Can Christians lose there salvation?

All of that said, I do not wish to “pick apart” your long posts word by word, but rather to hit upon some of the larger points; for to deal with Calvinism in its entirity would take far more time and space than feasible here. (And should certainly earn the participants some kind of academic CREDITS!)

Genesis 8:21 The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, FOR THE INTENT OF MAN'S HEART IS EVIL FROM HIS YOUTH; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done. [Post 442].

Click to expand...

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are FULL OF EVIL and INSANITY IS IN THEIR HEARTS THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES. Afterwards they go to the dead. [Post 442]

Click to expand...

There is a great difference between a verse that issues a THEOLOGICAL DICTATE, and verses that are LAMENTATION. Calvinism founds on passages such as Romans 3, which says “no one seeks after God, all have turned aside, there is none that does good not even one...” Is this an ABSOLUTE? A DICTATE? No. It is merely quoting Psalm 14 and Psalm 53; which themselves are lamentation. IOW, exageration.

Jeremiah29:13-14 says, ”You will SEEK Me and you will FIND Me, when you seek Me with all your heart; I WILL BE FOUND BY YOU!” Which is it, then? NO ONE seeks? Or SOME DO?

Romans 8:7-8 the sinful mind is hostile to God. IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S LAW NOR CAN IT DO SO. Those controlled by the sinful nature CANNOT PLEASE GOD. [post 442]

Click to expand...

And yet, there is
Romans 8:12-13 says, ”So then, brethren, we are under obligation not to the flesh (to live according to the flesh) --- for if you live according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the things of the flesh, you will live”. Where in this is DIVINE DECREE? It sounds all about CHOICE to me...

In all the verses you quoted, where is the premise that mankind is too far gone to receive CHRIST? For it is CHRIST in their hearts that opens their SPIRITUALITY; but there is nothing that says “they are too DEAD to
RECEIVE CHRIST.” One verse used to infer ”They can’t believe BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JESUS’ “ (Jn10:26); yet in context, it REALLY says: ”You do not believe that I’m the MESSIAH because you do not believe in ME!”

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has GRANTED to the Gentiles also THE REPENTANCE THAT LEADS TO LIFE [post 439

Click to expand...

Acts 11:17: ”God therefore gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also AFTER BELIEVING in the Lord Jesus Christ...” Do you see? BELIEF CAME FIRST...

Ezekiel 11:19-20 "And I shall GIVE them one heart, and shall PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN THEM. AND I SHALL TAKE THE HEART OF STONE OUT OF THEIR FLESH AND GIVE THEM A HEART OF FLESH, THAT THEY MAY WALK IN MY STATUTES AND KEEP MY ORDINANCES, AND DO THEM.
Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.

Click to expand...

CONTEXT, ak. You missed verse 18, and verse 21: ”WHEN they come there, they will remove allits detestable things and all its abominations AND I shall give them a new heart.. take
stone-give-flesh-heart... BUT as for those whose hearts go after their detestable things and abominations, I WILL BRING THEIR CONDUCT DOWN ON THEIR HEADS!” declares the Lord
God.” Where is the PREDESTINATION in that? It’s completely choice; turn from abominations to God, receive a new heart; stay in abominations, face condemnation...

Also, you still have not responded to my rebuttal of your usage of John 6:35-44. If it is Christ who does the will of his father PERFECTLY, IT IS HIS WILL THAT HE LOOSE NONE OF ALL THAT ARE GIVEN TO HIM, and no one can come to him without the father’s drawing. THERE YOU HAVE CALVINISM AND ETERNAL SECURITY.

Click to expand...

The context of that part of John6 is Jesus professing His EQUALITY with GOD. the NONE CAN COME unless he is DRAWN by the FATHER (vs44) is said in RESPONSE to verse 42: ”Isn’t this JESUS, son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He say, ‘I have come from HEAVEN?’ (Didn’t we watch this KID grow UP?)” This whole passage is akin to John14:1, “You believe in God, believe also in Me.” IOW, those who truly believe in GOD, are therefore (because Jesus is the MESSIAH) given to CHRIST. Verse 39 & 40 are PARALLEL, not SEQUENTIAL; there are NONE who are given to Christ before they BELIEVE.

First, the idea that thanatos ONLY refers to spiritual death IS JUST PLAIN NUTS!!

