What rights should gays and lesbians be allowed to have?

Existential1 · May 31, 2004

datan said:
how is it discriminatory when everyone has exactly the same right?

It comes down to the architecture of the mutual.

If if what you need is built into that architecture; if your nature is reflected in that architecture: then you are included.

If what you need is not built into that architecture; if your nature is not reflected in that archirecture: then you are exluded.

Standard inclusion stuff.

Where one sub-constituency has crafted the mutual in their own image: then other subconstituencies generally have to fight their way in to inclusion; prejudice by prejudice.

Existential1 · May 31, 2004

datan said:
Suppose there's only one grocery store in town. This store only carries Brand A milk. Even though everyone has access to the same Brand A milk, are you going to complain that because there's no REAL choice there's no freedom, and you'd much rather drink Brand B milk?

Suppose you gag on Brand A milk, and can only drink Brand B milk.

And there is never Brand B milk in store.

Then those tolerant to Brand A milk have choice: to have and drink, or not to have.

Those intolerant to Brand A milk have no choice.

2001MustangGT · May 31, 2004

SUNSTONE said:
This is what I would do if I set the laws on this matter.

1. No gay rights.

Wow that was short, I was actually going to do a list, but after thinking about it. That statement says it all.

No gay bars, no gay marriages, no gay bedroom rights.

That doesnt sound like any country I would want to live in. That statement is certainly very anti-freedom.

I sure am glad I dont live in the "Big Brother" world you described!

Can you name a specific country in which there are no gay bars and no gay bedroom rights? And then can you tell me if you live in, or would like to live in that country?

Edited to add: For the record, I believe in equal rights for every single person. From slavery, to universal suffrage, to civil rights, history has proven time and again that discrimination is wrong and eventually fails.

reverend B · May 31, 2004

as each group is recognized as a sub-group of humanity, their rights become a matter of time. we saw it with women's suffrage, we saw it in the civil rights movement. the new "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s" of our country are arabs and gays. they, too, will eventually see their rights protected as we evolve as a culture who's founding documents have freedom as the central theme.
with all the inclusion, though, also come the seeds of the destruction of our way of life. why? because the hatred does not go away. it gets sublimated. i may get arrested if my hatred becomes overt, but i will always find those who stand with me in our refusal to accept the unacceptable. gradually we splinter into our protected boxes, where the sinners are "out there". ask the black community if racism is gone since the winning of their civil rights. how many blacks are in your congregation? and how many whites are in yours?
after all the screaming is over, gays will have the same rights as everyone else, because the founding document does not leave us any alternative. it does not say that these are the rights of our citizens, except for....... it does not have an overiding theology that discriminates between folks. in fact, it doesn't have an overiding theology at all. that's our job. if persecuting gays is part of your theology, then get busy. but don't ask the government to support you. it isn't going to happen. if it was, you would have lost your right to throw your weight around in the hopes that you can rise to the top of the political food chain, your right to make your discriminatory policies law if you can find enough support, your right to hateful and hurtful speech, as long as it doesn't morph into action. and so the melting pot is revealed for what it really is; a stew. one soup with easily recognizable parts. carrots never blend into potatoes, beef into peas. they remain seperate and distinct. when will it end? when we no longer need someone below us to justify our value. when we love first and "cure" later.
when He comes.

Matt Never Existed · May 31, 2004

Datan said:
Suppose there's only one grocery store in town. This store only carries Brand A milk. Even though everyone has access to the same Brand A milk, are you going to complain that because there's no REAL choice there's no freedom, and you'd much rather drink Brand B milk?

Simple. You ask the store owner if he can stock Brand B milk as well. Normally store owners are going to stock what is in demand. If a consumer wants Brand B, then he gets Brand B, and can also get Brand C, D, and E if he so desires. Supply and Demand.

Sunstone said:
This is what I would do if I set the laws on this matter.

