Geology challenge *repost*

euphoric

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JohnR7 said:
I already named two geologists that believe the geological evidence supports YEC.

Do you really want people to believe that you are truly this incapable of following a simple conversation. What do you hope to accomplish by having every observer of this thread think you are dense? Are you getting paid by the non sequitur?

-brett
 
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JohnR7 said:
I was under the impression that Dr. Wise feels that the evidence supports the YEC.

Yes, his beliefs in YEC dictate that the evidence must support his position. He does not believe YEC because of the evidence.

If the evidence does not line up with the word of God, then the evidence is not relyable.

John, we don't care about your opinion on the reliability of evidence. We are looking for a geologist that believes in the YEC model due to evidence, not because of religious beliefs. Please name one, or admit that you cannot.
 
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JohnR7

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Arikay said:
John, both of the organizations they write for will throw out evidence if it interferes with their theology. Making them fail the challenge.

That is your impression. Dr. Wise rejects what he feels contradicts the written word of God.

What do you expect? If they accept the YEC that means they reject the OEC. They would have to reject somesort of evidence in order to do that. But as a geologist they know what they are rejecting. They have studied the evidence, and are knowledgeable in it.
 
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JohnR7

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ifriit said:
Yes, his beliefs in YEC dictate that the evidence must support his position. He does not believe YEC because of the evidence.

What do you think, I am spinning my wheels here? Does he believe that thers is geological evidence that supports YEC or not?
 
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Pete Harcoff

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JohnR7 said:
You have failed to prove that. They are geologists and claim the evidence supports YEC. Their personal beliefs is not the issue here. We are talking about what they believe geology supports.

Oh, come on now John, you're not that naive, are you?

Austin works for the ICR, an organization that claims this in their "Tenets of Biblical Creationism":

"The Biblical record of primeval earth history in Genesis 1-11 is fully historical and perspicuous, including the creation and fall of man, the curse on the creation and its subjection to the bondage of decay, the promised Redeemer, the worldwide cataclysmic deluge in the days of Noah, the post-diluvian renewal of man's commission to subdue the earth (now augmented by the institution of human govemment) and the origin of nations and languages at the tower of Babel." - http://www.icr.org/abouticr/tenets.htm

As far as Kurt Wise goes, I think this quote says it all:

"The evidence from Scripture is by far the best evidence for creation. No better evidence can be imagined than that provided from Him who is not only the only eyewitness observer, but who also is the embodiment of all truth. All Christians should be content in His claims for creation." - http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/313.asp
 
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Pete Harcoff

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JohnR7 said:
That is your impression. Dr. Wise rejects what he feels contradicts the written word of God.

What do you expect? If they accept the YEC that means they reject the OEC. They would have to reject somesort of evidence in order to do that. But as a geologist they know what they are rejecting. They have studied the evidence, and are knowledgeable in it.

Which is precisely the point of this thread. To see if the evidence is tenable independent of religious beliefs. Find me someone who agrees with them about the age of the Earth, but who does not share their particular religious beliefs. If the evidence really points away from an old Earth, then there should be someone who can see this without a pre-existing belief in the Bible.
 
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JohnR7

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Pete Harcoff said:
Oh, come on now John, you're not that naive, are you?

It seems to me that your the nieve one. You seem to think that anyone who believe in creationism is either ignorant or a dishonest liar.

"Dr Wise says he is encouraged at seeing an increase in the number of creationist graduate students who are receiving advanced degrees, and who will be able to help build the creationist model. He says the time of the 'lone wolf' creationist is past, where one lone creationist is out trying to attack evolution on his own. In this vein, he is always looking for ways to bring researchers from different fields together, and to get groups working on improving the creation model. At present, one of his undertakings is an in-depth Flood model project with Drs Andrew Snelling, Steve Austin, John Baumgardner, Russell Humphreys, and Larry Vardiman."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3124.asp
 
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Pete Harcoff

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JohnR7 said:
It seems to me that your the nieve one. You seem to think that anyone who believe in creationism is either ignorant or a dishonest liar.

I never said that. And you are trying to take things off-topic again.

To re-iterate the challenge:

Find a geologist who disagrees with the current accepted age of the Earth (~4.5 billion years), but does so for reasons independent of any religious convictions.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Repost:

Let's look at what you presented (emphasis mine, of course):

JohnR7 said:
"They have defined their syntheses of Flood geology and the GUC by the correlation of time boundaries in the GUC to those in Biblical history (Austin, 1994; Austin and Wise, 1994; Baumgardner, 1990; Snelling, Scheven, Garner, Ernst, Austin, Garton, Scheven, Wise, and Tyler, 1996)."

Now let's take a gander at the entire point of the thread (emphasis mine, of course):

Pete Harcoff said:
Find a geologist who disagrees with the current accepted age of the Earth (~4.5 billion years), but does so for reasons independent of any religious convictions.

