What Evidence Is There That The NT Was Originally Written In Greek? :-)

Huldrych · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 05:57 AM The Thadman said this in Post #58

I know that the fragments are rather old. I have a scan of the fragment of John (I forget it's #) that's supposed to be the oldest we still have today. Again, I remember Vaticanus' date being disputed in several articles I've read.

I think that's from P46, too. I believe I have a copy of the image of that same fragment that I found somewhere online.

Shlomo d-MORYO la-kh,
(The Peace of The LORD be with you, )

gleichfalls! (the same to you!)

jth

Huldrych · Jun 28, 2003

Dude, did we lose all the material in this thread past the middle of April?

jth

filosofer · Jun 28, 2003

Huldrych said:
I think that's from P46, too. I believe I have a copy of the image of that same fragment that I found somewhere online.

No, it is P52 and has John 18:31-33, 37-38, located at the J. Rylands University Library in Manchester, England.

P46 has Pauline letters (fragments thereof).

filosofer · Jun 28, 2003

Huldrych said:
"The teaching of fishermen and tentmakers shines in the language of barbarians more brightly than the sun."
--John Chrysostom, on the Goths using their vernacular in litanies, ca 3rd century

Just a note: you might want to investigate the date of your signature regarding Chrysostom. He lived from 347-407 - it would be hard for him to write "ca 3rd century."

The Thadman · Jun 29, 2003

Huldrych said:
Dude, did we lose all the material in this thread past the middle of April?

jth

'Fraid so... :-(

Shlomo,

judge · Jun 29, 2003

I think some threads seem to have been lost, but i notice in one thread a reference that the COE may think their scriptures are translated from greek.
The COE does not seem to think that the pe****ta was ever translated, but that rather it has come to us without change or revision.

see here...
http://www.pe****ta.org/initial/pe****ta.html

from the link...
The Pe****ta is the official Bible of the Church of the East.* The name Pe****ta in Aramaic means "Straight", in other words, the original and pure New Testament.* The Pe****ta is the only authentic and pure text which contains the books in the New Testament that were written in Aramaic, the Language of Mshikha (the Messiah) and His Disciples.

In reference to the originality of the Pe****ta, the words of His Holiness Mar Eshai Shimun, Catholicos Patriarch of the Church of the East, are summarized as follows:

"With reference to....the originality of the Pe****ta text, as the Patriarch and Head of the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church of the East, we wish to state, that the Church of the East received the scriptures from the hands of the blessed Apostles themselves in the Aramaic original, the language spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and that the Pe****ta is the text of the Church of the East which has come down from the Biblical times without any change or revision."

Philip · Jun 29, 2003

What are the differences between the Peshitta and the Greek text? Is there an English translation of the Peshitta around?

judge · Jun 30, 2003

Philip said:
What are the differences between the Peshitta and the Greek text? Is there an English translation of the Peshitta around?

The peshitta (eastern) reads much the same as the greek texts except the text are basically all the same compared to the various greek texts which have slight variations from mss to mss.

The peshitta contains the ending of Mark, does not contain the woman caught in adultery from John 8, does not contain the late addition to 1 John 5. there is another small difference in Luke 24 (I think or is it 23?...or even 21?)
There exists no original 2 & 3rd John, Jude , 2 Peter or revelation. These were copied from greek texts around the 5th or 6th century.

The peshitta(eastern) difers slightly from the peshitto (western) mostly dialect diferences but in two places words appear to have been changed in the peshitto to reflect a more monophysite Christology. Hebrew 2:9 and acts chapt 20 (I think?).

An online peshitta/english interlinear is in the process of being posted at www.peshitta.org
An online translation can be found at www.v-a.com, but t should be noted this may be a more free translation, in the "dynamic equivalence" mode.
There is another translation being done online (I forget the link...but it can be found in the links section at www.peshitta.org.

www.peshitta.com has a version which gives each Aramaic word ( I think) I have not checked it out much.
I think it is of the peshitto. You can click on the aramaic word and it gives you the meanings of the word .
I'm not sure of all the stuff at that site as I have only checked it out once.
Here it is... http://www.peshitta.com/aramaic/books/

Oh also George Lamsa did a translation in the 50's but he is often accused of having some weird theology by more "orthodox" folk.

Higher Truth · Jul 1, 2003

Steve,

After our last discussion on the HRV [now lost], I started looking more closely at various opinions on the "translation" and the organization responsible for it. In a recent websearch I found these:

http://www.seekgod.ca/trimmdoc.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/trimmdiploma.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/yeshiva.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/saintjohn.htm

I think that there are some hard questions that would have to be answered before I would consider using any of their "reference" material or "translations".

Filo,

Nice to see you putting your "two cents" in also.Your scholarship is always of interest.

The Thadman · Jul 1, 2003

Higher Truth said:
Steve,

After our last discussion on the HRV [now lost], I started looking more closely at various opinions on the "translation" and the organization responsible for it. In a recent websearch I found these:

http://www.seekgod.ca/trimmdoc.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/trimmdiploma.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/yeshiva.htm

http://www.seekgod.ca/saintjohn.htm

I think that there are some hard questions that would have to be answered before I would consider using any of their "reference" material or "translations".

I'm glad to see that you're looking things up for yourself.

Akki James has done a lot of things and rubbed people the wrong way, but my relationship with him puts those issues aside and focuses on the Aramaic language, itself. Not doctrine (as if such a thing became an issue it would be a knock-down drag-out fight, as we disagree completely

), not personal belief (as we don't hold identical views about textual criticism and tracking

), but the language.

