Catholicism and Modern Judaism

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Woodsy

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Okay.
I'm a person of Jewish descent who became Born Again several years ago, but who had serious problems with Protetsant theology as well as with my own selfishness and rebelliousness, an as a result, backslid repeatedly until finally rejecting Christ.
Well, I can't hide from the Truth, and so I have rededicated myself to the Christ who has never left me despite my might sinning. He has welcomed me back, indeed let me know that I had never truly left.
This is an amazing thing.
As I've stated a few times, I am meeting with a priest at my church to begin the RCIA. What amazing things I have found in the Catholic Church! Some of the things I love are the Church's stand against many Liberal cause celebres such as abortion and homosexual behavior.
Here's the meat of my question (finally!):
From what I have been studying, I feel that I might be happiest as a Traditional Catholic.
However, everywhere I go to learn more about Traditional Catholicism I see a major emphasis against today's Jews and modern Judaism.
As a andult, before I came to Christ, I studied Judaism and was appalled at some of the things I found in Rabbinical teachings. I was amazed to see how much of what we consider Jewish today (i.e. - yarmulkes, all-white tzitzit, no cheeseburgers, etc.) is actually the creation of Rabbis - in some cases acting in contradiction of Torah.
And so I sought to be a good, Torah believing Jew while rejecting Talmud. What a hard row to hoe! Rabbinic Judaism has defined itself as the only valid Judaism today. Sure, there are the Karaites, who reject the Talmud as man's invention, but they are a miniscule sect with relatively very few in America.
I am also saddened by the fact that so many prominent names in Socialism, Communism, Secularism, Atheism, Buddhism, Liberalism, Gay Rights, Abortion, Anarchism, etc. are Jewish. I cringe whenever Abe Foxman of the ADL complains about ridiculous things, and whenever I see a Jew speaking for the ACLU. And I do think that the charge of anti-semitism has been thrown around so much as to begin to seem silly. Of course, I still acknowledge the vast number of truly anti-semitic attacks which have been occurring in France and other nations.
To disagree with Jews is not anti-semitic, and to disagree with Zionism is not anti-semitic. Neither is proselytizing Jews an anti-semitic behavior. IMHO, of course.

But I still can't help but be made uncomfortable by such a strong feeling against Jews which I see in many Traditional Catholic websites.
I am a Jew, and really cannot ever stop being a Jew. Not religiously, of course, but culturally, ethnically, etc. I am not a "self-hating Jew." In Christ I have found peace and happiness such as I have never known before. It can be a difficult place to be. But I have to feel that, as a Jew, I would still be welcomed as a true follower of Christ and as a true Catholic. I am disturbed by reading how many Catholics so readily assume that Jewish converts to Catholicism do so for false reasons and are not really Catholic.
 

Metanoia02

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Tribe,

I would like to say thank you for your honesty and sharing your thought as you become more aquainted with the Catholic Church.

Being a convert from the Lutheran faith, I am still finding my way in the Church. I don't mean on a personal level, because I have many friends and group of Catholics I fellowship with. What I mean is idealogically. Similar to what you are describing.

I too am attracted to the more tradition Catholic communities and practices. I abhor the destruction that liberalism has caused the Church. It will take the rest of my life before I will see it recover.

But what is interesting is there are a number of differing opinons and schools of thought as to which direction the Church should take. You can find intellectual and idealogical communities that are of a similar mind as you are. This has only been made possible by the Internet.
I never knew there were people outside my parish that thought the way I do.

On the subject of Judaism the schools of thought run the gamut. Some of the more liberal theologians don't think that Jews need to be converted, they still have the original covenent with God. They say that we should not evangelize them and bring them to Christ. More conservative Catholics would welcome Jews into the Church as they would anyone else. Some of the extreme traditionalist believe they lost there opportunity when Christ was on earth and they basically blew it. Obviously somewhere in these schools of thought you will find a place you can be comfortable.
 
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Tribe said:
Thank you, Metanoia02.
Even as a Jew, I believe that Jews must come to Christ. Else why would all of his Apostles have been Jews?

