Two witnesses

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Crusader

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I seem to think the two witnesses could be some relevance to Jesus being a part of the vision on the mount of transfiguration with mosses and Elijah and John, the writer, looking on.
It reminds me of the candle stick in Zechariah’s vision in ch 4 :2 - 3 , with the two olive trees (two witnesses) standing by the one candlestick (Jesus) which had seven lamp stands (the disciple‘s looking on at the vision on the mount or simply, the church).
It looks like the mount of transfiguration to me??

The two witnesses seem to be directly related to mosses and Elijah because the signs and wonders displayed by these witnesses are the same signs and wonders assigned to mosses and Elijah.

I am also aware that Jesus is the fulfillment of mosses and the prophets (Elijah and John the baptizer), so maybe these two witnesses are mosses and the prophets???

Then I think, what about the 3 and a half days that these witnesses were left in the street’s of Jerusalem and then they raised from the dead??? that’s the confusing part??
I think of John the Baptist (whom was a type of Elijah) and Jesus (who was a type of mosses) who were both two witnesses that also lost there life in Jerusalem and Jesus rose the 3rd day.
I then think, maybe, Jesus being the fulfillment of mosses and the prophets, ( as the two witnesses ) was crucified in Jerusalem and then rose the third day, him being a representative of the two witnesses or the two olive trees by being the candlestick with the seven lamp stands.
Only Jesus has risen from the dead and raised up into the sky out of our sight and that was in the mount of olives near Jerusalem.

The problem with revelations is that it can not be taken literally, it was signified to John by an angel and is hard to decipher and that leaves us with all kinds of possibilities, even with Zechariah’s vision about the restoration of the temple, which John seems to be drawing from???

Wouldn’t it be good to have revelations written plainly so we could all come to the same conclusions :scratch:
 
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Faithful1

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Crusader said:
The two witnesses seem to be directly related to mosses and Elijah because the signs and wonders displayed by these witnesses are the same signs and wonders assigned to mosses and Elijah.

I am also aware that Jesus is the fulfillment of mosses and the prophets (Elijah and John the baptizer), so maybe these two witnesses are mosses and the prophets???

I think we should understand that it was not Moses and Elijah that did these miracles, but God Himself. And He will repeat these awesome signs and wonders in the last days so people will recognize HIM.

People will recognize it is the God of Israel that is here again in our midst and this tribulation period is just a wilderness that must preceed entrance into the real promised land.

Faithful 1
 
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Crusader

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I think we should understand that it was not Moses and Elijah that did these miracles, but God Himself. And He will repeat these awesome signs and wonders in the last days so people will recognize HIM.

Each prophet had different attributes and god used them accordingly.

this verse in revelations mentions all the wonders and signs assigned to mosses and then all the signs ascribed to Elijah. I know of no other prophet that has done any of these signs and doubt there ever will be again, although there signs and wonders are still a witness to us to this day.

these are specific witnesses to the world that come through mosses and Elijah and no other prophet has preformed them, not even Jesus.
 
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Rafael

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The two witnesses are here now and fulfilled, as I see things. They are Judah (Jews) and Ephraim (the Church). They two witnesses to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and God's promises and covenants are to them in the Old and New testaments.
 
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Crusader

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Hi Raphe,
Just curious mate, how is it that you see Ephraim as the church when Jesus was a Jew??

Just curious to were you get that from because Ephraim and Judah were always in disputes against each other and Ephraim’s borders have been non existent for around 2750 yrs
 
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Rafael

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Go back and do a search on the promises given to Ephraim and Judah. You will find that the promises are to them and those that sojourn with them. Jesus was the Lion of Judah, and Ephraim was the son of Joseph whose name means to flourish while in captivity. They were dispearsed into the world because of their sins and some call them the lost tribe (one of) of Israel. Israel was two houses, if you remember correctly, right after Solomons sins caused God to split the nation in two. God promises to reunite them and restore them. Even the New Tesament speaks to them. The Bible even speaks of their vexation with one another and that this would come to an end.

