Two witnesses

Rafael · Jun 29, 2003

The Two Witnesses
And Their Fullness

Before entering into the Promised Land, twelve men, one to represent each of the twelve tribes, were sent spy out the Promised Land. Only two returned with a good report: Caleb, from the tribe of Judah, and Joshua, frorn the tribe of Ephraim (Numbers 13:2,6,8).

In the Bible, the first example of two who witnessed to truth of the claims of the Holy One of Israel are of Judah Ephraim. Two witnesses gave a good report about the promises of our God: A Judahite and an Ephraimite.

At the end of our Holy Book, Yeshua says of His two witnesses: "I will grant the power of prophecy to My two witnesses" (Revelation 11:3. TAB)

Two witnesses were anointed to speak for the Holy One of Israel. And Yeshua describes them as, "The two olive trees that stand before the Lord of the earth" (Revelation 11:4).

Also, after seeing two olive trees, Zechariah asked the Holy One, "What are these two olive trees"? And He answered "These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth" (Zechariah 4:11,14, NM)

In the Book of Revelation, the two witnesses are "two lampstands." And, "Lampstands are ... churches" (Revelation 11:3,4; 1:20). And, (true) churches ( ekklesias) are assemblies /congregations of called out ones.

Thus do we see the two witnesses as two congregations of peoples. And, in the last days, Yahveh calls forth two congregations of peoples: They are the "two sticks,. " or olive trees," that He will soon make "one" in His hand (Ezekial 37:15-28). Judah and Ephraim.

Metaphorically, the two witnesses are two anointed Olive trees that speak for the God of Israel. And history proves that, though distorted, for two millennia, two peoples, Jews and Christians, have essentially been proclaiming Yahveh's twin truths of Law and Grace. And soon, Yahveh will make His divided house, His twin branched olive tree, "one stick" in His hand. For Israel will have lived through a time of division. They will have come full circle. Once more, two witnesses will be fully united in their testimony about the promises made by the Holy One of Israel.

And once more, they will be able to take the Land...

The Only Two

Judaism and Christianity are the only two religons on the face of the earth that give testimony about the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."

Those of Islamic faith claim to follow the God of Abraham. However, Abraham's God calls Himself,"The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" (Exodus 3:16; Acts 3:13). Islam denies that Isaac and Jacob are Abraham's heirs. Instead, they claim that Ishmael is Abraham's true heir. Therefore, the Allah (god) of Islam and the God of Abraham cannot be one and the same.

If There Are Two Individuals...

If beyond the two companies of peoples of Ephraim and Judah there are two individual witnesses - Scriptural precedent intimates that one will be an Ephraimite and the other a Judahite. If there are two individual witnesses who will yet rise, then they will lead the two houses of Israel in a war against the Beast. For, it is their war.

The Amplified Bible says of this battle, "But with united forces, Ephraim and Judah will swoop down upon the shoulder of the Philistines land sloping toward the west; together they will strip the people on the east [the Arabs]. They will lay their hand upon Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them" (Isaiah 11: 14, TAB).

A Witness Even Unto Death

The word "witness" comes from the Greek martus, from which comes the English word martyr. These witnesses will be such in the fullest sense of the word. They will testify even to the peril of their own lives: "They overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even
to death (Revelation 12: 11).

Judah and Ephraim will yet serve and bring to pass a victory for, Yahveh Tsavaot the LORD of Hosts.

Wanting To Escape With Our Lives

Sadly, many Christians look for escape in a"Pre-Tribulation Rapture." But it is not loving our lives, even unto death, that saints gain "patient endurance" (Revelation 13:10)

The late Corrie Ten Boom, a Christian lady who lost most of her family in the Holocaust - because they stood up for and even hid Jewish people in their home - warned Believers, "The rapture-before-tribulation doctrine is now an exclusivly American message." This woman of truly tested faith warned: "Don't listen to those false prophets...."

Those who preach this theory see themselves as "seperate from Israel." They believe that in the end, "God is dealing with Israel." And since "the Church is supposedly missing after Revelation 3:22, " they surmise that they have been raptured.

However, these same people call themselves the saints of the new covenant - until John speaks of the beast making "war with the saints to overcome them" (Revelations 13:7). The they refuse the title. Then they give it to Jewish Israel, their brother.