To the jewish convert:

First of all I would like to welcome you to the Traditional Catholic faith. As a jew you have sort of a double hurdle to overcome, and an exercise in great humility to encounter. The reason for this is because the jews have extra hardened hearts than the Gentiles. As a result, God has subjected them to a greater scourging in many ways. In addition, the Church has had to be quite vehement against them, and her official doctrine is that obstinate jews are extremely evil. But you yourself demonstrate that even the greatest evil can be overcome, in this your conversion. As a Catholic you are fully in Christ, you are no less than any Gentile. The difference that divided you from Christ no longer exists, and you are one in Christ with all who believe. Therefore have no fear. Nevertheless, speak HARSHLY to the apostate jews you know who have now become your enemies, because this is indeed the charitable thing to do. It is so easy for the jews to become comfortable thinking that, since they seem to dominate many things, they can ignore Christ! When the Church condemns jews, she speaks of those who refuse to convert, not those who have converted.

Here are some quotes from the fathers and popes on jewry in general:

The Gentiles have attained to justice, but Israel has not come unto the law of justice. Why? Because they sought it not by faith, for they stumbled at the Stumbing Stone. (Romans 9:30-32)

Our Lord Jesus Christ referred to Himself as "the Stone" (Mt. 21:44). Lying on the ground, it shakes whoever falls over it; coming from on high, it crushes the proud. The Jews have already been shaken by their previous stumble. What awaits them is to be crushed by His Coming. (St. Augustine) 1

Christ is the Stone which was rejected which has become the cornerstone: nor is there salvation in any other. For, there is no other name under Heaven whereby we must be saved. ( Acts 4:10-12)

Many shall come from the East and the West, and sit down in the kingdom of Heaven, but the children of the kingdom shall be cast out, into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (St. Matthew 8:11-12)

Early and often did the Lord send His messengers to them, for He had compassion on His people. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His warnings, and scoffed at His prophets, till the anger of the Lord against His people was so inflamed that there was no remedy. (II Paralipomenon 36:15-16)

Therefore, I say to you: the kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof. (St. Matthew 21:43)

Do not add to your sins by saying that the Covenant is both theirs and ours. Yes, it is ours, but they lost it forever. (St. Barnabas) 2

Christ annuls the First Covenant to establish the Second. For, if that First Covenant had been faultless, then there would be no place for the Second. They did not persevere in My Covenant, saith the Lord, and I disregarded them. (Hebrews 10:9; 8:7-9)

So clearly was the transition then made from the Synagogue to the Church that, when the Lord gave up His soul, the veil of the Temple was rent in two. (Pope St. Leo the Great) 3

Since His spouse, the Synagogue, refused to receive Him, Christ answered: "This is a harlot!" and gave her a bill of divorce. (St. Vincent Ferrer) 4

Dreadful are the ends of a wicked race! (Wisdom 3:19)

Ungrateful for favors and forgetful of benefits, the Jews return insult for kindness and impious contempt for goodness. They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future grow insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear. (Pope Gregory IX) 5

Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection. (Pope Innocent III) 6

It would be licit, according to custom, to hold Jews in perpetual servitude because of their crime. (St. Thomas Aquinas) 7

Let the Gospel be preached to them and, if they remain obstinate, let them be expelled. (Pope Leo VII) 8

Let their eyes be dim so that they cannot see, and let them walk bent-backed forever with a heavy load. (Psalm 68:24)

The Jews wander over the entire earth, their backs bent over and their eyes cast downward, forever calling to our minds the curse they carry with them. (St. Augustine) 9

As wanderers, they must remain upon the earth until their faces are filled with shame and they seek the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Pope Innocent III) 10

Thou shalt eat bread and cover it with the dung that comes out of a man. Thus shall the children of Israel eat their bread all filthy among the nations wither I will cast them out, saith the Lord. (Ezechiel 4:12-13)

The Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets and have persecuted us, do not please God, and they have become adversaries to all men, to fill up their sin always; for the wrath of God has come upon them to the end. (I Thessalonians 2:14-16)

One who dies a Jew will be ******. (St. Vincent Ferrer) 11

Those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the Law of Moses and who do not believe in Christ before death shall not be saved; especially they who curse this very Christ in the synagogues; who curse everything by which they might obtain salvation and escape the vengeance of fire. (St. Justin the Martyr) 12

Cursed shall you be in the city, cursed in the field. Cursed be your barn and your stores. Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb, the fruit of your ground, the herds of your oxen, and the flocks of your sheep. Cursed shall you be coming in and cursed going out. (Deuteronomy 28:16-19)

Jews are cursed and covered with malediction. The curse has penetrated them like water in their bowels and oil in their bones. They are cursed in the city and cursed in the country, cursed in their coming in and cursed in their going out. Cursed are the fruits of their loins, of their lands, of their flocks; cursed are their cellars, their granaries, their shops, their food, the very crumbs off their tables! (St. Agobard) 13