Is.11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

I should start a seperate thread for this, but here are just a few scriptures you could consider. The two witnesses have been here since 688AD and the building of the Dome of the Rock.
Rev. 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

42 months = 1278.34 days. 1967AD - 1278.34 days = 688.66AD

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus ALL Israel will be saved....

Jesus spoke of other "sheep which are not of this fold; I must bring them in also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." And "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (John 10:16; Matthew 15:24)

Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'

Zech.9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Zech 10:8-10 I will strengthen the house of Judah, and will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back, because I have had compassion on them; and they will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Yahweh their Elohim and I will answer them. Ephraim will be like a mighty man, and their heart will be glad as if from wine; indeed, their children will see it and be glad, their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together, for I have redeemed them; and they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, they will remember Me in far countries, and they with their children will live and come back. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon until no room can be found for them.
 
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Crusader

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I have seen these scripture raphe and they defiantly do appear to be referring to the return of Israel in our time although I am a little confused to how the seed of Ephraim or any of the other lost tribes of Israel are included in that return in a litral sense??

It is the Jews that have returned to Palestine and named it Israel under one nation again although I am baffled to how any one of them would claim to be of the seed of Ephraim, considering that lost tribe was lost to the world over 2700 yrs ago and there wouldn't be anyone in today’s world that could or would even try to claim to be from the seed of Ephraim (sept maybe a mormon ;))considering there extinct.

Aren’t “ALL” those Jews that have returned to live in Israel over the past 100 yrs from the seed of Judah, Benjamin or levy????
I figure the other tribes are genetically lost to us. Is there anyone in the borders of Israel today that can prove there from a genealogy of these lost tribes or are they all classed as Jews???

I wonder if these prophecy’s are referring to Israel being one nation again, instead of split, as you said, because of Solomon’s sin.

This is the first time since Solomon that Israel has been a single nation called Israel. That a lone is the single biggest sign of our time that God is alive still with Israel.
 
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Rafael

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God didn't lose them, my friend, but they were His plan from the begining. You don't really think He has lost track of one hair on their heads do you? He even planned for Ephraim to stay in a pleasant land while in the wilderness of nations before He called Him out. (Hos. 9:13-17).

The United States has been that place were they have gathered and become the mighty warrior tribe that even today is the only thing standing up for Israel against the entire world. This all plays into God plan where the woman (Israel) was hidden in the wilderness:
In Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

1260 years + 688AD (Dome of the Rock built over the Holy of Holies) = 1948AD New nation of Israel

The promise to Abraham was to the seed would be many nations or "hamon goyim" which translates to multitudes of Gentiles. Abraham was not a Jew, and neither was Isaac or Jacob. The son Judah came from Jacob as did the other 12 tribes.
The Gentile church and the Jews are the only two witnesses on earth to God's truths and covenant. Although they were both persecuted and scattered, God over and over told them He would not forget His love for them and that He would gather them and restore them. It's happening right now.
A great book to open your eyes to this Is "SOZO - Survival Guide For a Remnant Church" by Ellis Skolfield. Another great book is by Batya Wooten called "Who is Israel and Why You Need to Know".
This is all new and exciting to me, too, as it has been held up for the end times which are upon us.
The Ellis Skolfield book is cheap and available at Amazon.com, and he has a new book called the False Prophet which I haven't gotten in, yet, which updates what has been written in his 1995 book - SOZO.
Batya's book is available at their web-site mim.net
 
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Faithful1

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Good explaination again, Raphe.
I agree with your understanding in general; i,e., The Church in general has had a far too narrow view of who the two witnesses are.

Only now has the Church begun to get the revelation that these two represent two people groups.
Some have recently tried to say they are two Churches (from Revel.); however, the Church and Israel is more appropriate since they are the 2 witnesses throughout history. The pre-trib fallacy has blinded the eyes of those seeking the identity of these 2 witnesses because it automatically separates the Church from Israel in the last days. :(

Only by recognizing God's purpose in the last days can one be open to the correct understanding of Revelation... :bow:

However I still think we will have the actual 3.5 years tribulation period as described by Jesus & Daniel; Are you saying you think not?

Faithful 1
P.S. Thanks for the reference...previous post.
 
