The Seven O.T. books.

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Catholico

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Hello All,

The seven Old Testament books:

1&2 Maccabees
Baruch
Judith
Sirach
Tobit
Wisdom

May be only Apocryphal books.
They are not part of the Hebrew Bible ,Messianic jews don't use them..........
Nor do Protestants(if that matters).

Though we list them as cannonical.

Should they be primary or secondary?


En Christo

C.
 

artnalex

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They are every bit as "worthy/inspired" as any of the other 66 books.

And they are not called Apocraphyl, but Deuterocanonical books.

They are not part of the Hebrew Bible ,Messianic jews don't use them..........

But Catholics do. They were in the Septuagint, and Christ and the Apostles quoted from them many times.

Sep·tu·a·gint ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spt--jnt, sp-t-jnt, -ty-)
n.
A Greek version of the Hebrew Scriptures that dates from the 3rd century B.C., containing both a translation of the Hebrew and additional and variant material, regarded as the standard form of the Old Testament in the early Christian Church and still canonical in the Eastern Orthodox Church.


Nor do Protestants(if that matters).

Well we can thank Martin Luther for that, huh. It doesn't matter though who uses them, as long as we do.
 
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JeffreyLloyd

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The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., council of Jamnia in 200 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council who rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Here are some examples of the NT quoting the deuterocanonicals:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

2 Tim. 3:16 - the inspired Scripture that Paul was referring to included the deuterocanonical texts that the Protestants removed. The books Baruch, Tobit, Maccabees, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom were all included in the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used.
 
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MariaRegina

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"Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., council of Jamnia in 200 A.D.)"



Dearest Jeffrey: My joy in Christ,

Christ is in our midst!

FYI: I did a brief Internet search and the council of Jamnia occurred around 90 AD. 200 AD is when the Hebrew Text was revised/translated.

YSIC

Elizabeth
 
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Reformationist

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artnalex said:
But Catholics do. They were in the Septuagint, and Christ and the Apostles quoted from them many times.

They did? Did they quote from them in other books of the Bible that are accepted by Protestants? If so, can you tell me where?

Thanks,
God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Reformationist said:
They did? Did they quote from them in other books of the Bible that are accepted by Protestants? If so, can you tell me where?

Thanks,
God bless

Sorry. I didn't see Wolseley's post. Are you saying that because these books contain statements that coincide with statements in other books then that means that Christ and the Apostles quoted from those books?

Thanks again,
God bless
 
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nyj

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The fact of the matter is, the reasons that non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians use to "ignore" the deuterocanonicals can also be applied to many other books of the Bible. Therefore, if we applied the rules they have devised to "determine what is and isn't Scriptural" consistently we'd be left with a much smaller Bible than even the 66 book version used by Protestants.
 
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Reformationist

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nyj said:
The fact of the matter is, the reasons that non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians use to "ignore" the deuterocanonicals can also be applied to many other books of the Bible. Therefore, if we applied the rules they have devised to "determine what is and isn't Scriptural" consistently we'd be left with a much smaller Bible than even the 66 book version used by Protestants.

Is this directed at me? :scratch:

What "rules" do Protestants use to determine what is and isn't Scriptural? :confused:
 
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nyj

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Reformationist said:
Is this directed at me?

No.

What "rules" do Protestants use to determine what is and isn't Scriptural?

You tell me. For what reason (other than "Luther told you so." or "That's the way my Bible is.") do you reject the deuterocanonicals as scriptural?
 
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Benedicta00

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Reformationist said:
Sorry. I didn't see Wolseley's post. Are you saying that because these books contain statements that coincide with statements in other books then that means that Christ and the Apostles quoted from those books?

Thanks again,
God bless

Christ was quoting Ishaia 22 in Matthew 16.
 
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Reformationist

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nyj said:
You tell me. For what reason (other than "Luther told you so." or "That's the way my Bible is.") do you reject the deuterocanonicals as scriptural?

No. You said that Protestants have devised rules for determining what is Scriptural and what isn't. I didn't make that claim. You did. All I'm asking you is what rules have we devised. Is the "rules" that you're referring to merely "Luther told me so?"
 