Click to expand...

Again, CONTEXT. He says, “Brethren, if any of YOU” --- there is no way to contend he is addressing anyone UNSAVED. “Wander from the truth” --- wander-backslide, but still SAVED? ”Turned a SINNER from the ERROR of his WAY has SAVED a SOUL from DEATH!” Contextually, can a SINNER lie in the ERROR of his WAY but still be SAVED? Can’t imagine how one could make that assertion. It appears unavoidable that “THANATOS” here means “DEATH and HELL”. He’s talking to SAVED BREHTREN, and he says “wanders from the TRUTH”; then he says “turns and his SOUL is saved from DEATH”! There really is no way to bend this into “OSAS”...

Your treatment of Cor13:5, if it speaks only of their CURRENT condition, does not deny their PRIOR one either. Paul is speaking to saved BROTHERS; he then asks them to “test themselves to see if they are in the faith; Jesus IS in you, UNLESS you fail the test.”

First, I note that AGAIN you misrepresent us in thinking that we believe God saves apart from our will! Although Christ has control over our will, HE DOES NOT SAVE APART FROM IT. His choice is our will.

Click to expand...

It is not that I misrepresent Calvinists, but rather that Calvinists often STRADDLE the FENCE. When I say “save apart from our will”, I mean that God sneaks up when we do not wish and IMPOSES SALVATION ON US. And this is precisely what Calvinists believe --- God CHANGES their will so that they have no CHOICE BUT to be saved. Should I have said, “Saves apart from their wills before God FORCEFULLY CHANGED THEIR WILLS”? The meaning would be the SAME...

First, we would have the notion that one can save oneself.

Click to expand...

The concept of ”SAVING OURSELVES” is very MUCH present in Scripture:
”Pay close attention to yourself and your teaching; persevere in these things; for as you do this you will SAVE YOURSELVES and those who hear you.” 1Tim4:16
“By your endurance you will SAVE YOUR SOULS.” Like 21:19
“Receiving as the outcome of YOUR faith the salvation of your souls” 1Pet1:9
It’s not an assertion of PELAGIANISM (which says “man has inherent goodness and doesn’t need God), but rather affirmation of our responsibility in RECEIVING the free gift of salvation (which is RECEIVING CHRIST).

However, if you look at the context, we see that this is talking about “salvation from false doctrine.”

Click to expand...

Interesting ideas that come form “CALVINISM’S CAMP”. Things like, “you can be FAITHLESSLY SAVED”, and “you can dwell in FALSE DOCTRINE but still be saved...” (Although John says in 2:1:7-9, “if you abide not in the teachings of Christ, you HAVE NOT GOD.” If one can be “into false teachings and away from the teachings of Christ”, is there now to be a “Godless-but-saved” position in Calvinism?

James White does an interesting treatise on Gal5; but White blatantly (ane inexcusably) ignores verse 7: “You WERE running WELL; who hindered you from OBEYING THE TRUTH?” White asserts ”they were never REALLY SAVED” --- which is to say, they were UNSAVED running-well and UNSAVED obeying-the-truth.

”You foolish Galatians, who bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly ...crucified? I only ask, did you receive the Spirit by works of the LAW, or by hering with FAITH? Are you so FOOLISH? Having BEGUN BY THE SPIRIT are you now being perfected by the flesh?” Gal3:1-3 Want to side with WHITE and say they “weren’t REALLY begun by the Spirit”? Paul says they WERE. But they became “subject AGAIN to a yoke of slavery”! 5:1!

Let me ask you something. If the gospel makes someone feel guilty of their sin, but instead of turning to Christ for cleansing, they try to turn from their evil ways on their own strength: Would you call such a person NOT SINNING?! I hope not. Having knowledge of what Christ did, and yet relying on ones own righteousness [or lack thereof] is a PAR EXCELLANCE example of total depravity.

Click to expand...

And you totally side-stepped the question. You still say ”It was the FALSE TEACHERS/PROPHETS, who are SLAVES to corruption (verse 19), who NEVER CEASE FROM SIN (verse 14) ---it was THEM who “escaped the defilements of the world through the EPIGNOSIS-TRUE-KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!” You contend ”they had only SURFACE knowledge and APPEARED to be saved but their HEARTS STAYED BLACK!” I wish I could demonstrate to you how hollow your position is. But --- if I fail to convince you, (and I mean NO DISRESPECT), then I am certain that dozens of others reading this interchange will see through your position clearly.