1. No gay rights.

Wow that was short, I was actually going to do a list, but after thinking about it. That statement says it all.

No gay bars, no gay marriages, no gay bedroom rights.

This is why I'm glad Random People aren't in the Goverment.

Not exactly living acording to the "Love your neighbor as yourself" are ya? You know, Christ Jesus did point out that it was one of the 2 major points we should live by, second only to Loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

~~~
What rights should Homosexual couples be allowed to have? All of the rights that Heterosexual couples have. We live in a country where Freedom and Equality are held highly. When did we become so blind to think that Person A is better than Person B? All are equal, all should have equal rights. End of Story.

Existential1 · May 31, 2004

Matt Never Existed; is your sig banner, the rainbow sash I've seen mentioned in news reports?

Matt Never Existed · May 31, 2004

Existential1 said:
Matt Never Existed; is your sig banner, the rainbow sash I've seen mentioned in news reports?

My sig banner has a few key things in them. 1. The 6 colors of the rainbow. I put these in there to Identify myself with people like myself. People who wear Gap identify with other people who wear Gap. People who listen to Country music identify with other people who listen to country music.

2. PRIDE means that through all my hardships in my life so far, I'm still here. That means I've won so far. When I'm no long here, that means I finally lost.

I made that signature myself, with Photoshop 7. I'm in the process now of making a new one. I should actually have it finished in an hour or so. Keep an eye open for that one as well!

~~~~

Edit: Mind posting a link to what you said about the 'rainbow' thing in other threads? I haven't read them myself.

SUNSTONE · May 31, 2004

2001MustangGT said:
That doesnt sound like any country I would want to live in. That statement is certainly very anti-freedom.

I sure am glad I dont live in the "Big Brother" world you described!

Can you name a specific country in which there are no gay bars and no gay bedroom rights? And then can you tell me if you live in, or would like to live in that country?

Edited to add: For the record, I believe in equal rights for every single person. From slavery, to universal suffrage, to civil rights, history has proven time and again that discrimination is wrong and eventually fails.

There are many countrys where the homosexual act is against the law. In some of those countrys, the max. penalty is death.

America is a country for the free, but that doesn't mean you can do anything you want. What that means, is we as a nation are free to run the country the way we would like to have it run, through the government.
Now there is more to it than that, but that is it in a nutshell.

Existential1 · May 31, 2004

Matt Never Existed.

Article talking about sash.

http://reuters.us.ed10.net/h/VL5QG/R3A4H/7V/OTU2Y

Its a reuters article of gay activists being denied communion.

SUNSTONE · May 31, 2004

Matt Never Existed said:
Simple. You ask the store owner if he can stock Brand B milk as well. Normally store owners are going to stock what is in demand. If a consumer wants Brand B, then he gets Brand B, and can also get Brand C, D, and E if he so desires. Supply and Demand.
This is why I'm glad Random People aren't in the Goverment.