The most holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the Mosaic Law cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. Every one, therefore, who observes circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the Law, the Church declares not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation (Council of Florence) 14

No man cometh to the Father but by Me. (St. John 14:6)

Whosoever denies the Son does not have the Father. (I St. John 2:23)

He who honors not the Son, honors not the Father Who sent Him. He who hates Me, hates My Father also. (St. John 5:23; 15:23)

If any man love not Our Lord Jesus Christ, let him be anathema. (I Corinthians 16:22)

O Jewish hearts, harder than rocks! (St. Ambrose) 15

For all the House of Israel is a hard forehead and an obstinate heart. (Ezechiel 3:7)

O intelligence coarse, dense, and cow-like, which did not recognize God even in His own works! Perhaps the Jew will complain that I call his intelligence bovine, but his intelligence is less than bovine: "The ox knows his Owner, and the *** knows his Master's crib, but Israel has not known Me, and My people have not understood" (Isaias 1:3). You see, O Jew, I am easier on you than your own prophet! (St. Bernard) 16

Canon Law forbids all intercourse with Jews. (St. Bernardine of Feltre) 17

Indeed, if any one of the clergy or faithful has taken a meal with Jews, he is to abstain from Communion so that he may be reformed. (Council of Elvira) 18

How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion. (St. John Chrysostom) 19

Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ. The Jews held Him; the Jews insulted Him; the Jews bound Him; they crowned Him with thorns; they scourged Him; they hanged Him upon a tree. (St. Augustine) 20

Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their fathersÆ faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness! (St. Gregory of Nyssa) 21

Woe to the sinful nation, a people loaded with iniquity, a wicked seed, ungracious children. They have forsaken the Lord, they have blasphemed the Holy One of Israel, they have gone away backwards. And when you stretch forth your hands, I will turn away My eyes from you, saith the Lord; and when you multiply prayer, I will not hear, for your hands are full of blood. (Isaias 1:4,15)

And such are the prayers of the Jews, for when they stretch forth their hands in prayer, they only remind God-the-Father of their sin against His Son. And at every stretching-forth of their hands, they only make it obvious that they are stained with the blood of Christ. For they who persevere in their blindness inherit the blood-guilt of their fathers; for they cried out: "His blood be on us and on our children" (Mt. 27:25). (St. Basil the Great) 22

Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the End of Time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood! (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori) 23
 
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Credo

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Tribe,

First let me welcome you Christ's Church! I pray that the Truth of the Roman Catholic Church will inspire you and continue to make you the child of God that we all should be.

I'm not sure what you mean by being happier as a Traditional Catholic. I consider myself a Traditional Catholic as I hold to the Orthodox teachings of the church and submit to the authority of the Magisterium, which is the pope and all the bishops united with him. By this, I would call myself a "conservative" Catholic, rather than a "liberal" Catholic who want to shape the church around their own way of thinking rather than submit to authority. I enjoy the pomp and circumstance that surrounds Sacred Liturgy and the mystery that the Sacraments contain. Many "liberals", in fact some in my own family, would rather do away with all the mystery and fashion our churches with a more Protestant mood which throws away 2000 years of theology and teaching.

But, if you mean the ultra-traditional movements that have swept into the church over the past few decades, I would advise caution. As was stated in another thread, many of these groups are in formal schism with the Roman Catholic Church and do not submit to the authority of the Magisterium.

As far as Jewish converts are concerned, I welcome them with open arms. I have met several Jewish converts who have found the fulfillment of the Old Covenant within the Catholic Church. This, to me, is the essential reason for Jews to convert, as this is what Christ established. In fact, the Catholic Church is more Jewish than most people realise, and it fascinates me to no end!

May the Lord Bless thee and keep thee!
 
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Metanoia02

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Tribe said:
Thank you, Metanoia02.
Even as a Jew, I believe that Jews must come to Christ. Else why would all of his Apostles have been Jews?

As you see there is divergent attitudes towards Jews amoung Catholics, even on this board. Having never witnessed some of these extremes (except in cyberspace) I don;t think you will run into some of more extreme attitudes.

Welcome!
 
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Metanoia02 said:
As you see there is divergent attitudes towards Jews amoung Catholics, even on this board. Having never witnessed some of these extremes (except in cyberspace) I don;t think you will run into some of more extreme attitudes.