But to all who show unfailing allegiance during the end times, there awaits a glorious prize. Those "beheaded because of the testimony of Yeshua and because of the word of God....will be priests of God and of Messiah and will reign with Him."

Yeshua gives these faithful ones favored position because, man can show no greater love than to lay down his life for a friend (Revelations 20:4,6;22:12,John15:13;Luke6:23).

Thus all who see martyrdom as something to be avoided through rapture, slight themselves. Tragically, they focus on momentary earthly affliction rather than transcendent eternal reward.

First They Believe - Then They See

Pre-tribulation Rapture Christians believe they will fly away and that Jewish people will go through the tribulation. And then, the Jewish people will come to believe as the Christians do.

However, if this theory were true, then after the Holocaust, Jews should have become Believers by the droves. But in opposition to this errant "wrath brings conversion" notion, Romans 2:4 tells us that it is the "kindness of God that leads you to repentance."

Further, the idea that Judah will look on Yshua and then believe opposes Scripture. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem," Yeshua said, "who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you will not see me until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'" (Mat.23:37-39)

Judah will not see Yeshua until they first acknowledge Him as the Blessed One. The plan is: First they believe, then they see. And they will believe when those called a "wild olive branch" fulfill their divine mandate and "provoke then to jealousy." That is the Father's declared plan of salvation for all Israel (Romans 11:1-26), and there is no backup plan.

excerpt from "Who is Israel and Why you Need To Know" - Batya Wooten

sbbqb7n16 · Jun 30, 2003

I think that you have a great post here with great evidence for your observances.

The only question I have is... how do you know the two witnesses to be two tribes and not to specific people?

Pamela · Jun 30, 2003

raphe,
Great thread! I have been discussing this concept with someone else lately, and I am finding the similarities in symbolism between Revelation and Zechariah in speaking of these two witnesses very interesting.

sbbqb7n16, I believe the excerpt from the book that raphe posted does make a concession for the two witnesses to not only be the two groups, but quite possibly one representative from each group...

"... If beyond the two companies of peoples of Ephraim and Judah there are two individual witnesses - Scriptural precedent intimates that one will be an Ephraimite and the other a Judahite. If there are two individual witnesses who will yet rise, then they will lead the two houses of Israel in a war against the Beast. For, it is their war.

The Amplified Bible says of this battle, "But with united forces, Ephraim and Judah will swoop down upon the shoulder of the Philistines land sloping toward the west; together they will strip the people on the east [the Arabs]. They will lay their hand upon Edom and Moab, and the Ammonites shall obey them" (Isaiah 11: 14, TAB)..."

Love in Christ,
Pamela

Rafael · Jun 30, 2003

Pamela
I have also wonderd about the background of Moses and Elijah - the two that were with Jesus during the transfiguration and who some speculate as being the ones who will be the two witnesses that Revelations speaks of.
I checked, and Elijah was a tishbite, which was in the territory of Ephraim and Ahab was the King of Israel at that time. Asa was King of Judah. Now the background of Moses and which house he was from is even harder to speculate, but I've been looking into it and asking questions.
When I see the events unfolding in Israel, today, I have to wonder if the United States and Israel are not two witnesses even now, but I also believe that this might just be a shadow of two individuals who will show up and take a stand, in the future, against some sort of evil brought on by Islam, having to do with the Dome of the Rock and the former place of the Holy of Holys.
There is a couple of books out that I must get and read by Ellis Skolfield on this subject.

rollinTHUNDER · Jun 30, 2003

I don't believe the two witnesses will be two churches or tribes. I believe it will be two individuals. Jesus probably gave us the answer to this question in Mathew, Mark and Luke, when He was transfigured with Elijah and Moses in the presence of Peter, James and John.

look · Jun 30, 2003

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Well, this would narrow the list of potential applicants for the position of "The two witnesses", wouldn't you think?

For the record (biblical), there are only two people that were taken to Heaven without dying. You know who they are, it's Elijah and of course, Enoch.

They have not received a glorified body yet, so they have yet to die. Why do I say this? Because of Heb. 9:27.