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Oblio

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I guess the question is, why and by what authority did a fallible man edit and abridge Holy Scripture that had existed for 1000 years ? The Church was trusted to put together the entire Bible, the same Church that defended and preserved the faith against numerous heresies through her proclamations in Council, and spread the Gospel throughout most of civilization. Why was the same wisdom given by the Church, through the Holy Spirit, in collecting the books of the Bible, suddenly after a millenia of use, suspect ?
 
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Miss Shelby

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Is "Ishaia" one of the deuterocanonical books? If so, could you tell me the verse in Matthew 16 where He does this?

Isaiah, Reformationist, I believe is what Michelle meant. You asked if they quoted from Protestant accepted books, if I did not misinterpret you. The names of the deuterocanons are listed in the OP. :)

Michelle
 
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Reformationist

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Miss Shelby said:
Isaiah, Reformationist, I believe is what Michelle meant. You asked if they quoted from Protestant accepted books, if I did not misinterpret you. The names of the deuterocanons are listed in the OP. :)

Michelle

Oh sorry. I misunderstood. Protestants accept Isaiah as divinely inspired. I'm asking if there are quotes from the books listed in the OP that are quoted in books accepted by Protestant Christians.

God bless
 
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nyj

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Reformationist said:
No. You said that Protestants have devised rules for determining what is Scriptural and what isn't. I didn't make that claim. You did. All I'm asking you is what rules have we devised. Is the "rules" that you're referring to merely "Luther told me so?"

You didn't need to make the claim, but you acknowledge those choices, those decisions, those factors when you adhere to a 66 book Bible. So what I want to know is, why do you adhere to it? Because someone told you so? Have you validated the "un-scriptural" nature of the deuterocanonicals for yourself? If so, what is your basis for doing so?

Luther supposedly threw out the deuterocanonicals because the Jews rejected them. Yet, if we follow Luther's premise, then we have to ignore the New Testament in it's entirety because at the same Council (of Jamnia) the Jews rejected the NT works there. Also, the Jews do not universally accept the "Hebrew Canon" as Alexandrian Jews still, to this day, use the Septuagint.

My point is that many who argue against the deuterocanonical books will use excuses that when applied rationally and fairly wind up excluding other books that they themselves would consider canonical. Most Protestants dont bother arguing against the deuterocanonicals, and I'll readily admit that, but it's because they have never read them and they just don't accept them because someone literally told them "they're not scriptural".

They never consider though that for the first 1500 years of Christianity, they were considered scriptural.
 
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nyj said:
You didn't need to make the claim, but you acknowledge those choices, those decisions, those factors when you adhere to a 66 book Bible.

I can't imagine there is anything in those books that would make a difference as to how I see God. Is there something in those books that would lead one to believe something that isn't any any other book?

So what I want to know is, why do you adhere to it?

I haven't studied church history enough to know what the early church's original disposition towards these books are. As to why I adhere to a 66 book Bible, I believe it's the Word of God. Are you suggesting that because I don't acknowledge these book that I should disregard all of Scripture?

Have you validated the "un-scriptural" nature of the deuterocanonicals for yourself? If so, what is your basis for doing so?

Aside from the Catholic church who recognizes these books as Scripture? If your answer is no one then I'd have to say that begs the question of how I, as a Protestant who doesn't recognize the authority of the Catholic church, am supposed to validate whether those books are biblical?

Luther supposedly threw out the deuterocanonicals because the Jews rejected them. Yet, if we follow Luther's premise, then we have to ignore the New Testament in it's entirety because at the same Council (of Jamnia) the Jews rejected the NT works there. Also, the Jews do not universally accept the "Hebrew Canon" as Alexandrian Jews still, to this day, use the Septuagint.

Okay. I don't follow Luther. I follow the Word of God so I don't see your point.

Most Protestants dont bother arguing against the deuterocanonicals, and I'll readily admit that, but it's because they have never read them and they just don't accept them because someone literally told them "they're not scriptural".

Probably very true. I, myself, have rarely discussed the validity of these books mainly because I have not read them.

They never consider though that for the first 1500 years of Christianity, they were considered scriptural.

I guess I should research them to see if that's true or not.

Thanks,
God bless
 
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