Where in the text of 2 Peter 2:20-21 does it say that “by these HE HAS GRANTED” to them “HIS PRECIOUS AND MAGNIFICENT PROMISES?” You won’t find it. However, one would expect to if they were really paralleling each other.

Click to expand...

Hmmmm; so BOTH are “escaped defilements/corruption”, BOTH through the “epignosis-true-knowldge-of-the-LORD-and-SAVIOR-JESUS-CHRIST”; but ONE is “granted promises”; and because you don’t see “MAGNIFICENT PROMISES GRANTED” spelled out in chapter two, somehow it was a DIFFERENT “escaped-defilements-through-true-saved-knowledge-of-LORD&SAVIOR-JESUS..” It hasta SAY “granted” for you to SEE “granted”. Even though the REST of the words are the SAME. You have yet to explain how one can be “escaped-through-true-knowledge” but STILL CONDEMNED.

Here, the Gospel brings condemnation to false teachers.

Click to expand...

Right. the FALSE TEACHERS who are SLAVES to corruption and who NEVER CEASE FROM SIN, but who ESCAPE the defilements of the world through the TRUE KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”. I’m stumped --- how can I show you that “NEVER-CEASE-SIN” and “SLAVES-CORRUPTION” can NOT be “escaped-defilements”? How do I do that? Either they are SLAVES to defilements, or they ESCAPED defilements; How do I convince you of that?

(BTW, “lay hands” and “Herod’s Hand” sprung from the actual TOUCHING by their HANDS...)

He predestined us to [resulting in the] adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to [in accordance with (kata)] the kind intention of His will,

Click to expand...

And yet, The Kind Intention of His Will is plainly spelled out in other verses (Jn6:40) that “all who BEHOLD the Son and BELIEVE in Him may have eternal life”...

If this is not the verse you wanted, please tell me the citation, and which version it is from because I have looked it up in several and cannot find it.

Click to expand...

You know that I was paraphrasing, and speaking of both...

Hence, God does not want everyone there to believe in him.

Click to expand...

”God our Savior ...desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth.” 1Tim2:4

RE: Rom9:21 --- you repeat John Piper’s “treatise”, which declares that it is GOD who both SAVES AND REPROBATES. This is in bold opposiotion to what is said elsewhere in Calvinistic discussions --- that it is not GOD who reprobates but that they are condemned by their OWN SINFULNESS! And when I contend that “God’s CHOOSING the elect to salvation, and the resultant CHOOSING the condemned to Hell (for if ALL are hopelessly condemned WITHOUT His intervention, then His IGNORING the reprobate is IDENTICALLY THE SAME as His CHOOSING their firey destiny!) --- makes God the AUTHOR of both HEAVEN AND HELL! Which is it then? Does God CREATE THE HELLBOUND? Both positions are asserted (at once) by Calvinists; but Scripture plainly says “God does NOT decree ANYONE to perish”! 1Pet3:9 Sorry, “Boulemai” means “decree” in this verse. No other meaning fits. (THIS is why the NASV translates Rom9:1 as “honor/common”; it also references 2Pet3:9c, to 1Tim2:4 (“God desires ALL to repent"), and Rev 2:21 (“I gave her time to repent but she doesn’t WANT to!" )

If it is GOD who reprobates, then where is the JUSTNESS? It says “the wages of SIN are death”, not ”the consequences of GOD’S DECISION”. The word “JUSTNESS” demands penalty for their own
ERROR.

Wow --- I am astonished at your treatment of Heb10. So it was JESUS who was sanctified in 10:29? Suddenly in the MIDDLE of the verse the pronoun jumps away from ”HE-who-trampled-Jesus-and-HE-insulted-the-Spirit”, to mean HE-Jesus-WAS-sanctified? None of the Bible translations I’ve seen capitalize “HE” in “he was sanctified”; I guess all the translations are wrong? I am frustrated; when I said “Calvinists are so deep in their beliefs”, this is what I meant; you cannot see the spirit of the context. And I am at a loss as to how to convince you...

If Christ perfected us perfectly for all tim

Click to expand...

