Romanbear said:
Hi Reformationist;
A quote from you;
All people who are reformed Christians are Arminians,
My Reply;
Your assumption is wrong. I am not a reformed Catholic. This is what reformed means.
Uh...you kinda missed an important part of my statement. I didn't say "All people who are reformed Christians are Arminians." I said, "All people who are reformed Christians are Arminians, in the theological sense, before they are Calvinists." Maybe it would be clearer if I said, "All people who are Calvinists are Arminians, in the theological sense, before they are Calvinists."
Without faith my friend there is no grace for it is through faith that we acquire grace
Really? So all people who receive the grace of God have faith in Him? Or are you talking about a particular grace, like salvation?
If this were true then you wouldn't have irresistible grace.
Romanbear, you really should study reformed Christianity before you presume to use terms in relation to our beliefs without really understanding their relationship to our beliefs. All reformed Christians believe that man either
FREELY chooses God or
FREELY rejects God. The sovereign providence of God in man's disposition does not eliminate his
FREELY made choice. The irrisistibility of God's grace is often a confusing way of phrasing it and that term is most often used to preserve the "I" in the acrostic TULIP. A better way to phrase that is to say that reformed believers acknowledge the
efficacy of God's grace. That is, we believe that God's grace accomplishes that which it was purposed to accomplish.
This here because of space but you should read Romans 1:13-34 to get the full picture.
Two things. First, I have read the Book of Romans probably 100 times, in it's entirity, to include chapter one. Second, I didn't say I disagreed with you. I just asked if you believed that once a person is "turned over" to a reprobate mind they are incapable of repenting, which you didn't answer.
I want to point out that these men would not retain God in there knowledge.They must have accepted it at first then changed there minds.
What do you mean they "accepted it?" There's a huge difference between the saving knowledge of God in faith and a knowledge of God because He makes His presence obvious in His own creation.
Or maybe they turned back to there sins. At any rate God gave them up.
No. God gives none
of His sheep up. He may cease restraining the unregenerate and turn them over to their wickedness but God never ceases to grace His children.
So much for the Christian who thinks they can be saved and sin all they want.
I know of no Christian who believes such a thing.
I don't think your a Calvinist. I think your are an Arminian/ Calvinist. a Five point Calvinist would never say this.
I don't think you spend much time studying the view you oppose. All of the greatest reformed theologians say that man freely makes a choice, that is, their choice is uncoerced.
Clear to Calvinist maybe.
Clear to someone who understands that when the "free will" of man bumps up against the sovereignty of God the "free will" of man must yield.
Good try my friend.In the first place no where in scripture is it said that we are "regenerated"Or born again before we believe. Every where in scripture faith and repentance comes first. We are motivated by the conviction by the Holy Spirit through hearing the gospel. Hence we are drawn but this is not regeneration.None of the above Quote is Biblical.
Romanbear, if you are just going to continue ignoring the questions I ask but expect me to address your questions then just let me know and I'll stop wasting my time.
In the first place no where in scripture is it said that we are "regenerated"Or born again before we believe.
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Please explain how someone can serve Christ
who presently reigns over the Kingdom of God if they cannot even see it. A person must be born again
BEFORE he can see the Kingdom of God, much less seek it.
Every where in scripture faith and repentance comes first.
Really? So God gives no grace first? God doesn't have to do anything before man comes to faith? Tell me, is having faith in God and living by that faith the result of His grace or is it something that man inherently has the moral ability to do in his fallen state?
Hence we are drawn but this is not regeneration.
We're drawn, huh? What is that? Is that like "enticed" or "wooed?" What biblical verses lead you to believe that unregenerate man comes to faith because he is merely "enticed?"
If it ain't broke don't fix it. Interpretation is what is wrong with the world today. This is why we are loosing our freedom in this country the Judges interpret the constitution instead of reading it as it was meant to be.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. All people interpret everything they come in contact with.
AGAIN I ASK, if you are not going by
anyone's interpretation of the Gospel, to include your own, then how do you know what the Word tells us? Does God Himself read the Bible to you and tell you what it means?
When you read a news paper do you interpret it or do you just sit there and read what is happening in the world accepting the writers interpretation.
Goodness gracious. I'm not the person who wrote it so I interpret it based on how I understand what the writer wrote. This has to do with the literary style they use, the words they employ, the tone of their statements, etc. Yes, I absolutely have to interpret what they write. In newspapers this is not often very difficult because their insights are rarely more than just a recounting of the facts. The Bible is much more than that. The Lord Himself uses parables to explain spiritual things. If I just "sat there and read" the parable of the sower should I then just assume our Almighty is speaking of farming habits? Of course not. I have to understand what He is alluding to. This requires interpretation. Interpretation isn't what's wrong with the world today. Inaccurate interpretation, however, definitely causes problems.
Paul was complicated in his writing this is true, but not a Calvinist.
That's true. Paul was not a Calvinist. "Calvinism" is a term for people who box up people's beliefs so that they can use that term as a basis for giving their opinion little credence. Paul was a Christian. John Calvin was a Christian. I am a Christian. I believe that what John Calvin taught is what Paul, and Jesus, taught, as well as all the other Apostles.
This only in your mind. Because of the way you have been taught Calvinism. Or should I say Interpret it.
I am seriously wondering the merit in carrying on a conversation with someone who feels the need to be so condescending. How about you just share your views rather than incessantly condemn mine, okay?
Augustine originally wrote down what is called Calvinism. IMHO the original doctrine of the Catholic Church. As wrong then as it is now.
I suppose you have the correct interpretation. Oh that's right, you don't interpret the Bible. You just sit there and read it.
I even appreciate your attempt at conversion many have tried and failed.
Romanbear, I am not trying to "convert" you so "failure" isn't something I struggle with. You're a Christian, right? You've already been converted by the One who converts. God enlightens the mind of men, not me. I trust in God that His Will will be done. If you don't believe as I do then it obviously wasn't God's decree that you do so. My job isn't to try to make you think as I do. My job is to seek the Will of God. Oftentimes that leads me into conversations with people who disagree with me. When I find myself in that situation I am commanded to deal with it in godliness. Often I fail at that.
I have no desire to be a Calvinist for there are as many types of Calvinist as there are types of asprin.
I see. Well that's a very godly way of putting it.
God bless