Pre, Mid, Post?

Do you believe the Rapture will happen pre, mid or post trib?

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Romanbear

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Hi Parousia;
a quote from you;
Our feet don't have to leave the ground for us to be "caught up" in this "air".
My Reply;
Have we conversed before? You sound so much like someone at another message board. The very words "caught up" implies leaving the ground for which way is up it certainly is not staying put is it? So just what is your explaination of the word "up" How can you be caught up and be in the same position as in keep in place.
The term "I was told" is a figure of speach. I have been told but since you want to be technical I have read it also.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
A quote from you;
Just curious, how long would you have to be "away" before you would be satisifed that you were indeed "returning"?
My Reply;
Certainly long enough for my feet to leave the ground.
In Christ;
Romanbear
 
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parousia70

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Romanbear said:
Hi Parousia;
a quote from you;
Our feet don't have to leave the ground for us to be "caught up" in this "air".
My Reply;
Have we conversed before? You sound so much like someone at another message board. The very words "caught up" implies leaving the ground for which way is up it certainly is not staying put is it? So just what is your explaination of the word "up" How can you be caught up and be in the same position as in keep in place.

Hi Romanbear,
We may have conversed elsewhere, I go by parousia70 on every board I belong to.
You asked me what "caught up" means.
The words "caught up" are the Greek word harpazo, it means: "to snatch away." This is where the word "rapture" comes from. Indeed I do believe "caught up" in this passage means something different than a levitation of the physical body from earth up into the atmosphere of the sky.

Harpazo could refer to the body being "caught up" but it could also refer to the Christian being "caught up" without the body. It is used this way in:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago; whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows; such a one was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man; whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows; 4 how he was caught up (harpazo) into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Since Paul doesn't know whether the body was involved in this man's "snatching away", the body isn't necessary, then, in the harpazo event, or Paul wouldn't have expressed this uncertainty.

By identifying the nature of Harpazo, coupled with "aer" meaning the spiritual realm or the air within us as our breath, we can be certain that anyone involved in this being "caught up in the air" event would not have to leave the ground.

Just curious, how long would you have to be "away" before you would be satisifed that you were indeed "returning"?
My Reply;
Certainly long enough for my feet to leave the ground.

So you insist that your feet leave the ground or you aren't being "Caught up"?

As I demonstrated above, Paul didn't share this "Need" of yours. To Paul it matters not if the body is even involved.

But I'll humor your case.
As long as your feet went off the ground say, 4 inches, before coming back down again, you'd be satisfied?
 
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postrib

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Originally posted by Romanbear in Post #34:
...this is pretribulation rapture...
Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?


Originally posted by Romanbear in Post #34:
...For what other reason would we meet Him in the Air...
Couldn't our being caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus at his coming and then returning back to the earth with him be for the same reason that the people came out of Jerusalem to meet Jesus and then returned back to the city with him (John 12:12-13), or the men of Judah came down to the Jordan river to meet King David and then returned back to Jerusalem with him (2 Samuel 19:15, 20:2), or the Roman Christians came out of Rome to meet Paul and returned back to the city with him (Acts 28:15-16)?

And just as planes go up into the air, then back down to the earth, for a good reason, couldn't the rapture be for a good reason in that it will gather us together from all around the globe into one place in the clouds above Jerusalem so that we all might descend together with the Lord to Jerusalem? Will God have us to walk to Jerusalem from all over the world?

I believe an important reason for the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).


Originally posted by Romanbear in Post #34:
...If we meet Him in the air then He hasn't come yet...
Could we be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth?

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Do the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
and two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
and two different raptures of the church?

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, does this require that it be referring to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven? Isn't it true that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either? Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show Jesus returning to heaven? Doesn't Acts 1:11 say Jesus will "come" just as he left? Will he come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, even thought he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again? Just as he went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds and "into heaven" (Acts 1:11), couldn't he come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming of Jesus?


Originally posted by look in Post #37:
...God has not given us the spirit of fear...
I believe we all -- whether we are pre-trib or post-trib -- must in these days begin to face and get free of any fear of tribulation and any fear of death, as Christians have always been exhorted to:

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:7-8).

"Deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:15).

"Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do" (Luke 12:4).

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23).


Originally posted by look in Post #37:
...how can the twenty four elders be wearing crowns...
Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church, or that only men wear crowns: if the locusts wear crowns (Revelation 9:7), and the devil wears 7 crowns (Revelation 12:3), then I believe angelic princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) wear crowns, just as human princes do.

I believe the 24 elders could be angelic rulers as ancient as the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:6), who with the 4 beasts have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).


Originally posted by look in Post #37:
...the BEMA judgement...
Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5).
 
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nephilimiyr

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I see that for the most part, all of us who chose "other" in the poll did so because we believe in the pre-wrath rapture. I chose this also and for the same reason. This is where I lean heaviest but I am still open to listen to all who have an opinion/belief.
 
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"other." i don't believe there is a "rapture" as pre-mill dispensationalists put it. many of the prophecies in Revelation were fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in AD 70, thus ushering in the "end of the age" and millennial kingdom.

edit: Christ will come again someday, of course. I simply believe that the events marking the tribulation period and the beast most talked about in Revelation have already come to pass.
 
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Wills

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postrib said:
Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?


Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, does this require that it be referring to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven? Isn't it true that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either? Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show Jesus returning to heaven? Doesn't Acts 1:11 say Jesus will "come" just as he left? Will he come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, even thought he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again? Just as he went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds and "into heaven" (Acts 1:11), couldn't he come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4)? Does the Bible teach a 3rd coming of Jesus?

