Hi there!btony said:Since the Colossians 1:15 debate is basically concluded, with no points of interest now being provided, I though it might be interested in considering a new topic. This one is in regards to Jesus and God each being a Being, in opposition to the Trinitarian view of them being one being.
It is interesting to note how Jesus, in his existence, relates to God. The author of Hebrews relates this to us very clearly.
Hebrews 1:3 who being the shining splendor of His glory, and the express image of His being, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right of the Majesty on high,
They key words in our discussion come from what is here translated as the express image of His essence, or as Beck puts it, the copy of His being. The word here translated as copy or express image is the noun CARAKTHR. For this word, BDAG explains[1] that it is someth[ing] produced as a representation, reproduction, representation Christ is car. th/j u`posta,sewj auvtou/ anexact representation of (Gods) real being Hb 1:3 (u`po,stasij1a).
The second word we consider simply what is translated as being or essence, UPOSTASIS. This is extremely significant in that the Trinity doctrine has the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being a single being or essence, a single UPOSTASIS. Yet, what does Hebrews 1:3 tell us?
We have found here that Jesus is produced as a representation, a copy or reproduction of Gods being. The Interpreters Bible explains[2], It suggests a faithful, and indeed a detailed, reproduction of the nature of God. As a reproduction of such, is he then the same being? Obviously not, for we have the reproduction and the original. That is two beings. Further, the nature of a reproduction is that it itself comes after the original, perfectly representing the original as Jesus does the Father, thus providing a temporal distinction between the two, removing any possibility of the claimed co-eternality between Jesus and the Father.
Could this be in reference to Jesus becoming a man? Not at all, because Gods nature was not reproduced according to Trintiarian theology, but that nature took a second nature, becoming flesh. The nature was never reproduced. Yet Hebrews 1:3 tells us that it was! Clearly, this can only be a reference to Christs creation.
[1] BDAG, p 1078.
[2] The Interpreters Bible, Volume XI, p 601.
-Tony
Well, let's start with the verse you cited...
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Oh, let's just look at the whole verse in Greek... and let's add in the interlinear...They key words in our discussion come from what is here translated as the express image of His essence, or as Beck puts it, the copy of His being. The word here translated as copy or express image is the noun CARAKTHR. For this word, BDAG explains[1] that it is someth[ing] produced as a representation, reproduction, representation Christ is car. th/j u`posta,sewj auvtou/ anexact representation of (Gods) real being Hb 1:3 (u`po,stasij1a).
who being [the] radiance of the glory and
oV wn apaugasma thV doxhV kai
[size=+0][the] representation of the reality of him, [/size]
carakthr thV upostasewV autou,
[size=+0]and bearing - all things by the word of the power [/size]
ferwn te ta panta tw rhmati thV dunamewV
of him cleansing - of sins having made
autou, kaqarismon twn amartiwn poihsamenoV
[size=+0]sat on [the] right [hand] of the greatness [/size]
ekaqisen en dexia thV megalwsunhV
[size=+0][/size]
in high places,
en uyhloiV,
CARAKTHR. equates to this.... carakthr (representation)
well, we are losing our agreement quickly here...
I like Robertson's....
Carakthr is an old word from carassw, to cut, to scratch, to mark. It first was the agent (note ending =thr) or tool that did the marking, then the mark or impress made, the exact reproduction, a meaning clearly expressed by caragma (Acts 17:29; Revelation 13:16). Menander had already used (Moffatt) carakthr in the sense of our "character." The word occurs in the inscriptions for "person" as well as for "exact reproduction" of a person.
Is Roberson saying that carakthr could possibly mean "person" and not "exact reproduction" when the term means "representation"?????
The second word we consider simply what is translated as being or essence, UPOSTASIS. This is extremely significant in that the Trinity doctrine has the Father, Son and Holy Spirit being a single being or essence, a single UPOSTASIS. Yet, what does Hebrews 1:3 tell us?
We have found here that Jesus is produced as a representation, a copy or reproduction of Gods being.
UPOSTASIS equates to upostasewV (reality)
And let's look at Roberson's interpreation again...
The word upostasiß for the being or essence of God "is a philosophical rather than a religious term" Etymologically it is the sediment or foundation under a building (for instance). In Hebrews 1:1 ypostasiß is like the "title-deed" idea found in the papyri.
and I really, really, always, always love John Gill's commentary.
And the express image of his person;
this intends much the same as the other phrase; namely, equality and sameness of nature, and distinction of persons; for if the Father is God, Christ must be so too; and if he is a person, his Son must be so likewise, or he cannot be the express image and character of him;
You know... I think that Robertson and John Gill agree.... the appropriate word is "person" and not "exact reproduction".
It appears to me that there is no indication that the actual texts reflects that anything was "created" or "reproduced".... but the "person" is the "foundation".... of what... wellThe Interpreters Bible explains[2], It suggests a faithful, and indeed a detailed, reproduction of the nature of God. As a reproduction of such, is he then the same being? Obviously not, for we have the reproduction and the original. That is two beings. Further, the nature of a reproduction is that it itself comes after the original, perfectly representing the original as Jesus does the Father, thus providing a temporal distinction between the two, removing any possibility of the claimed co-eternality between Jesus and the Father.
Could this be in reference to Jesus becoming a man? Not at all, because Gods nature was not reproduced according to Trintiarian theology, but that nature took a second nature, becoming flesh. The nature was never reproduced. Yet Hebrews 1:3 tells us that it was! Clearly, this can only be a reference to Christs creation.
the same word is used in Hebrews 1:1...
(again, Robertson's)
[size=+0]upostasiß). Hupostasis is a very common word from Aristotle on and comes from upisthmi (upo, under, isthmi, intransitive), what stands under anything (a building, a contract, a promise). See the philosophical use of it in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, the sense of assurance (une assurance certaine, Mngoz) in 1 Thessalonians 3:14, that steadiness of mind which holds one firm (2 Corinthians 9:4). It is common in the papyri in business documents as the basis or guarantee of transactions. "And as this is the essential meaning in Hebrews 11:1 we venture to suggest the translation 'Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for'" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocabulary, etc.).[/size]
So... the "person" is the "title-deed"... not just a representative of the ower by law.... but the real thing.
Tony, I'm just learning Greek... but I think that Old Shephard knows Greek, if you want to ask him if I said anything wrong here... it won't bother me a bit.
~serapha~
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