Welcome!

Metanoia,

THERE IS ONE CATHOLIC ATTITUDE. And that is that the jews are an evil race for as long as they remain obstinate. You either accept the testimony of the Fathers and POPES who are authoritative or you make up your own faith. I will hope you choose the former.

Vatican 2 is a fraud, and if that is what you go by you are in damning heresy.

Likewise all heretics are blasphemers are perditious, as also taught by the Fathers.

The Catholic faith DOES NOT CHANGE. If false religions used to be evil, they are STILL EVIL. We do not sit back and reflect on the "profound greatness" of Martin Luther and other ****** rebels like JP2 wants us to do. JP2 is as fradulent as the council he follows.
 
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Woodsy

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Thank you to all who offer welcome.
And who also offer food for thought.
Realise that the manner in which you comport yourselves speaks well for the Catholic Church and its attitudes. It was only my exposure to Catholic thought on this board which led me to invesigate the Church's claims.
I realize that, among Believers, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and divisiveness is not my goal.
 
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CatholicCrusader1095 said:
Metanoia,

THERE IS ONE CATHOLIC ATTITUDE. And that is that the jews are an evil race for as long as they remain obstinate. You either accept the testimony of the Fathers and POPES who are authoritative or you make up your own faith. I will hope you choose the former.

Vatican 2 is a fraud, and if that is what you go by you are in damning heresy.

Likewise all heretics are blasphemers and perditious, as also taught by the Fathers.

The Jews are enemies of God only with regard to the Good News, and enemies only for your sake; but as the chosen people, they are still loved by God, loved for the sake of their ancestors. God never takes back his gifts or revokes his choice. [Romans 11:28-29]

Notice that St. Paul says that the Jews are loved by God, NOT an evil race.
 
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Credo said:
The Jews are enemies of God only with regard to the Good News, and enemies only for your sake; but as the chosen people, they are still loved by God, loved for the sake of their ancestors. God never takes back his gifts or revokes his choice. [Romans 11:28-29]

Notice that St. Paul says that the Jews are loved by God, NOT an evil race.

The jews are "ENEMIES OF GOD", and "ENEMIES" OF CATHOLICS as stated in that quote. If being an enemy of God isn't evil then you're a blind man.

The Popes and Councils call the jewish religion EVIL and the jewish people who support it EVIL. In the same way it calls the Prods and other heretics E VIL. For example, St. Ignatius of Antioch calls heretics "BEASTS IN THE SHAPE OF MEN".

Shape up, nobody who is serious about the Catholic Faith wants to hear Vatican 2 truisms invented by closet modernists. We have a FIGHT TO WIN here and its not going to be done with Vatican 2.
 
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Credo

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"The Jews are enemies of God only with regard to the GOOD NEWS, and enemies only for YOUR SAKE;" who's sake, the sake of the Gentiles. Realize that if the Jews hadn't rejected Christ, salvation would have never been brought to the Gentiles. "but as the CHOSEN PEOPLE, they are STILL LOVED BY GOD" and I thought God hates evil...the Jews must not be evil as God loves them. "God NEVER takes back His gifts or revokes His choice."

And I thought only Protestants took Scripture out of context. By the way, St. Paul's Letter to the Romans has nothing to do with Vatican II. I suggest you get a copy of the Letters from Vatican II and do some prayerful reading. You will find that no Dogmas nor Doctrines of the Roman Catholic faith were changed, only people with their own agenda introduced things they thought the Council would say or should have said.
 
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Credo said:
"The Jews are enemies of God only with regard to the GOOD NEWS, and enemies only for YOUR SAKE;" who's sake, the sake of the Gentiles. Realize that if the Jews hadn't rejected Christ, salvation would have never been brought to the Gentiles. "but as the CHOSEN PEOPLE, they are STILL LOVED BY GOD" and I thought God hates evil...the Jews must not be evil as God loves them. "God NEVER takes back His gifts or revokes His choice."

And I thought only Protestants took Scripture out of context. By the way, St. Paul's Letter to the Romans has nothing to do with Vatican II. I suggest you get a copy of the Letters from Vatican II and do some prayerful reading. You will find that no Dogmas nor Doctrines of the Roman Catholic faith were changed, only people with their own agenda introduced things they thought the Council would say or should have said.

