Bethlehem Given to the Palestinians - Roadmap to Israeli Suicide Continues

Tribe said:

The same folks who usually looove the United Nations seem to pretty much only disagree with them over one issue: the fact that they formed the modern State of Israel.

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I disagree with the UN on lots of things. I do not disagree with the formation of Israel. Israel should exist. So should Palestine.

What's the problem with trying for a little bit of harmony in a world of dischord?

Pray4Isrel said:

HUH???
I just answered your question and you are saying none of it is sufficient for Israels ownership?
What about the Six Day War... I am still so totally waiting for your reply

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I have replied a number of times. Do wars establish the right to ownership?


And yes, you are correct - none of it is sufficient for Israel's ownership.



In the interests of promoting more harmony (mainly in my own mind ) I will not post further to this thread.

Pray4Isrel said:

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LOL, aw come'on we were just getting started

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My blood pressure would not handle it.

Pray4Isrel said:

You handle the stress very well... you don't seem like one that would get worked up!

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Oh, I get very emotional, unfortunately. Too passionate about some things, I think.

Maybe I will post on this topic next week. That way, I can have a break over the weekend and relax, ready to get all fired up and frothing on Monday.

Pray4Isrel,

Tribe has chosen to ignore my repeated question, so I respectfully ask you, if diplomacy is not the way to bring peace to the middle east, how can it be done? What is your solution for the security of Israel?

P4I,

There needs to be a Palestinian state, or there probably won't be any peace in the near future. Diplomacy, not war, is the only way to bring peace to the ME, blowing up innocent children certainly isn't helping.

No, I have never been to Israel. That doesn't mean that I know nothing on the subject.

I apologize if I offended you, I should not have assumed that relgion was your motive.

I guess I'm banned now.

Pray4Isrel,


You suggest a war. What would be the "goal" of the war? (i.e. deportation of all muslims?, complete authority of all territories?) What would be the role of the US in this war?

Truce.

There is no point in starting a war, it would only make things worse. Diplomacy is the only way to peace.

War is the only way to peace? That doesn't make any sense. War is the way to death, destruction, and terrorism. Killing innocent people isn't going to bring peace. Diplomacy needs a second chance, there is a chance it could finally work.

Wow! George Orwell would be proud, War is Peace. 1984
Jeff the Finn

A good book on War and Peace is Jacques Ellul's book Violence.
Jeff the Finn

War brings oppression and death, not peace.

The war in Iraq is over and there is no peace. The war on terrorism is over and there is no peace. Iraq is worse off now then they were before the war.

If there is a war on the Palestinians, thousands will lose their lives and the Arabs who do survive will be oppressed by the Jews. Diplomacy and the creation of a Palestinian State are the only preaceful solutions.

In my mind the Civil War in the US was a good thing, although many died. Slavery was abolished. The Union was reunited. But, it took over a century for Blacks in America to have equality as well as freedom from slavery. Change takes time, but the Civil war was a necessary evil in the history of America.

I'm still not clear about what the purpose or ultimate goal of the war would be. I myself am not a pacifist, and do believe in the necessity of war. I try and think about what Israel would need to do in a war to give itself the security it needs, and short of rounding up all muslims and deporting them to Jordan, I can't see what else they could do. And that would be both immoral and would certianly set the world afire. And then what? How would you keep the human bombs from comming accross? How would you keep suicidal fanatics from still holding the population under terrorism. If the US would support something like that, we would all be digging our own graves. So I just can't see how a war would resolve anything.

It can only be resolved diplomatically. And by that, I mean a peace brokered by the US and the ARAB community. Let's face it, the US is Israel's big brother and the Arab world is big brother to the palestinians, it has to involve them as well.

That's the way I see it, I'd love to hear a better idea.

Why should the British military occupation of the land Israel and Jordan now exists on be recognised as a valid legal basis for the state of Israel?