Here is Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

From what I can see, it sure looks like that the "two witnesses" are two men, or prophets. More than likely the two Old Testament saints who haven't died yet.

One other thing. Notice the phrase used to command the two witnesses up to Heaven? "Come up here!", that's the same phrase found in Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Very interesting, eh? I wonder what the "hereafter" was all about? It must be after the Church Age. That's what I see.

You know, if we are the future tribulation saints, then how come the Elders who were sitting on their seats around Jesus (When Jesus started to open the seven sealed scroll) have their crowns and thrones? I mean, nobody will be rewarded for the things they did while they were alive on the earth untill the "Bema" judgement, right? So how did the twenty four elders get their rewards before the tribulation saints? It doesn't click unless the Church (the called out ones) were taken (snatched out) before the tribulation saints started gathering around under the altar. The church is another group of believers, distinctive from the tribulation saints.

May I propose that there are seven raptures?

1.Enoch
2.Elijah
3.Jesus and the old testament saints
4.the main church rapture (future)
5.144,000 Jews in the tribulation (future)
6.the two witnesses (future)
7.the tribulation saints (future)

The last three groups will miss the marriage supper due to their participation in the tribulation period on the earth.

If you think that the church and the tribulation saints are the same, then why is there a distinction between them and the rest of the church saints who lived and died before our generation? What about them? Your grandpa won't get to hang around underneath the altar, where is he during this time?

No, the church won't be divided like that, after all, since the apostles, there have been tribulation against the saints, nearly two thousand years...what separates these from the tribulation saints under the altar?

Jesus will snatch us out from the earth and that act will be the last act of the Church Age. We will not be left to go through the time of God's Judgements on the earth. The lukewarm christians or the unbelievers will be left behind. Oh what a massive revival there will be when all at the same time, all over the world, people who have heard the story of the rapture will then believe!!!

A question for all...
What if you missed the rapture and had to enter the tribulation, all because you didn't put your faith in the "pre-trib" rapture? Remember the five wise virgins and the five foolish virgins? Hmm...

Rafael · Jul 1, 2003

Mixing time and eternity is like oil and water for us, but not so with God, as He is able to operate in both.
I also think that faith in Jesus would be enough to secure a place in whatever plan he has for the end times scenerio - not faith in the rapture.
So then who are the and saints that you have fighting with the beast in Revelations 13:7? Are they the left behind ones that now call themselves saints of the new covenant? Supposedly the church is missing after Rev. 3:22.
Rev.13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Those beheaded because of the testimony of Yeshua and because of the word of God will be priests of God and of Messiah and reign with Him (Rev, 20:4,6). Does this mean there is a different bema judgment for those that have given up their heads during the tribulation? I don't think so.
Preservation of the flesh seems to be the focus of the pre-trib rapture, in my opinion, and the flesh is corrupt and cannot enter eternity. It sounds like an easy way out, but there will only be a few standing and alive that will not taste death when the Lord appears finally.

Pamela · Jul 1, 2003

A question for all...
What if you missed the rapture and had to enter the tribulation, all because you didn't put your faith in the "pre-trib" rapture?

Hello, look.
I have to agree with raphe here, when he said:

I also think that faith in Jesus would be enough to secure a place in whatever plan he has for the end times scenerio - not faith in the rapture.

We are not told to put our faith in an interpretation of theology (one of many I might add)... we are told to put our faith in Him alone.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Believers from every generation since Jesus walked the earth have suffered persecution/tribulation of some sort... why should our generation or future generations be any different?

2 Thessalonians 1:3-5 - We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

raphe... I am going to see about getting those books as well, this whole topic intrigues me.

I see that there are 'layers' to the scriptures, and there can be interpretations that overlap, or compliment one another, based on the depth at which you're reading the scripture. You can have a very literal fulfillment of something, and at the same time, have a very symbolic fulfillment of that same passage of scripture. This is kind of how I see the two witnesses right now. It could represent two nations, two groups of people, two individuals, two concepts... or all or none of the above. In light of your views on the two witnesses, I would also be interested to know how you view the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation.

look · Jul 1, 2003

raphe said:
So then who are the and saints that you have fighting with the beast in Revelations 13:7? Are they the left behind ones that now call themselves saints of the new covenant? Supposedly the church is missing after Rev. 3:22.
Rev.13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Those beheaded because of the testimony of Yeshua and because of the word of God will be priests of God and of Messiah and reign with Him (Rev, 20:4,6). Does this mean there is a different bema judgment for those that have given up their heads during the tribulation? I don't think so.