JESUS CHRIST is visible on Earth in his Revelation 19 appearance

HE IS at WAR against the Beast (v20) and HE THROWS the Beast INTO THE lake of fire.

Revelation 19:16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him [JESUS] that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Nobody does that other than Jesus, surely you would not expect him to be running away and leaving the Beast to fight with us mere mortals.
He also deals harshly with the remnant that were following the beast after burning up the Beast and the false prophet.
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READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY
ACTS 1: 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

2--Jesus will come in LIKE MANNER AS HE LEFT- He left in the presence of only his close disciples AND HE DID NOT LEAVE IN A GRAND, NOISY MANNER. Likewise, his return would be in Like manner , in a quiet manner, not neccesarily dropping from clouds with lightning, explosions asteroids etc.

This means Jesus's 2nd coming would not be IMMEDIATELY NOISY but in a nature IN THE SAME MANNER AS HE LEFT SILENTLY seen by very few trusted believers. Jesus would be returning to A SINFUL, EVIL 21ST CENTURY Earth and He would not cast himself as a pearl before the millions in sin, as swine.

Later on, when the wars with the Beast are in motion, THE whole EARTH would feel his presence but the initial return would not be A LOUD NOISY AFFAIR, the trumpets notwithstanding.
 
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jayswife29

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No one knows the day or hour. If we were to live through the tribulation I guess that would mean we would know the day. If the tribulation started tomorrow, then I guess we would get prepared for the return of Jesus, kind of defeats the verse that says not to be caught un-aware because Jesus will come like a thief. If I knew a thief was coming to my house tonight at 10:oo p.m. then I would be prepared. By the way Im not post-trib, not really sure what I am any more, either pre-trib or pre-wrath. And as far as being "afraid" goes, I dont personally fear being with Jesus, I am more afraid of who wont be there with me.
 
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postrib

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Originally posted by jayswife29 in Post #48:
...No one knows the day or hour...
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

Note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) of the 2nd coming but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

Before the 2nd coming, at the abomination of desolation, I believe those of us alive and still watching will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

.

Originally posted by jayswife29 in Post #48:
...Jesus will come like a thief...
Note that Jesus comes upon people as a thief only "if" they aren't watching: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3).

Paul said that if we watch for the 2nd coming it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

Note that between the 6th and 7th vials, at the very end of the tribulation, Jesus is still exhorting us to keep watching for his coming: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth" (Revelation 16:15).
 
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jayswife29

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post-trib, thank you for your insight on those verses, I find it very helpful when someone takes the time to explain to me what I may not be seeing. I always thought those verses that were talking about the days of Noah,, were talking about the 1,000 year reign, the life span of people and the sinful lifestyle people. Well I learn something new everyday. Again thanks.
 
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Atkin

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postrib said:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).



Before the 2nd coming, at the abomination of desolation, I believe those of us alive and still watching will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

.

(Revelation 16:15).

Could you enlighten me on how this sacrifice is taken away? I know it is NOT animal sacrifice since that is Satanic in the advent of Christ.

Hebrews 10:4 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

THE DAILY sacrifice is non existent. That is, Christians have never been involved in daily sacrifices and God would be very angry at any Christians who kill calves and goats
for sacrifice after the bloody painful sacrifice of Christ, God in flesh.
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Hebrews 10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very
image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by
year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered?
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Hebrews 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which CAN NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on
the right hand of God;
----
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the
covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite
unto the Spirit of grace?

======================
Of course if any group of Jews start a 21ST CENTURY sacrifice, THAT WOULD NOT be a Godly daily sacrifice referred to in Daniel 12:11-12. It would be a pagan, demonic sacrifice since Moses is dead , that time is not applicable today and God ceased accepting animal sacrifices since Christ's advent.

God typically speaks in wisdom symbols. What is the sacrifice that God refers to in Daniel since God HAS WARNED US not to sacrifice any animals in worship to him anymore.
 
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1 thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them[OT saints] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 wherefore comfort on another with these words

1thes 5:1-10
underline all us,ye,we,yourselves,you, brethren in blue

underline all do others,they, them in red

1thes 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

1cor 15:51 Behold I will tell you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and shall be changed.




combine these verse of 1cor 15:51-52 with 1thes 4:16-5:10

PS .........the last trump with God calling us up and it isn't the only time God uses trumpets in Rev trumpets are sounded several times but by
angels

Another problem people have with the rapture is that they know that there is believers abused and killed but they all left in the Rapture
1. so that can't happen since God needs people to save people
2. or they think we need to suffer for all are sins to purge those sins

both are wrong

THOSE PEOPLE will be new believers during the tribulation a record number of people will be saved in those 7 years but it will not be pleasant
 
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jayswife29

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My opinion was pretty much the same in regards to the trumpets. I always believed the "last trump" was the last trumpet for the church, and had nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation.I thought the dead souls we read about in Revelation are the tribulation saints, but I guess the rapture will happen whenever it happens, the best thing we can do is try to be prepared for any scenario.
 
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jayswife29 said:
My opinion was pretty much the same in regards to the trumpets. I always believed the "last trump" was the last trumpet for the church, and had nothing to do with the trumpets in Revelation.I thought the dead souls we read about in Revelation are the tribulation saints, but I guess the rapture will happen whenever it happens, the best thing we can do is try to be prepared for any scenario.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from those whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.[2 peter 3:12]
Rev 12:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: an another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 12:13 and the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Rev 12:14 And the death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



interesting that there is 2 different deaths spiritual and physical and they were judged by there works thank God that he declares me righteous just because I believe that He did all the work

people from the tribulational that believed ...dead and alive get to go into the millennium kingdom with a possible life of 1000 yr's of life

but that's other verses
 
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