Originally posted by Romanbear in Post #34:
...this is pretribulation rapture...
Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?
Originally posted by Romanbear in Post #34:
...For what other reason would we meet Him in the Air...
Couldn't our being caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus at his coming and then returning back to the earth with him be for the same reason that the people came out of Jerusalem to meet Jesus and then returned back to the city with him (John 12:12-13), or the men of Judah came down to the Jordan river to meet King David and then returned back to Jerusalem with him (2 Samuel 19:15, 20:2), or the Roman Christians came out of Rome to meet Paul and returned back to the city with him (Acts 28:15-16)?
And just as planes go up into the air, then back down to the earth, for a good reason, couldn't the rapture be for a good reason in that it will gather us together from all around the globe into one place in the clouds above Jerusalem so that we all might descend together with the Lord to Jerusalem? Will God have us to walk to Jerusalem from all over the world?
I believe an important reason for the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.
This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).
Originally posted by Romanbear in Post #34:
...If we meet Him in the air then He hasn't come yet...
Could we be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth?
"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).
"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).
Do the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
and two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
and two different raptures of the church?
Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, does this require that it be referring to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven? Isn't it true that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either? Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?
Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show Jesus returning to heaven? Doesn't Acts 1:11 say Jesus will "come" just as he left? Will he come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, even thought he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again? Just as he went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds and "into heaven" (Acts 1:11), couldn't he come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming of Jesus?
Originally posted by look in Post #37:
...God has not given us the spirit of fear...
I believe we all -- whether we are pre-trib or post-trib -- must in these days begin to face and get free of any fear of tribulation and any fear of death, as Christians have always been exhorted to:
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:7-8).
"Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:15).
"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do" (Luke 12:4).
"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23).
Originally posted by look in Post #37:
...how can the twenty four elders be wearing crowns...
Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church, or that only men wear crowns: if the locusts wear crowns (Revelation 9:7), and the devil wears 7 crowns (Revelation 12:3), then I believe angelic princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) wear crowns, just as human princes do.
I believe the 24 elders could be angelic rulers as ancient as the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:6), who with the 4 beasts have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).
Originally posted by look in Post #37:
...the BEMA judgement...
Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.
Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).
After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5).