If they are trying to redefine geologic time and certain events, and they are using "Biblical history" as their reference point, then that is obviously off the topic of the thread.

Again: if "Biblical history" is their basis for defining geologic time, then they adhere to YECism for theological reasons. That is quite clear. Wise even admits that evidence against YECism will be acknowledged by him but he will adhere to YECism for theological reasons exclusively, as was pointed out in the Kurt Wise thread. Austin is a dishonest scientist who attempts to mislead his readers and uses unscientific procedures to reach conclusions. He also works at an organization where he MUST throw out any evidence that contradicts YECism.

So for the umpteenth time, Wise and Austin are not relevant to this thread. They accept YEC geology for theological reasons and they conduct themselves as pseudoscientists according to their theology.
 
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JohnR7

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Pete Harcoff said:
To re-iterate the challenge:

Find a geologist who disagrees with the current accepted age of the Earth (~4.5 billion years), but does so for reasons independent of any religious convictions.

Do you know what a "conviction" is? I do not believe that Dr. Wise is being motivated by a "conviction" be it religious or otherwise. Perhaps, he is motivated by a desire to KNOW the truth.

The difference is, Dr. Wise belives in creationism. He is not against evolution. That would be a waste of energy to try and prove or show evolution to be wrong in some way. He is using the evidence to show creationism. He does not reject divine intervention by God. That is what makes him a creationist.

One example that he uses is during the wedding feast, Jesus turned the water into wine. The natual process of making wine is you would have to plant a tree, and produce fruit, and then turn the fruit into wine. This could take time. So a person who looks at the wine could conclude that it took time to produce that wine.

Jesus in a very short period of time turned the water into wine. This is one of the examples that he uses for a YEC belief.

Dr Wise seems to be more concerned with the fossil record though, then geology. Even though he has a degree in geology. So you want to go to someone else who works more with the geological record. Or do you consider the fossil record to be a part of geology?
 
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JohnR7

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Pete Harcoff said:
Find me someone who agrees with them about the age of the Earth, but who does not share their particular religious beliefs.

I did. You seem to be under the impression that it is a religious belief or though faith that we accept that God created the world. First let us look at what the Bible says:

Proverbs 3:19
The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Wisdom and understanding is a part of creation. So though wisdom and understanding we can know that God created the world. We can know how He created the world. We do not need conviction or belief, we need wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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JohnR7 said:
I do not believe that Dr. Wise is being motivated by a "conviction" be it religious or otherwise.

You end up refuting yourself in the other thread:

Dr. Kurt Wise

Quotations from your post:

For Dr Wise, the authority of the Bible is non-negotiable.

'To accept the entire evolutionary model would mean one would have to reject Scripture. And because I came to know Christ through Scripture I couldn't reject it.' At that point he decided his only option was to reject evolutionary theory."

Conviction is defined as "a strong persuasion or belief" (Merriam-Webster).

Evidently he is motivated by a religious conviction. Your evidence shows that he admits this himself.

Now, are you going to stop playing your game and just acknowledge that your response to the challenge is exactly the opposite of its intention?
 
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PhantomLlama

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JohnR7 said:
I did. You seem to be under the impression that it is a religious belief or though faith that we accept that God created the world. First let us look at what the Bible says:

Even believing in god him/her/itself is a religious position based on faith. The truth of the bible is a faith position. An idea extrapolated from a faith position (the truth of the bible) is still based on faith.

Proverbs 3:19
The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

Wisdom and understanding is a part of creation. So though wisdom and understanding we can know that God created the world. We can know how He created the world. We do not need conviction or belief, we need wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

You have based your argument from a bible quote. Thus, it is a faith-based argument. Thus, it is invalid for the purposes of showing that belief in divine creation is not faith based. There are people with more wisdom, knowledge and understanding than you that do not believe in God.
 
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JohnR7

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PhantomLlama said:
Thus, it is a faith-based argument.

If that were true then people would have an alibi. But they are clearly without excuse.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
 
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PhantomLlama

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JohnR7 said:
If that were true then people would have an alibi. But they are clearly without excuse.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

You cannot prove that it is not based on faith using faith-based scripture. Stop using scripture, it cannot win this argument.

N.B. You have not yet managed to
Find a geologist who disagrees with the current accepted age of the Earth (~4.5 billion years), but does so for reasons independent of any religious convictions.
 
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Melange_Thief

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John, stop now. You are DELIBERATELY missing the point. I know that you are smart enough to get the point (in fact, I don't personally know one person who couldn't, and I know several people of rather low intelligence).

Now the newly formed Evil Evolutionist Conspiracy Organization (EECA) will have to use its Corrupting Satanic Power (TM) to Corrupt the mods and make them ban you. ;)
 
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