He says “perfected forever those who are SANCTIFIED; I WOULD refer you to verse 10:29 which shows that “sanctification is REJECTABLE” (thus the perfection conditions on sanctification), but you take that verse to say “JESUS was sanctified”.

But as long as we are ALLOWING Hebrews into the discussion (many people say “it wasn’t written for US" ), then how about 12:25: ”See to it that you do not REFUSE Him who is speaking; for if they did not escape who refused him who warned on earth, much less shall WE escape who turn away from Him who warns from HEAVEN.”

AKB3, if I may ask you one more thing; I posted a commentary on another thread about the whole letter of 2Peter. If you're willing, I would be interested in your opoinion of that post. For your convenience, here it is again:

1:1To those of the SAME FAITH AS OURS, escaped the corruption by lust through the TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 1:5 Be diligent, in your faith have moral excellence & perseverance & godliness & kindness & love; 1:9 he who LACKS these qualities is BLIND, has FORGOTTEN FORMER PURIFICATION FROM SINS. 1:10 THEREFORE be DILIGENT about your CALLING and ELECTION making sure these things ARE yours, that you not BECOME-WRETCHED; 1:11 in THIS way the gates of Heaven will be provided to you. 2:1 Beware of false prophets & teachers, who are slaves to sin; 2:18 seeking to entice the TRULY ESCAPED; 2:20 for if AFTER escaping the defilements of the world through the TRUE SAVED KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and overcome, they are WORSE than BEFORE they believed! 2:21 Better to never have TRULY KNOWN the way of salvation than to have TURNED FROM the holy commandment! 3:1 Beloved, I am writing to you to REMIND you to REMEMBER the sincere words! 3:3 KNOW that mockers will say, 'WHERE IS HE?' 3:7 But the present heavens and earth are preserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 3:9 The Lord is not slow, but is patient; not decreeing any to perish but delaying for all to repent. 3:10 But the Day of the Lord will come as a THIEF; 3:14 therefore, beloved, be diligent to BE FOUND BY HIM IN PEACE, SPOTLESS AND BLAMELESS! 3:17 You, BELOVED, therefore BE ON YOUR GUARD lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, YOU FALL FROM YOUR OWN STEADFASTNESS! But GROW in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!"

=> Be diligent that you NOT FORGET your purification, be DILIGENT about your ELECTION! that you HAVE these fruits, that the GATES OF HEAVEN be provided to you !

=> Beware of false teachers/prophets, who seek to entice the TRULY ESCAPED; for if after HAVING escaped they are again entangled and overcome, they are WORSE than BEFORE they were saved!

=> Beloved, I am REMINDING you to REMEMBER the words of the prophets and the commandment of Jesus!

=> There will be MOCKERS saying "WHEN IS HE COMING" --- but He is WAITING, not DECREEING condemnation but WAITING for ALL to repent.

=> Jesus is coming as a THIEF (surprisingly, when He is not expected); be DILIGENT that He finds you in PEACE, SPOTLESS AND BLAMELESS! do NOT be led astray by unprincipled men that you FALL from your OWN STEADFASTNESS!!! But GROW in GRACE and knowledge of JESUS!

The entire letter reads as a STERN ADMONISHMENT against FALLING-FROM-SALVATION. There are those who say "you can be UNSTEADFAST but still SAVED!" This is WRONG. Peter labors to document those who WERE saved but are ENTANGLED in the cares of the world; he CHALLENGES us to PERSEVERE, to make SURE of our position IN CHRIST. He warns us NOT to be led astray by false men. Where is PREDESTINATION in ANY of the WHOLE LETTER? If ELECTION is totally from GOD, then why in the WORLD does Peter tell US to be DILIGENT about OUR ELECTION? That makes no SENSE! It only makes sense if ELECTION is conditioned on OUR OWN faith!

Predestination's just not there, is it?

Perseverance is OUR responsibility. As Paul writes, "He has reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT BE MOVED AWAY FROM (JESUS)!" Col1:22-23

Do you see? They BOTH say the SAME THING. Steadfastness IN salvation, continuing in the FAITH, is very much OUR choice. The "IF" is REAL; not "empty warning". The "ENTANGLED AGAIN and OVERCOME", "FALL FROM STEADFASTNESS", are REAL --- not "empty warning".