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Rafael

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Yes Faithful one and here is why:

The times, times, and 1/2 times should be 2 1/2 instead of 3 1/2. 2 Pet. 3:8 gives us a clue to this:

2Pet.3:8 ¶ But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The day is translated 4 times in the KJV and 12 times in the NASB as "time", and the correct translation is time "one time is with the Lord as a thousand years".

So then 2 1/2 would equal 2500 years.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

552BC is the 1st year of Belshazzar when the Lord gave this prophecy to Daniel, and 552BC plus 2500 years = 1948AD

1948 is the year that Israel became a nation. Now this gets better, because the Lord gave Daniel another vision using the time, times, and half, but it was the third year of Cyrus - Daniel 10:1

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

533BC + 2500 years = 1967AD, or the first time that the Jews had control of Jerusalem in 2,573 years, right after the Six Day War.

The misinterpretation of the 70th week of Daniel has led to this 3 1/2 + 3 1/2 year belief, when time is one, times is one more, and half time is half - 2 1/2.

This idiomatic style is a trait of Hebrew and shown in other scriptures. Examples:
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no furhter.
Psa. 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth to God.

In Daniel we see the same idiomatic style. The words are different , but the form the same. Once is one, and twice is only one more, for a total of two: 1+1=2. That's just one of the many Hebrew idioms in the Old Testament.

The 70th week is basically the time of the Gentiles would rule in the Holy Land which ended in 1967AD after the Six Day War. Here's the time line for the 70th week, and it shows the importance of the date the Dome of the Rock was built and made as the abomination that desolates.

From Cyrus' decree to return of the land in 536BC to New Israel in 1948AD is exactly 2484 solar years(7x360=2520x.9857=2484). The exact middle or mid-week is 706AD - approximately the time that the Dome of the Rock was finished.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The sacrifices were reinstituted for a short period after the Jews rebuilt the wall under Cyrus, the gentile king, till 70 AD when Rome destroyed the temple, but the sacrifices stopped with the captivity that started in 583BC only to be restarted for that short period. They ceased for the prescribed time (half of the 2484 - 1242) in 688AD when the Muhammedans built the dome of the Rock at mid-week, and they still have not been reinstituted, and I think they will not be, althopugh rule has now been taken out of the hands of the Gentiles.

I'm sure some of this is approximate, but close. Let the Holy Spirit confirm if this is not on the mark. It hit me dead center, and I'm still tying scriptures together that made no sense before seeing the Dome of the Rock building as a significant date along with 1948 and 1967.
 
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Faithful1

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OK, Raphe; I understand your thinking now;
However, I think you are still missing the point of my question: Jesus says "When ye shall therefore see the abomination...spoken of by Daniel....then flee to the mountains.... for then shall be great tribulation such as was not seen since the beginning to this time, nor ever shall be...". How can you reconcile this statement (with yours) since he says there is coming an abomination, of which he was clearly implying happens just before the end?? :confused:

Faithful 1

P.S. I have modified this post to state my concern more clearly. :o
 
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Rafael

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Faithful one, yes, you are right, and that is a good point., but I think that may have been a partial fulfillment referring to the Roman governor who actually sacrificed pigs in the temple before destroying it in 70AD. Remember , this is when they were put to the sword and dispersed until 1948.
You and I know, that there are multiple persecutions of the Jews, and if I can find the scriptures that I have read supporting this (I've not bookmarked everything, although, I've tried), I'll share it here, along with a scripture that may even refer to the holocaust.
 
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If beyond the two companies of peoples of Ephraim and Judah there are two individual witnesses - Scriptural precedent intimates that one will be an Ephraimite and the other a Judahite.
I fundamentally disagree with this because it insinuates duel-covenant theology which would contradict Peter and Paul's early ministry. If the Jews didn't need salvation then why did Jesus come in the first place?

Isaiah 42:6
"I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

The witnesses might be John the baptist and Elijah the prophet, some say.
 
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Christians, and Gentiles, are not descendants of Ephraim. Ephraimites stopped being apart of Israel after the Babylonian exile where Israelites were disctinctively referred to as Remnants. Those who believe in Ephraimism such as Mormons, Muslims, are not actually Jews, and are following a false doctrine.
 