Not exactly living acording to the "Love your neighbor as yourself" are ya? You know, Christ Jesus did point out that it was one of the 2 major points we should live by, second only to Loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul.

~~~
What rights should Homosexual couples be allowed to have? All of the rights that Heterosexual couples have. We live in a country where Freedom and Equality are held highly. When did we become so blind to think that Person A is better than Person B? All are equal, all should have equal rights. End of Story.

Like a parent who prevents there kids from having dangerous things, like a razor sharp sword at an early age, so am I about the gay lifestyle. I think it is both mentally and physically bad for anyone, as well as society.

Are you aware that the rainbow is a promise from God in the bible not to destroy the earth like he did before?
Don't you find it rather strange that the gay lifestyle picked it up as there flag/colors?

DaveSZ · May 31, 2004

This quandary we are in now with gay marriage is in large part a construction of the initial merging of church and state in regards to marriage.

Now we begin to see the unfortunate problems created in merging the two!

When you merge the two it weakens both the institution of government, and the Church.

I think of marriage as a religious institution. If a gay couple wants to get married through their particular religion, if their religion allows it, then more power to them.

I'm for equal rights. That is, I favor granting the same government benefits that hetero married couples enjoy to gays and lesbians.

However, I'm greatly opposed to the initial merging of church and state in regards to marriage in the first place. Unfortunately, I don't see how this merging can be undone now that hundreds (or more) of government benefits are tied together with government marriage.

Consider:

My grandparents were married in both a separate Catholic Church ceremony and civil union ceremony in Texas after my grandfather returned from WWII in the 1940s.

This was the norm at this time, and it was not out of the ordinary. In predominately Catholic Mexico, this is still the norm.

At some point along the way, some bozos in governmental positions decided that it would be wise to merge church and state by getting rid of "civil unions" in favor of government sponsored marriage.

My preferred solution would be for the state to return to granting civil unions to both hetero and homo couples (for government benefits), and religious institutions should perform "marriage."

This would protect marriage in the sense that it is between a man and woman while not discriminating against gays at the same time.

Matt Never Existed · May 31, 2004

Sunstone said:
Like a parent who prevents there kids from having dangerous things, like a razor sharp sword at an early age, so am I about the gay lifestyle. I think it is both mentally and physically bad for anyone, as well as society.

Are you aware that the rainbow is a promise from God in the bible not to destroy the earth like he did before?
Don't you find it rather strange that the gay lifestyle picked it up as there flag/colors?

First Point: You equate homosexuality to physical injury/death. This is kinda jacked up, since last I check homosexuality isn't like that at all.

2.I like to think of it as a 'Jacob's Coat of Many Colors' kinda thing. And honestly, its no stranger than the color of Dixie Cups. "Oh my God!! Dixie Cups are red.. red like the blood that Christ shed on the cross for our sins!! And people just THROW these cups away!! EVIL!!". Sorry, had to make a point. If you read into things too much, you'll start to see things that aren't there.

Existential1 · May 31, 2004

SUNSTONE said:
Are you aware that the rainbow is a promise from God in the bible not to destroy the earth like he did before?
Don't you find it rather strange that the gay lifestyle picked it up as there flag/colors?

I hadn't seen that connection: but I like the idea; there's a part of me that would like everyhting to be as simple-sorted, as that rainbow God promise.

Maybe when I wake tomorrow, a deeper living water connection between the two will present itself.

Flood, washing away worldy iniquities.

Gay inclusion, washing away ..... ??????

I'm so tired, my adult is meeting my infant, I just want it all sorted, doing it with colours would be nice.

Good night everyone.

Let not the sun set on your wrath.

I feel like I'm being looked after.

DaveSZ · May 31, 2004

Western Deity said:
It depends on if you're a practicing (sp?) gay, and if you're in a fundementalist christian country founded on fundamentalist christian principals (for example- America).

.

America is not a Fundamentalist country.

Many of the Founding Fathers were also deists.

The Baptists were once a persecuted sect in America, and Jefferson wrote them a now famous letter guaranteeing them freedom of religion.

Now that some far-right authoritarian Baptists have achieved great political clout, they've become revisionist historians in their arrogant efforts to create a theocratic state in America's place.

As long as I have breath in my body I won't let that happen, for I love America too much.

Matt Never Existed · May 31, 2004

Existential1 said:
Matt Never Existed.

Article talking about sash.

http://reuters.us.ed10.net/h/VL5QG/R3A4H/7V/OTU2Y

Its a reuters article of gay activists being denied communion.

Good article. I would never wear a rainbow 'sash' though. Sashes are for Pagent Queens, I am not one of those. Now, a rainbow bracelet or maybe rainbow shoelaces, yes. Either of those would be fun to wear. Or maybe a rainbow Necklace thing. It has to be simple, yet stylish.. ~goes off to design these things~

EdmundBlackadderTheThird · May 31, 2004

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