If you cannot believe the genesis account....

the_cloaked_crusader

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but you left out part of my statement. We DON'T speak of the earth being fixed and immobile or resting on pillars for that matter.
Actually, in Job the earth is said to be hung upon nothing. and one might say that the earth (as in the land) rests upon pillars.
I had already answered your post regarding the fixedness of the earth: I was going to ask my pastor. (I'll have an answer from him soon). That statement was referring strictly to the bit about the sun.
If you are adding onto it you ARE changing it.
granted. But I don't claim that my additions are the inspired word of God; my "changes" are mutable. Nor do I claim that the Scripture is meant as nothing more nor less than a myth.
But the passage says that NOTHING escapes the heat. So it is not literally correct is it?
Again, this is from the perspective of the observer. I should ask my Pastor what Hebrew word for "nothing" is used here . . .
400 years ago I might have been arguing for a heliocentric solar system and people like you and joebob would have said you would stick with the clear geocentric teaching of immutable scripture rather than changable science which could change again any day. After all Galileo couldn't PROVE that the earth goes around the sun.
My point is that the geocentric model had not been as completely refuted at that time as it has now. This is a useless discourse, since we don't know for sure what any of us would have said or done had we lived then. it would depend largely on our previous experience, education, and upbringing.

That sounded like something that would be said by a theistic evolutionist, how odd.
But the theistic evolutionist would be wrong, since the passages in Genesis have to be delegated to the "parable" class before they can become "accurate" by that definition. I would never claim that a passage was meant to be a myth unless it were specifically said to be so by the Author.

No, things become myth and symbolic. Unless of course you can show us the gates to the oceans, or the storehouses in the sky, or how stoping the sun will make the day become longer, etc.
I think that, in the passages in Job, God was making a point even there: Job knew so little that he didn't even know that there was no storehouse in the sky. You will probably ask why I find myself able to "parable-ize" this passage, but not Genesis; I shall pre-emptively respond that God had a reason to say this, whereas he had no reason to make up a creation myth (or, at least, no logical one that I have seen). And again, I would never, ever argue this idea of Job over another, more reasonable one . . .
The bible doesn't directly state the earth is young either.
If you ignore science and just stick with a literal bible, you get a young earth, a flat earth, and a geocentric model.
But it does directly state that God created the earth in Six days! it also directly states that there was a certain number of generations between Genesis 1:1 and Mathew 1:1.

The fact of the matter is that you have reinterpreted the bible based on extra-biblical knowledge already. So your views are based on half science and half bible, which is exactly what theistic evolutionists do. That suggests that you follow creationism not because the bible says so, but because you want the bible to say so.
lol You guys crack me up. But seriously, folks, I don't know how many other ways I can explain this. There is a diference between my "interpretation" (as you would call it) of the text and the theistic evolutionist's interpretation of Genesis 1-3. Alas, my verbal powers are not yet equal to the task of explaining it clearly enough that even people with their hands over their eyes can understand it. :sigh: I will say this: from what I have seen, it is still not as scientifically certain that the earth is billions of years old as you would have me believe. (Bandersnatch, I know you're going to post a very long list of links, but I don't have time to get into a really serious debate now . . . they'll have to wait until after August 1st, at which time I will no longer be studying Hebrews constantly.)
Speaking of flat earth, a literal reading of the bible more strongly points to a flat earth than it does a 6000 year old one. :)
No it doesn't. ^_^

<bit about plant life>
Maybe God had the earth in his workshop for the first couple of days, then built the solar system around it. and I think the plants can go 24 hours without sunlight. ;)
You stil hven't explained why God would make Moses go to all the trouble of writing down specifically what happened on each day without its having been true.

It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
I usually stretch out my tent over a sleeping-bag shaped object. ;) I don't think God is limited to normal tents, do you? And this is actually a fairly good description of the earth's magnetic field and ozone layer, which protect us from the solar wind and UV rays respectively . . .
Did the ancient Hebrews even have a word for sphere? And really, what the ancient Hebrews believed about the earth is entirely irrelevant. they can have mis-interpreted the Bible's meaning just as easily as you have.
How do you stretch a spherical earth over the waters below?
in this case I think it was referring to the land being stretched over the waters of the earth, rather the way the rubber of a basketball is stretched over the air within. (some think this is what hte earth was like preflood . . oh, nuts, my credibility just disappeared again! )
Yeah they really screwed up when writing their perfectly inspired book didn't they. (since they chose to use a word that didn't get the point accross)
Maybe God didn't want to hit themwith too much at once. I mean, come on, Isaiah would have lost all credibility with his listeners if he started talking wacky (if accurate) science. (Again, just another idea which may have been a slight factor . . .)

best of regards
the_cloaked_crusader
 
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jobob

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The thing thats amazing here is all you folks are making the ASSUMPTION that the Hebrews didnt know the earth was spherecal...

If I ASSUME they didnt, all these wonderful points might be valid...