Well, I think you have overlooked Rev.7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10. And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14. And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

It seems to me that these people will serve God in His temple and this group doesn't include your grandpa or any of our born-again loved ones, so where are they?

Regarding the Bema Judgement, these people are given white robes only and as this verse tells us, they stay in His temple. They don't get to stand on the Bema and receive their rewards. There is only one Bema Judgement and that's for the Church only.

Preservation of the flesh seems to be the focus of the pre-trib rapture, in my opinion, and the flesh is corrupt and cannot enter eternity.

Can you show me where in the Bible the flesh is corrupt and cannot enter Heaven? Because Elijah and Enoch ares still in Heaven in their natural bodies. They will not get their glorified bodies until three and 1/2 days after the beast kills them.

This is the reason for the resurrection, so that our bodies can be changed into bodies like Jesus' body. Then we will be able to stand in God's Presence while reflecting His glory. Adam was created with a covering of God's glory and lost the glory when he sinned. That's also when he discovered that they were naked, the glory no longer covered them. When they sinned, they came short of the glory. ROM 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

It sounds like an easy way out, but there will only be a few standing and alive that will not taste death when the Lord appears finally.

I beg to differ. At the present time, there are over six billion people alive on this earth. The projected mortality rate from all of the judgements and the beast killing the ones who refuse to worship him is estimated to be about 66 percent. That leaves two billion people alive when Jesus comes to set up His kingdom.

Folks, I've been instructed not to argue theology with anyone, so therefore I'm going to just keep my mouth shut from now on. In case you're wondering, there is about two hours between the last two paragraphs. This is what God has told me to do, so I will obey. I now see that I'm in an area where God has not called me to be, so I'm going to say goodbye and I love you all. Don't get offended and get into fear and remember;
Jesus is Lord... :clap:

rollinTHUNDER · Jul 1, 2003

look said:
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Well, this would narrow the list of potential applicants for the position of "The two witnesses", wouldn't you think?

Hello look,
Not necessarily!! Because God has appointed us to die once does not mean that He can not allow someone to die a second time. I guess Lazarus would have been a good example of this, but I wasn't there to witness it. I think it would be fair to say that everyone will die at least once, but God is not bound from doing as He pleases. However, I think Enoch is another good choice as well. It very well could be Elijah and Enoch. I guess it really doesn't even matter all that much who the two witnesses are, and it's not worth arguing over.

Actually though, for the most part, I am in agreement with most of your post. The only other thing that I may disagree on is the seven raptures, but only because one of them will be very different. Men stood and watched Jesus accend into the clouds, as they will the two witnesses also. But when Jesus comes for His bride, no one will see her accend in the twinkling of an eye. I would agree though, that they are all part of the order of the resurrection that must be followed.

This was a great post look!!! I'll take a stand with you on this one. I'm glad to finally see someone here with similar beliefs as mine. Blessings to you my friend!!!

Rafael · Jul 2, 2003

look said:
Can you show me where in the Bible the flesh is corrupt and cannot enter Heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Now, maybe the Kingdom of God and heaven are different, but this is the verse I was thinking of when I said what I did.

The Bible also says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord and that when we see Him we will be like Him. Now what does this tell us? It tells me that, again, time and eternity don't mix well with the linear timeline thinking that we have on our side of eternity.

Those standing in front of the throne - have come from the tribulation and have had their robes washed in the blood of the lamb - Is there any other way?

Remember, too, I am not here to fight, but to learn the truth and discuss it. I am not hard one way or the other about the end times. I lean to a post-trib rapture, presently, but it doesn't mean my mind is numb to the truth when put before my nose - if I'm able to comprehend it (I'm not really all that smart) - just eager to learn, and how else but to pose these things in a thread. I appreciate differing views and respect those that put them forth.