The more I read, the more I see all of them believed in conditional security; IOW, responsible grace.

I say they CAN loose their salvation. Many times I had to rededicate my life to Jesus Christ because I strayed too far from the truth. It won't happen again, though. I swear it.

Hi, Jesse! I admire your commitment. I would encourage you, rather than spend energy to "keep yoursellf dedicated", instead to just spend time with God. The essence of salvation is fellowship. The essence of fellowship is communication. How do you pray? Prayer has different structures:

Praise and worship. God is WORTHY, above all in the Universe. He loves to be worshipped.

Thanksgiving. Did you eat today? Are you clothed? Many in this world are not so well off. Grattitude keeps us from being spoiled, makes us humble.

Repentance/confession. (These are not necessarily in order!) Confess the sins you KNOW about, and the ones you DON'T know about! Confession focuses you on your submission to His Lordship, and He promises to forgive your repented sins. UNLESS --- are there any that YOU have not forgiven? Jesus says, "If you do not forgive OTHERS, neither will your FATHER forgive YOU!" When someone wrongs us, and truly repents and asks our forgiveness, we are required to forgive them. When they do NOT repent, we are also required to forgive them --- but this forgivemess is DIFFERENT --- it does not absolve them from their crime, but YOU release THEM to GOD; you no longer hold them to account. GOD will punish them, or (if they repent in the future) HE will forgive them; it is no longer your concern. This really is an expression of your TRUST for God.

Intercession: Scripture says, "The effective prayer of a righteous man avails much". Prayer DOES move God; and many persons have been saved because of ONE PERSON'S CONTINUAL PRAYER for their SALVATION! Intercession for their salvation, for their health or needs, moves God, and focuses us off of our natural selfishness; it grows our love for others!

Pettition. I regretfully think that MOST prayers are ONLY THIS! But it is not wrong to take your needs before God; He has promised to fulfil your needs. And He will fulfil many of your wants, if they are righteous ones...

ONE LAST THING --- have you ever broken bread with God? No, REALLY --- get a tiny bit of grape juice, and a piece of bread or cracker (saltine without salt is gr8). Read Matthew 6:26ff. Break your bread, and imagine yourself right there in the Upper Room, with Christ and the Disciples. Take the cup, and the bread; and commune with Him. Place this at times last in your prayers, and God will be DELIGHTED!!!!!

The secret to dealing with temptations and struggles, is to claim the victory as DONE! Seek Him, and don't fight; fill your heart with His Spirit, and the battle IS already won. If you fight evil on its own terms, evil has a chance; give it no place in your heart. Read Luke 10:17-19; now read verse 20, it's the KEY. James 4 says, "Resist the devil and he will flee from you; draw near to GOD and He will draw near to YOU!"



(Did we lose "akb3" somewhere???)

Hi, Ben! A Men to your post to JesseB! The more I read of your post the more I learn from you.

Hi, Romanbear! I am deeply honored by your post. Learning is a two-way-street; I don't HAVE all the answers (I think I have SOME). And each of you, very much teaches me.

(Though I'm sometimes a KLUTZ! I really thought I was REPLYING, and instead I EDITED YOUR POST! Please forgive me.. :o )

Can God say no to hisself

what I mean is that God lives inside of Christians[beleivers only] and since he is there even though we might be unfaithful God is able to do Heb 12:6-12 and still bring them home

jayemcintyre said:

I have had this discussion with a few people but to be honest I am still confused.

Can a Christian lose there salvation? For instance, say someone is a Christian for 20 years but then loses that love and belief in Jesus, would they still be saved? I think no, but what do you think?

Your sister in Christ

Jay

Click to expand...

We shall be saved eternally when we enter into the gates of the city. Then we may rejoice that we are saved, enternally saved. But until then we need to heed what the apostle Paul said and to "fear, lest, the promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of us should seem to come short of it" (Heb 4:1)

Having a knowledge of Canaan, singing the songs of Canaan, rejoicing of the prospect of entering into Canaan, did not bring the children of Israel into the vinyards and olive groves of the Promised Land. They could make it theirs in truth only by ocupation. That came by complying with the conditions, by exercising living faith in God, and by appropriating His promises to themselves.

Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say, or to feel, that they are saved. This is misleading. Everyone should be taught to cherish hope and faith, but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us we are not beyond the reach of temptation. Gods word declares "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried (Dan 12:10). Only he who endures the trial will recieve the crown of life ( James 1:12).

