha~

Yes, thank you for proving that "pesron" is a mistranslation. As I originally stated, there is no lexical evidence for that view. Let us not go down the road of "it doesn't mean what it says." It says what it says, it said being, not person. Though in scripture, a being and a person are the same thing. We can find no scriptural basis for someone being a seperate person but not a seperate being.

-Tony
 
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btony

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Serapha said:
Hi there!

:wave:

I do have a question concerning the Greek translation of Hebrews 1:3 that maybe you could answer for me?




who being [the] radiance of the glory and
oV wn apaugasma thV doxhV kai


[size=+0][the] representation of the reality of him, [/size]
carakthr thV upostasewV autou,


[size=+0]and bearing - all things by the word of the power [/size]
ferwn te ta panta tw rhmati thV dunamewV


of him cleansing - of sins having made
autou, kaqarismon twn amartiwn poihsamenoV


[size=+0]sat on [the] right [hand] of the greatness [/size]
ekaqisen en dexia thV megalwsunhV
[size=+0][/size]
in high places,
en uyhloiV,


When "hand" is in brackets, that means that it is added for clarity... and not in the actual text. Without that rendering, the passage would read....

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right of the Majesty on high" [/left]

That would seem to go well with the singular throne of God in Heaven which is described in Isaiah and Revelation. If there's only one throne and God the Father is on it...and the Son sits on the right of the Father... where does that mean? See, the passage in Revelation describes the three persons of the trinity on the singular thone of God. It doesn't say there are three seats, but it is referenced as "the throne"... indicating one thone, one seat, one Godhead in three persons... that's unity.


~serapha~
Problem for you is, Jesus is not on that throne, but he is at the right of that throne. Jesus sits on the throne for only 1000 years, and actually I don't recall it ever saying that it is God's throne. The holy spirit is never on the throne though.

-Tony
 
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Serapha

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btony said:
Problem for you is, Jesus is not on that throne, but he is at the right of that throne. Jesus sits on the throne for only 1000 years, and actually I don't recall it ever saying that it is God's throne. The holy spirit is never on the throne though.

-Tony

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God


[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Out of the throne (ek tou qronou). Back to the throne itself. The imagery is kin to that in Exodus 19:16; Exodus 24:9; Ezekiel 1:22,27. Proceed (ekporeuontai). Graphic historical present. Lightnings and voices and thunders (astrapai kai pwnai kai brontai). So exactly in Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 16:18, but in Ezekiel 8:5 with brontai first, astrapai last, all old and common words. "The thunderstorm is in Hebrew poetry a familiar symbol of the Divine power: cf., e.g., 1 Samuel 2:10; Psalms 18:9; Job 37:4." (Swete). Seven lamps of fire (epta lampadeß puroß). Return to the nominative (idou, not eidon) with hsan (were) understood. Metaphor drawn from Ezekiel 1:13; Zechariah 4:12. Our word "lamp," but here a torch as in Revelation 8:10, identified with the Holy Spirit (the Seven Spirits of God) as in Revelation 1:4; Revelation 3:1, not lucniai (lampstands) as in Revelation 1:12,20, nor lucnoß a hand-lamp with oil (Matthew 5:15). "These torches blaze perpetually before the throne of God" (Swete). [/font]



:clap: :clap:

CYA,

~serapha~
 
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G4m

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Serapha said:
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Serapha,

are we not also considered equal with Jesus (even the Father), as we will also be sitting on that same throne?
 
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btony

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Serapha said:
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God


[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Out of the throne (ek tou qronou). Back to the throne itself. The imagery is kin to that in Exodus 19:16; Exodus 24:9; Ezekiel 1:22,27. Proceed (ekporeuontai). Graphic historical present. Lightnings and voices and thunders (astrapai kai pwnai kai brontai). So exactly in Ezekiel 11:19; Ezekiel 16:18, but in Ezekiel 8:5 with brontai first, astrapai last, all old and common words. "The thunderstorm is in Hebrew poetry a familiar symbol of the Divine power: cf., e.g., 1 Samuel 2:10; Psalms 18:9; Job 37:4." (Swete). Seven lamps of fire (epta lampadeß puroß). Return to the nominative (idou, not eidon) with hsan (were) understood. Metaphor drawn from Ezekiel 1:13; Zechariah 4:12. Our word "lamp," but here a torch as in Revelation 8:10, identified with the Holy Spirit (the Seven Spirits of God) as in Revelation 1:4; Revelation 3:1, not lucniai (lampstands) as in Revelation 1:12,20, nor lucnoß a hand-lamp with oil (Matthew 5:15). "These torches blaze perpetually before the throne of God" (Swete). [/font]



:clap: :clap:

CYA,

~serapha~
Yeah, as I said, Jesus is on the throne for a time.. Read 1 Cor 15:27...

Having said that, I don't believe that the 7 spirits is the holy spirit, but I find them to be the 7 angels that are spoken of around the throne.. However, even if it is the holy spirit, it says it is around the throne, not on it.

-Tony
 
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