Rafael · Jul 2, 2003

Pamela, the book SOZO - "Survival guide for a remnant church" is supposed to be very interesting according to my friend that has read it. It is on it's way to me now. Supposedly he has calculated the tribulation to start in 2007. Now I know we aren't going to know exact dates of the Lord's return, but I have seen some amazing calculations done with the Bible's numerology - called Gematria - that shows the gospel in all things, like the stars that led the wise men to the baby Jesus.

Pamela · Jul 2, 2003

raphe said:
Pamela, the book SOZO - "Survival guide for a remnant church" is supposed to be very interesting according to my friend that has read it. It is on it's way to me now. Supposedly he has calculated the tribulation to start in 2007. Now I know we aren't going to know exact dates of the Lord's return, but I have seen some amazing calculations done with the Bible's numerology - called Gematria - that shows the gospel in all things, like the stars that led the wise men to the baby Jesus.

raphe,
Just wondering, when you say tribulation, do you refer to a 7-year tribulation period, or a 3.5 year tribulation? Just curious.

People have different opinions about this, and I just wondered how you see this.

Thanks!

Faithful1 · Jul 2, 2003

Excellent, Raphe, about the 'rapture before tribulation' being an Americanized falsehood. Most American Christians can't see it. I certainly didn't for years. :sigh:

Having believed what I read by 'paperback teachers' for years, God had to finally step in and correct me with the Word. It only happened after I decided to: 1. quit trying to 'read between the lines', 2. stop trying to make it all fit in a pre-conceived patterned, and 3. simply let the Holy Spirit reveal it to me from the Word.
It comes by revelation, not interpretation! :pray:

Also a great discussion concerning the two witnesses representing two groups of Christians. :clap:

Lately I have been studying along these same lines.

Faithful1

Rafael · Jul 3, 2003

Pamela - I think mostly of a 7 year period of tribulation. The mid-trib has some following, and I have recently come across a theory that there is a mid-mid-trib or a pre-wrath tribulation timing that comes before the bowls of wrath. I think I have let others tell me what to believe instead fo finding the truth myselfbecause I thought it too difficult to understand, for a long time.
I wonder if some of the harsher signs are not for the period that is post millinium, where the celestial signs become violent.
Faithful 1, I am going back and reseeking much of this because of the promises given to the "two houses" of Israel and how they work into the end times. The characteristics of the millinium kingdom, "reign of Iron", and how it will be populated are particularly interesting too. I have many questions about the millinium period.

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Revelation 12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations
with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."
Revelation 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpents meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Zech.9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

Zech 10:8-10 I will strengthen the house of Judah, and will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them back, because I have had compassion on them; and they will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am Yahweh their Elohim and I will answer them. Ephraim will be like a mighty man (USA/gentile-church), and their heart will be glad as if from wine; indeed, their children will see it and be glad, their heart will rejoice in Yahweh. I will whistle for them to gather them together, for I have redeemed them; and they will be as numerous as they were before. When I scatter them among the peoples, they will remember Me in far countries, and they with their children will live and come back. I will bring them back from the land of Egypt and gather them from Assyria; and I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon until no room can be found for them.

Isaiah 62:6,7 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind Yahweh, take no rest for yourselves; And give Him no rest until He establishes And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Zech 2:11,12 Many nations will join themselves to Yahweh in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in their midst, and you will know that Yahweh of hosts has sent Me to you. Yahweh will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem.

Jer 30:2,3 Thus says Yahweh, the Elohim of Israel, 'write all the words which I have spoken to you in a book. For behold, days are coming,' declares Yahweh, 'when I will restore the fortunes of My people Israel and Judah.' Yahweh says, 'I will also bring them back to the land that I gave to their forefathers and they shall possess it.'

Jer 3:18 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave your fathers as an inheritance.

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Jer.31:6 Arise, and let us go up to Zion, To Yahveh our God.

Ezekial 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: 17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Romans 11:25-26 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery - so that you will not be wise in your own estimation - a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in: and thus ALL Israel will be saved....
Acts 13:23 Of this mans seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Pamela · Jul 3, 2003

raphe said:
Pamela - I think mostly of a 7 year period of tribulation. The mid-trib has some following, and I have recently come across a theory that there is a mid-mid-trib or a pre-wrath tribulation timing that comes before the bowls of wrath. I think I have let others tell me what to believe instead fo finding the truth myselfbecause I thought it too difficult to understand, for a long time.
I wonder if some of the harsher signs are not for the period that is post millinium, where the celestial signs become violent.