Those who accept Christ, and in their confidence say "I am saved" are in danger of trusting unto themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices and many, like Peter, will be led to deny their master.

Hi Ben;
No need for apollogies I never even noticed
In Christ;
Romanbear

Hi Repent and believe;

A quote from you;
Those who accept Christ, and in their confidence say "I am saved" are in danger of trusting unto themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices and many, like Peter, will be led to deny their master.

My Reply;
Wouldn't you agree that we all go through trials every now and then to test our Faith. I feel I have. As far as having confidence in being saved I'm only confident in what God's word tells me and that is if I believe in Him I'm saved. I think some may have different interpretations of what it means to be saved. Mine is that I'm commited to Him. I have surrendered my self to Him so that he may live in me.
In Christ;
Ray

Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say, or to feel, that they are saved. This is misleading. Everyone should be taught to cherish hope and faith, but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us we are not beyond the reach of temptation.

Click to expand...

Hi, R&B! We agree on much. On "being saved", have you ever read 1Jn5:11-13? "And this is the witness, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who HAS the Son has the life; he who has not the Son of God, has not the life. I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have ETERNAL LIFE!"

You see, salvation is a gift; and it is entirely of Him, and none of us; if it was any of us, then boldly saying "I AM SAVED" would be arrogant. But the gift is entirely of Him --- given by LOVE. In other words, underserved, unmeritted, unearned, GRACE. And yet, there is no GIFT that is not RECEIVED. Receipt that changes nothing of the gift --- receiving Christ is salvation (Jn1:12). Abiding in Christ is salvation (Jn15:4, 1Jn4:16). Thus it is the ESSENCE of salvation to say "we are saved", because it is of Christ IN US. Salvation --- is Christ; eternal life? That is the INHERITANCE, reserved in Heaven for us (1Pet1:4); our grasp of the inheritance is our salvation. And if we persevere IN salvation (as Jude says, "keep ourselves in the love of God", or Paul says, "if we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Christ {Col1:3, Heb3:14}) --- if we persevere in Christ, then we will receive the inheritance of eternal life.

Clear as mud?

@ Romanbear

repentandbelieve said:

Those who accept Christ, and in their confidence say "I am saved" are in danger of trusting unto themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices and many, like Peter, will be led to deny their master.

Click to expand...

Actually, he exact opposite is true. Every man fails and falls short of the Glory of God. Every man sins and has righteousness as filty rags. Saying that I am Saved is NOT saying that I have even one ounce of faith or trust in myself, rather my Faith and Trust is in Jesus Christ, my personal Lord and Saviour. Jesus Christ never fails and is completely pure. Any righteousness I might have is imputed to me ONLY through the Blood of Jesus. If you are depending on your own works or righteousness to win your Salvation, you will remain lost. Jesus is the ONLY WAY.

I have to admit that I have not read the ENTIRE thread, but like most everyone else, I'm not unfamiliar with this topic. The issue is can a "Christian" lose his/her salvation? No way....if they are Christ's.
Different personalities handle these issues differently. Mine is meloncoly (sp) I have struggled my whole Christian life with "Is it all true?" I have resolved and determined in my own mind to believe that the Bible is true and Jesus Christ paid the penalty for MY sins. Based on Scripture, I receive, by faith, redemption and eternal life. I can tell you that I still struggle with the simplicity of this. How could a Man, living on this Earth for a short time, dying a criminal's death, be my Savior? Well, I stake my Eternity on it....because the World offers nothing else that makes any sense. Early on, I concluded that if it's all a lie and I believe it....I've lost nothing. But if it's true and I fail to accept it and rely on it, then I've lost everything!

To the best of my human and very frail ability, I'm trusting in Jesus Christ to be my sacrifice and secure for me a relationship with the Almightly God...of Whom He is. If all of it is a lie; I've lost nothing. My favorite verse is "He knows our frame and we're but dust." He knows I'm struggling, but I don't think He is going to reject me because I live in an earthly and corrupted state. After all, He came to seek and to save those who are lost!