If I ASSUME they did know the shape of the earth, and I do as no one can PROVE otherwise, then I ASSUME the descriptions such as ''ends of the earth'' and ALL other like terms are a figure of speech...

The texts do NOT emphasize (such as repeating the phase 3 or more times in succession) that the earth has four corners or maybe you all would have an arguement...

BUT Genesis 1 defines a day in verses 4 and 5 and then goes to lengths to SHOW that this day is being used (''an evening and a morning'' repititiously).

To the brethren .......If you can READ Genesis 1 and TRY to understand exactly whats saying and then say it means anything other than 6 literal days...... more power to ya.........
 
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Arikay

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Cloaked: I assume then you can show me the verse that literally says the earth is 6000 years old?
It seems that this is one of those close your eyes and try to ignore a problem till it goes away things. Whether Chuwg means flat circle or is unknown, there is more possibility that the bible literally says "flat circle" than "6000 year old earth."

I do find it interesting to watch people fight so hard for the literal definition of one hebrew word and then turn around and fight against a literal definition of another hebrew word. Almost like they are picking and choosing what they take literal. :)
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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jobob said:
The thing thats amazing here is all you folks are making the ASSUMPTION that the Hebrews didnt know the earth was spherecal...

If I ASSUME they didnt, all these wonderful points might be valid...

If I ASSUME they did know the shape of the earth, and I do as no one can PROVE otherwise, then I ASSUME the descriptions such as ''ends of the earth'' and ALL other like terms are a figure of speech...
Actually you are the one assuming they knew the earth was spherical when there is no evidence that they did and some of the text indicates that they did not.

The texts do NOT emphasize (such as repeating the phase 3 or more times in succession) that the earth has four corners or maybe you all would have an arguement...
No but they certainly do say in many places that the earth is fixed and does not move.

BUT Genesis 1 defines a day in verses 4 and 5 and then goes to lengths to SHOW that this day is being used (''an evening and a morning'' repititiously).
And you still haven't really explained how morning and evening make sense before the creation of the sun.

To the brethren .......If you can READ Genesis 1 and TRY to understand exactly whats saying and then say it means anything other than 6 literal days...... more power to ya.........
Well many do but let's ASSUME you are right and it means exactly 6 days and the earth is supposed to be young. Since the earth has clearly been around for more than a few thousand years and plants were not created before the sun and all plants were not created before any animals then Genesis is just a collection of mythology. BTW what is supposed to be understood from Genesis 2?

the frumious Bandersnatch
 
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kaotic

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jobob said:
and if you all dont want to accept the evidence that an animal spoke elsewhere in the bible thru supernatural means, showing that the snake could have too, then DONT ask the question.....
All I have to say is this is another example of people not knowing what the word evidence really means.
 
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jobob

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Arikay said:
Cloaked: I assume then you can show me the verse that literally says the earth is 6000 years old?
Come now......we BOTH know I can dig up geneologies from Adam all the way up to Christ...

and YOU know THATS where the 6000 years comes from....

nice try tho... :wave:
 
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jobob

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kaotic said:
All I have to say is this is another example of people not knowing what the word evidence really means.

Oh really...

So if you saw a snake talk and couldnt figure it out......youd totally ignore the account of yet ANOTHER talking animal .... you wouldnt even look at how that happened to see it it may relate to the first????

You're not half the scientist you think you are...
 
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Arikay

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And we both know that this method is prone to error and different scholars have recieved different dates. Even different modern YEC groups have recieved different dates on things such as the flood.

jobob said:
Come now......we BOTH know I can dig up geneologies from Adam all the way up to Christ...

and YOU know THATS where the 6000 years comes from....

nice try tho... :wave:
 
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kaotic

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jobob said:
Oh really...

So if you saw a snake talk and couldnt figure it out......youd totally ignore the account of yet ANOTHER talking animal .... you wouldnt even look at how that happened to see it it may relate to the first????

You're not half the scientist you think you are...
If I saw something that I couldn't explain, and then saw the samething somewhere else I would want to know what's going on and how they relate to each other. But than again find me a snake that can talk.
 
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the_cloaked_crusader

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I am feeling quite immature today. :)

Arikay:
Cloaked: I assume then you can show me the verse that literally says the earth is 6000 years old?
It seems that this is one of those close your eyes and try to ignore a problem till it goes away things. Whether Chuwg means flat circle or is unknown, there is more possibility that the bible literally says "flat circle" than "6000 year old earth."
:doh: I'll put it this way: the Bible directly states that the earth was created in 6 days. I personally think that the earth is closer to being 10,000 years old than 6,000. May I say that this is irrelevant? Or should I put it this way:
:topic: The point is this: While the Bible never says directly, "the universe revolves around the earth", it does say directly, "the earth was created in 6 days." and it comes far closer to saying "these days were 24 hours in length" than it does to saying "The earth is flat".
I do find it interesting to watch people fight so hard for the literal definition of one hebrew word and then turn around and fight against a literal definition of another hebrew word. Almost like they are picking and choosing what they take literal.
Which literal interpretation are we fighting so hard against? I though you just said you couldn't prove what the word meant. Therefore, that word is quite open to interpretation either way. I don't know how much more clear I can make this without hiring a pilot to write it in the sky . . .
Actually you are the one assuming they knew the earth was spherical when there is no evidence that they did and some of the text indicates that they did not.
One question: who gives a crumb?