Hi raphe.

I have read about many of the different 'trib' theories over the past couple of years, including pre, mid, and post -trib, and pre-wrath. I spent most of my life believing in a 7-year pre-trib rapture, and came to realize that most of that belief was based on what I had been told throughout my life by others, not on what I understood the scriptures to say. I began to see things quite differently when I, as Faithful1 so eloquently said,

I decided to: 1. quit trying to 'read between the lines', 2. stop trying to make it all fit in a pre-conceived patterned, and 3. simply let the Holy Spirit reveal it to me from the Word.
It comes by revelation, not interpretation!

AMEN to that!!!

So raphe, I too have begun to look at this again and study it from different angles with the leading of the Holy Spirit, and have tried to do so without all those pre-conceived notions of mine. I am really interested in the similarities of symbolism that exists between Revelation and Zechariah/Ezekiel, etc. I can't see a 7-year trib anymore, I can only identify a 3.5 year period, and I even see symbolism in that number as well. The more I read the NT, the more I see that those who were faithful to Christ did not hope for rapture, their blessed hope was to be found worthy of the resurrection to eternal life. The more I read, the more answers I get... but for every answer I get, it seems that there are 10 new questions.

But then, that just fuels my desire for understanding and I continue on.

I am very interested in understanding more about the millenial kingdom too. Thanks for all the scriptural references you posted, those are very helpful!

Love in Christ,
Pamela

Faithful1 · Jul 3, 2003

Thanks for the note & affirmation, Pamela... :wave:

I believe you are correct about the 3.5 yr trib.

I also am lead to believe by simple reading of scripture that the period of great tribulation is 3 & 1/2 yrs. (since Jesus says it occurs after the abomination of desolation is set up - Matt.24). And since Daniel says it is set up in the midst of the 7 years, we know there are only 3.5 yrs left.

Faithful 1 :bow:

Faithful1 · Jul 3, 2003

raphe said:
The Two Witnesses
And Their Fullness

Before entering into the Promised Land, twelve men, one to represent each of the twelve tribes, were sent spy out the Promised Land. Only two returned with a good report: Caleb, from the tribe of Judah, and Joshua, frorn the tribe of Ephraim (Numbers 13:2,6,8).

There are many types and shadows in O.T. pointing the the reality to be fulfilled in the New. Your example of Joshua & Caleb is a good one.

It is the 'shadow' of the 'real' two witnesses which are to come just before we are about to go into the REAL promised land. These two witnesses, whether they be groups or individuals (OR BOTH!) will lead the real Body of Christ through the wilderness of the great tribulation period exactly as Joshua & Caleb did just before they enter the promised land.

The Church must be led into the wilderness FIRST, before entering the promised land. Why?
First, because Jesus said so. Even Jesus Himself was led into the wilderness, BUT he returned in the Spirit and power of God.
The Church must follow in Jesus' steps.

Paul said: "We must through much tribulation enter the Kingdom of God".
Jesus spoke to me by hHis Spirit one day when I was studying and said, "The Greek word used for "tribulation" in my quote, 'there shall be a time of great tribulation' (Matt.24) and the one spoken by Paul in, ' We must through much tribulation enter the Kingdom of God' are the same greek word. I rushed to my concordance to check it out and sure enough, He was right! He usually is..

Would you believe ...HE ALWAYS IS? :clap:

Well, I understood exactly what he was trying to tell me.

There are many other reasons why the 'Church' must go through the wilderness, but not enough time now....like Daniel says, for example,...'to try them, and to purge and to make them white, even until the time of the end'.

Faithful 1

Rafael · Jul 3, 2003

Those are excellent points Faithful one, and very plain and simple - which are the most powerful.

Pruning and refining aren't popular, but I believe it's necessary to see God.

Pamela · Jul 4, 2003

Those are excellent points Faithful one, and very plain and simple - which are the most powerful.

Pruning and refining aren't popular, but it's I believe it's necessary to see God.

raphe & faithful1... I couldn't agree more.

Two witnesses

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