One thing that Trimm and I share is that we're not fluent in Aramaic. Although I could strike up a little bit of a conversation in Jesus' tongue with someone, his knowledge mostly rests on books, and he is a marvelous researcher. We've had many conversations, and most of his textual criticism concerning the Aramaic language speaks for itself (it can be looked up by any Joe Shmo' and confirmed with the tools that are currently out on the 'net, something which was not possible less than a year ago).

He's also in a bit of a spot, because the institution that he got his doctorate at closed down for various reasons. Thankfully, it is re-opening rather soon, and that will be able to clarify problems with his credencials. But the fact of the matter is: Look these things up for yourself; and, if things still seem fishy, come see me about them and I'll not only give you my opinion, put you in touch with other Aramaic scholars I know and who I work with on a regular basis. It's best to get more than one person's view concerning this.

Shlomo,
--
Steve Caruso
(a.k.a. "The Thadman")

Webmaster & Author, AramaicNT.org
(http://www.AramaicNT.org)

Lead Programmer, eBethArke
(http://www.BethMardutho.org/eBethArke/)

Assistant to the Livingston College Dean of First Year Students
Rutgers University, NJ
(http://livingston.Rutgers.edu)

Higher Truth · Jul 2, 2003

Steve,

You said:

"He's also in a bit of a spot, because the institution that he got his doctorate at closed down for various reasons. Thankfully, it is re-opening rather soon, and that will be able to clarify problems with his credencials."

I did some more reading today, and the supposed seminary who issued Mr Trimms degree appears to have some other problems. It seems that they had deceased people listed on their website as current faculty. One of the people had been deceased since 1997 and the other since 1999.It turns out that since this has recently been exposed, the pages have now been pulled. You are a bright guy Steve. Please look a little closer.

Here are the now defunct links:

http://saintjohnchrysostomtheological.netfirms.com/satsfaculty.html

http://saintjohnchrysostomtheological.netfirms.com/faculty.html

The Thadman · Jul 2, 2003

Higher Truth said:
Steve,

You said:

"He's also in a bit of a spot, because the institution that he got his doctorate at closed down for various reasons. Thankfully, it is re-opening rather soon, and that will be able to clarify problems with his credencials."

I did some more reading today, and the supposed seminary who issued Mr Trimms degree appears to have some other problems. It seems that they had deceased people listed on their website as current faculty. One of the people had been deceased since 1997 and the other since 1999.It turns out that since this has recently been exposed, the pages have now been pulled. You are a bright guy Steve. Please look a little closer.

Here are the now defunct links:

http://saintjohnchrysostomtheological.netfirms.com/satsfaculty.html

http://saintjohnchrysostomtheological.netfirms.com/faculty.html

I must say that this is an interesting development. I'm looking into it at once.

Shlomo,
-Steve

dignitized · Oct 29, 2003

2 Questions:

1 - As Christians, why are we using teh VULGAR CE notations instead of teh proper AD notations for dates? Political correctness be ******.

2 - Can anyone offer to me an explination for the importation of GREEK words into the Hebrew if they Jews did not speak Greek?

danbarnaba · Oct 31, 2003

I am with Aramaic NT as it is the original. I know it is very hard for Westerners to accept this fact but you could check it out if reading God's word in the original language is your desire.

I used to believe that Greek was the original but my quest for the original text made me study Greek and Textual criticism and in the end I discovered the Aramaic text that is called Peshitta or Syriac by the Westerners.

I am so happy to discover the ipsissima verba of Yeshu Msheekha.

:clap:

dignitized · Oct 31, 2003

AGAIN: if Greek was not spoken in palestine and by the Jews, how is it that greek words have been incorperated into the Hebrew Language? How is it that SYNAGOGUE and SANHEDRINE came to be in the Jewish language if Greek was not spoken in Israel?

daranka · Nov 25, 2003

Hey.
I think people are mixing 'middle aramaic' (which was likely spoken in the time of Lord Jesus) and syriac together. P e s h i t t a is written in syriac, which is not the same as middle aramaic. Even though syriac was developed from aramaic, it came a long time after the first manuscripture was written.

I see it this way: P e s h i t t a is translation for the Syrian people.

Anyway. Just my opinion (which are just thoughts of a human)

Lord bless us all

judge · Nov 27, 2003

daranka said:
Hey.
I think people are mixing 'middle aramaic' (which was likely spoken in the time of Lord Jesus) and syriac together. P e s h i t t a is written in syriac, which is not the same as middle aramaic. Even though syriac was developed from aramaic, it came a long time after the first manuscripture was written.

I see it this way: P e s h i t t a is translation for the Syrian people.

Anyway. Just my opinion (which are just thoughts of a human)

Lord bless us all

They may be slightly different but not too much from what I have garnered.
William Cureton seemed to think that the language of the peshitta and the language spoken by Christ were much the same.

"Generally it may be observed that the language used by our Saviour and his apostles being that ordinarily employed by the Hebrews in Palestine at the time, and called by St. Luke (Acts xxi. 40, xxii. 1), Papias, and Irenaeus, the Hebrew Dialect, is so very similar and closely allied with the Syriac of the New Testament, called the Peshitto, that the two may be considered identical, with the exception, perhaps, of some very slight dialectical peculiarities. These facts are so well known to all who have given attention to this subject, that it is not necessary for me to enter into any proof of them in this place."

from the following link..
http://www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/syriac_language.html

All the best....judge

What Evidence Is There That The NT Was Originally Written In Greek? :-)

What language do you think the NT was originally written in (for the most part)?

Greek

Hebrew

Aramaic/Syriac

Coptic

Latin

English (THINK before you chose this one :-p )

Kein typischer Amerikaner

Kein typischer Amerikaner

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Regular Member

Similar threads