And you still haven't really explained how morning and evening make sense before the creation of the sun.
jobob, you'd better start laughing now, or you'll be crying before you know it . . . :eek:


But than again find me a snake that can talk.
Show me a snake that is possessed by Satan, and I'll do it right quick. :p
 
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jobob

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jobob, you'd better start laughing now, or you'll be crying before you know it . . .
not crying so much as realizing what a waste of time this is...

EVEN if the text SAID 6000 years theyd find another angle...

In Revelation is says there will be no need for the sun because GOD will provide the light..........Nuff said....


Show me a snake that is possessed by Satan, and I'll do it right quick.

you know it gets me to watch some Christians in here proclaiming the miracle of Christ being born of a virgin, yet denying that a snake might be used of satan ....... just as the donkey was given speech by supernatural powers....
 
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the_cloaked_crusader

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lol I know. This is ridiculous. "Actually, the word 'year' is sometimes used to connotate millenia! That means we're right!"

you know it gets me to watch some Christians in here proclaiming the miracle of Christ being born of a virgin, yet denying that a snake might be used of satan ....... just as the donkey was given speech by supernatural powers....
^_^ I't really very sad. :cry:
 
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Arikay

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1) The bible does say the earth was created in 6 days more than it says the earth is flat, and it says the earth is flat more than it says it is young (generally 6000 years old). Yet most creationist groups accept 6 days and a young earth, but throw out a flat earth. Seems like they are picking and choosing. But uh oh, they often claim picking and choosing is bad and sometimes even say its not something that a "true" christian would do. Welcome to hypocritical lane. :) (Unfortunatly creationist groups have been spotted on that corner more than once. ;) )

Luckily many people have it figured out. They make their decision based on ALL verses, this includes the ones written in the earth. That way they aren't picking and choosing at all, but allowing All of gods creation to guide their understanding.


2) Either show me a verse that literally claims the snake was possessed by satan, or admit satan slithers on the ground and eats dirt or that certain verses aren't taken literally (such as the rev verse that claims the snake was satan not possessed by satan but was satan). :)


the_cloaked_crusader said:
 
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Routerider

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I see plenty of donkeys with the gift of speech on this board.
frown.gif
 
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jobob

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Yet most creationist groups accept 6 days and a young earth, but throw out a flat earth.
I can SHOW you where it SAYS it was created in 6 days.....
and I can dig up the geneogies from Adam to Christ with lifespans,

CAN YOU show me ONE SINGLE passage ANYWHERE that STATES the earth is FLAT and not just give me your uneducated guess?

DIDNT THINK SO........ end of debate..
 
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jobob

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Arikay said:
1)
2) Either show me a verse that literally claims the snake was possessed by satan, or admit satan slithers on the ground and eats dirt or that certain verses aren't taken literally (such as the rev verse that claims the snake was satan not possessed by satan but was satan). :)

I admit nothing except that a snake can talk thru supernatural power just as the Donkey did.......

And that Satan IS refered to as the ''Serpent of Old'' in Revelation....

AND that a God who can curse the ground over Adams sin could surely Curse an animal over Satans


must we keep repeating this same tripe over and over....???
 
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Arikay

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Your right, there is no point in going over this again, since no matter what I say it will be ignored (yes I expected that :) )
You say to listen to the hebrew until it contradicts what you think, then you say we should listen to the english.
Then you say I can't show you where it says "flat", but its acceptable when you can't show where it says "possessed."
Contradictions much? :D :)
 
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jobob

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Your right, there is no point in going over this again, since no matter what I say it will be ignored (yes I expected that)
DITTO

You say to listen to the hebrew until it contradicts what you think, then you say we should listen to the english.

eh...
at what point did i say ignore the hebrew.......
the english NOR the Hebrew state ''FLAT" nor imply it directly as the Revelation passage does the snake by calling satan the ''Serpent of old''...



Then you say I can't show you where it says "flat", but its acceptable when you can't show where it says "possessed."
Contradictions much?




You have been unable to provide a SINGLE passage that actually calls the earth ''flat'' in any way...
OR any that I can even piece together in study to come to that conclusion..

BUT......based on simple research I can show you that there IS example of an animal talking thru supernatural help AND I can show you the Revelation passage where Satan is called the ''Serpent of Old''

I looked at the Link provided earlier in this thread;
http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/geocentric.shtml

All I can say for these fine folk is '' CONTEXT '' !!!




.
 
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