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However, I think you are still missing the point of my question: Jesus says "When ye shall therefore see the abomination...spoken of by Daniel....then flee to the mountains.... for then shall be great tribulation such as was not seen
No, this happened when Roman Emporer Hadrian built a monument to Jupiter over the temple and ordered those to not woship it to be killed. Messanic Jewish believers fled to the mountains when they noticed the abomination.

This isn't to say that the antichrist won't do something similar, and that Islam isn't a complete abomination in itself, but this did really happen.
 
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Faithful1

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RobSav said:
I fundamentally disagree with this because it insinuates duel-covenant theology which would contradict Peter and Paul's early ministry. If the Jews didn't need salvation then why did Jesus come in the first place?

How so? I believe Raphe is referring to the genetic lineage which in no way implies duel covenents. My belief is that the witesses could very well be Jews and Christians. This in no way implies Jews are not in need of salvation through Christ and I see no statement of Raphe that implies such.
In fact your scripture references imply exactly what I (and possibly raphe) have been saying: That Jews and (Gentile) Christians must all eventually be united as one body in Christ. Since Christ they will NOT be dealt with under separate covenents. The Old has been fulfilled - ALL must come through the new Covenent in Christ; for "there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved". :clap:

Faithful 1
 
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Near the end of Daniel's vision, we notice that the antichrist will not follow any g-d but himself. See Daniel chapters 6-9. Specifically Daniel 9:20-27. These verses prophecy the Annoined one being cut-off by the ones that will destroy the temple; the Romans.

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.

117 Trajan dies at Selinus in Cilicia. Hadrian emperor. Hadrian reverts to policy of non-expansion, and makes peace with Parthia.

After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Taken from: http://www.usask.ca/antiquities/coins/hadrian.html

He is credited with the building of the British “sentry-walk” known famously as Hadrian’s Wall and the consolidation of Dacia. However, the building of a temple to Jupiter Capitolinus on the site of the Holy Temple at Jerusalem caused the Jews to revolt in 132-135.
Eventually, Jerusalem was sieged and Judaea became Syria Palaestina.

In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering (destroy the temple, break the treaty). And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

However, the building of a temple to Jupiter Capitolinus on the site of the Holy Temple at Jerusalem caused the Jews to revolt in 132-135.

http://www.roman-empire.net/highpoint/high-list.html

There it is folks, historically verified evidence that not only what we believe is true, but that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Messiah.
 
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Faithful1

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RobSav said:
No, this happened when Roman Emporer Hadrian built a monument to Zeus over the temple and ordered those to not woship it to be killed. Messanic Jewish believers fled to the mountains when they noticed the abomination.

This isn't to say that the antichrist won't do something similar, and that Islam isn't a complete abomination in itself, but this did really happen.

I'm not disputing that an abomination occurred in 1st century AD. But as is the case there are many times multiple fulfillments; and if you read completely the verse from Matt.24 I quoted, it will become obvious Jesus was referrring to the abomination which precipitates the last great tribulation just prior to His return.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light.... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven..." Matt.24:29-30

Faithful 1
 
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Faithful1

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RobSav said:
I'm not doubting that Faithful1, I'm just stating that the Dome on the Rock is just a continuation of the abomination that causes desolation.

How about the other way around:
The end time Abomination of Desolation that Jesus spoke about is a specific event that is a continuation of the Islamic desecration that began at the Dome of the Rock.

The point is you can't have an 'abomination of desolation' without having a succeeding great tribulation since Jesus linked the two:

"When ye therefore SEE the abomination of desolation (spoken of by Daniel....
then let them which be in judea flee......For THEN shall be great tribulation , such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be".

If Jesus was speaking of 'your' 1st century(or 6th century) abomination, then there would be no greater tribulation (not even the holocost) since then.
Obviously, he is speaking of the last days just before His return.

Faithful 1 :wave:

P.S. You are obviously a preterist sneaking in on this thread to confuse the issue -We can sniff you guys out a mile away. Please read the first thread in the section - no preterist allowed! :D :p BYE!
 
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