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You seem quite political. The issue to the world's view is that Israel only deserves the land granted to it by the UN, whereas the bible is quite clear as to what land Israel deserves to have:

Isaiah 60:10
"Foreigners will rebuild your walls,
and their kings will serve you.
Though in anger I struck you,
in favor I will show you compassion.

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A prophecy reguarding US and Uk's support for Israel? I think so. And an inclination that Israel deserves the land written in Isaiah.

I am back and temporarily calm.

Saying that diplomacy has not worked is a bit of a stretch. There have really only been serious efforts for peace over the last 15 years or so, and they have been interrupted by various atrocities - including the murder of an Israeli Prime Minister by a Jewish fanatic opposed to peace, demonstrating that there are murderous whackos on both sides.

Northern Ireland is not yet at peace, and they have been negotiating for the same period. But they are slowly - slowly - moving forward.

The current peace moves seem like a hesitant step forward. And if Israel feel they can't make any progress to peace, they can always seize Bethlehem and the other places back, right?

There is only one path to peace that I can see - diplomacy.


As to negotiating with terrorists, the US does it all the time. Iran and Syria back terrorism; the US negotiates with them. The US government, at least, understands that war is not always the answer to such problems.


As to Iraq, war was the solution there. I supported the war.


As to the right of Israel to the land: 1.) I do not think that there is such a thing as a 'right' to any land. There is simply an agreement made on what is yours and what is not.

2.) Even if there is a 'right' it is irrelvant. The question is, 'Does Israel want peace?' If not, they can keep all the land and fight an endless war against terrorism. If they do want peace, they need to give up some of the land. Simple, really.

As to the right of Israel to the land: 1.) I do not think that there is such a thing as a 'right' to any land. There is simply an agreement made on what is yours and what is not.

2.) Even if there is a 'right' it is irrelvant. The question is, 'Does Israel want peace?' If not, they can keep all the land and fight an endless war against terrorism. If they do want peace, they need to give up some of the land. Simple, really.

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Both are direct contradictions to scripture.

Daniel 9:25
"Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

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No matter how you interpret this, it comes out the same. Israel deserves Palestinian land, hands down. Peace will only come when Jesus returns. Palestinians won't stop until all Jews are dead. The Quran says that Mohammed can't return until {a tribe of} Palestine defeats {a tribe of} Israel.

RobSav said:

Both are direct contradictions to scripture.


No matter how you interpret this, it comes out the same. Israel deserves Palestinian land, hands down. Peace will only come when Jesus returns. Palestinians won't stop until all Jews are dead. The Quran says that Mohammed can't return until {a tribe of} Palestine defeats {a tribe of} Israel.

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As I do not believe in what the scripture says, your argument is irrelvant to me.

I would also like you to post a direct quote from the Koran about Mohammed returning. As far as I am aware, the Koran talks about Jesus returning in the end times. There is also nothing about a tribe of Palestine defeating a tribe of Israel as far as I am aware. I am happy to be shown wrong.

It will take a day or so for me to dig up the Quran's verse. You are correct that they believe in Jesus' 2nd return, but they also believe in Mohammed's 2nd return.

As I do not believe in what the scripture says, your argument is irrelvant to me.

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You are actually inclined to believe it, to a certain extent. Of course, it doesn't make you obligated to believe in anything, but the prophecy did take place, and the language used in the manusciptures suggest Daniels' account took place 'centuries' before the 1st Century, a.d. Emperor Hadrian really did place his Abomination of Desolation in place of the hebrew temple, just as Daniel prophesied would take place.

See this thread for more details.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=44078&page=4&pp=10

and this website for details on Emperor Hadrian:
http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/hadrian.html

How does this effect the Palestinian Israeli conflict? Well if the prophecy is correct (which it is, in flying colors) you have to jump to a rather blind conclusion to suggest that it has no authority. It is also correct that Israel would have to fight for it's legitimacy until the Messiah's return.