Actually, he exact opposite is true. Every man fails and falls short of the Glory of God. Every man sins and has righteousness as filty rags. Saying that I am Saved is NOT saying that I have even one ounce of faith or trust in myself, rather my Faith and Trust is in Jesus Christ, my personal Lord and Saviour. Jesus Christ never fails and is completely pure. Any righteousness I might have is imputed to me ONLY through the Blood of Jesus. If you are depending on your own works or righteousness to win your Salvation, you will remain lost. Jesus is the ONLY WAY.

Click to expand...

Very good! So then saying "I'M SAVED" is NOT arrogant, it is the OPPOSITE --- it means that I recognize my hopelessness, my pride is SHATTERED; I realize that I fully deserve to burn in Hell. Thus --- broken and humble I throw myself at His feet, and implore Him to save me. Saying that "I AM SAVED" is not any faith in MYSELF, but it is my total faith in HIM...

I have to admit that I have not read the ENTIRE thread

Click to expand...

Oh just go back a few pages...

I have resolved and determined in my own mind to believe that the Bible is true and Jesus Christ paid the penalty for MY sins. Based on Scripture, I receive, by faith, redemption and eternal life. I can tell you that I still struggle with the simplicity of this. How could a Man, living on this Earth for a short time, dying a criminal's death, be my Savior? Well, I stake my Eternity on it....because the World offers nothing else that makes any sense. Early on, I concluded that if it's all a lie and I believe it....I've lost nothing. But if it's true and I fail to accept it and rely on it, then I've lost everything!

Click to expand...

Very, VERY good! And there is a corollary --- if there's one chance in a ZILLION of Hell being real, do you dare TAKE that chance?

To the best of my human and very frail ability, I'm trusting in Jesus Christ to be my sacrifice and secure for me a relationship with the Almightly God...of Whom He is.

Click to expand...

This is the essence of salvation...

If all of it is a lie; I've lost nothing. My favorite verse is "He knows our frame and we're but dust." He knows I'm struggling, but I don't think He is going to reject me because I live in an earthly and corrupted state.

Click to expand...

And He has promised to "never leave and never forsake us" (Heb13:5); He promises to "never revoke our gifts" (Rom11:29); and yet, we are called to BE righteous! We are "Through Christ the righteousness of God" (2Cor5:21); "he who practices sin is of the devil; he who practices righteousness IS RIGHTEOUS, even as Christ is righteous! Let NO ONE DECEIVE YOU!" (1Jn3:7-8)

After all, He came to seek and to save those who are lost!

Click to expand...

Indeed --- and whoever believes, whoever RECEIVES CHRIST, is saved...

Welcome to the boards, JAT!!!

2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Would anyone care to comment on the implications of the following verses concerning the doctrine of eternal security?

1. Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

2. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Finally, two questions that necessarily need answering:

1. "Can Christians dispose of (or throw away) their salvation?" rather than "Can Christians lose their salvation?"-?

2. Were the doctrine of eternal security founded in the bible and justifiably true, why would we be called to:

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

or

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

or

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

or

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

or

jayemcintyre said:

I have had this discussion with a few people but to be honest I am still confused.

Can a Christian lose there salvation? For instance, say someone is a Christian for 20 years but then loses that love and belief in Jesus, would they still be saved? I think no, but what do you think?

Your sister in Christ

Jay

Click to expand...

1 peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the father
1peter 1:3 new birth by the resurection of jesus christ
1 peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, guareded in heaven for you

I loved that, Brother in Christ.
This is a hotly and long debated subject, so I know that anything I say will never convince anyone, so I won't try.

I'm one of those who believe that Christians, once saved, can not forfeit their eternal life status. I do believe, however, that Christians do lose rewards and aspects of their inheritance through unbelief, disobedience and on-going sinful behavior that is not dealt with. I believe there is a "sin unto death" for Christians as mentioned specifically in 1 John 5.

Though it's also debated, I believe that the Exodus generation is a perfect example of it. They "believed" God and put the blood on their doorposts and followed Moses into the desert heading for the Promised Land. However, because of their extensive unbelief and rebellion, God determined that they would not receive the inheritance that he had promised them and would all die in the desert...all because they did not trust Him to give what He had promised.

I believe King Saul is an example, as are Annaias and Sapphira. I believe Hezekiah was "on his way out", but he repented and God removed the sentence of "sin unto death" from him.

Just a basic summary of my take on the issue.

Rewards? Such as?