This is absolute and UTTER NONSENSE coming from you, and it is also evil. First of all false religions are NOT GOOD and praiseworthy. To say that they are is condemned by Pius XI. The opposite of good is EVIL. False religions are evil. You need to more closely examine the teachings of the Church before Vatican 2 because you appear to be on the wide road to damnation!

Here are some basic errors of Vatican 2:

http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/The_Principal_Heresies_of_Vatican_II.html


You are proving your dishonestly as well. The idea that the jews are "beloved of God" could mean those jews that convert to the True Faith. Even if it somehow meant all jews, that does not mean they cease to be enemies of that same God. Being an enemy of God is EVIL.

You are a deluder of the simple minded. The wise will see through your sophistry.
 
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Metanoia02

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Tribe said:
I think that this is the most dissent between Catholics that I have ever personally witnessed on this board.
It's a bit disconcerting...

I do not consider CC1095 to be Catholic. He is not faithful to the current Pope and the Magesteritum of the Church. This is one of the distinctives of the Catholic faith. We can not pick and chose which Popes we follow.
 
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Metanoia02 said:
I do not consider CC1095 to be Catholic. He is not faithful to the current Pope and the Magesteritum of the Church. This is one of the distinctives of the Catholic faith. We can not pick and chose which Popes we follow.

Well good for you heretic. I will follow the original Vatican, not your "Vatican 2". The FAITH DOES NOT CHANGE. It is dogma that we are only to believe what has been taught always, everywhere, by all. VATICAN 2 IS A NEW RELIGION, an INVENTION. The heretic here is you. You can follow your new wave bishops, but I will follow the Church of the Ages, the ETERNAL ROME.


The papal Bull Cum Ex Apostalatus Officio states that if a heretic attempts to ascend to the papal throne, HE DOES NOT BECOME THE POPE. John Paul 2 is an heretic. He rejects numerous dogmas and clear teachings of the pre Vatican 2 magisterium.

Pope Honorius was an heretic, who was slain with the sword of Anathema by his successor Pope Leo. Popes are not exempt from error or from attack. Popes are also not infallible if they are not teaching the Faith of the Fathers.
Therefore, like Sergius and his Monophysite comrades who followed Honorius to their destruction, so you will follow JP2 if you reject the eternal Faith.

Vatican 1 tells us that the UNIVERSAL (place) and ORDINARY (time) magisterium is INFALLIBLE. Vatican 2 does not teach what has been taught in every place and time. It teaches NEW DOCTRINES PREVIOUSLY UNHEARD OF. Therefore it is not infallible, it is not of the faith, and is EVEN HERETICAL because it contradicts that faith.

Anyone who reads the Church Fathers and all past popes with honesty can see they are at odds with Vatican 2.

You seem to dispute the idea that a pope can fall into heresy and promote heresy. POPE HONORIUS PROVES YOU WRONG. The Tradition IS CLEAR. The priority is to KEEP THE FAITH OF THE AGES, not to follow the present pope just because he is the pope! St. Athanasius described a Church that would one day only be reduced to a handful who retained the true faith. The scripture is also clear- THERE WILL BE A GREAT APOSTACY.

Anyone who is not blind can see the Church today teaches differently from what it taught before V2 in almost every area, from whether the death penalty is moral and deserved, to the state of false religions.
 
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MariaRegina

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Tribe said:
I think that this is the most dissent between Catholics that I have ever personally witnessed on this board.
It's a bit disconcerting...

My dearest joy in Christ: Christ is Risen!

Sadly there is division on this earth. Our Blessed Lord and Messiah told us that He came not to bring peace but the sword, in that there will be division among us due to our differences in faith. Christ is not a war monger. He is the Prince of peace, but we Christians wrongly tear each other apart and rush to call one another heretics. This is not charitable.

No matter what Christian Church you visit, you will find divisions and stupid believers who don't have a clue about the Gospel of Christ. It's the heart that really matters. Christ became man so that man could become deified (by grace). We have to focus on Christ. In Holy Baptism, we are asked, "Have you put on Christ?" That is the question we should all ask ourselves, so that we can respond, "Yes, I have put on Christ."

Within Orthodoxy I found Jews who said that they were now completed Jews. The Orthodox Church is very similar to a Jewish Synagogue if you just visually remove the Icons. Our chant is very close to Jewish chant - in fact, if you visit an OCA Church, you will find chant that sounds almost identical to Jewish chants, and they will transport you back in time and space. You will enter heavenly worship.

If you want to stay Roman Catholic, then visit the Byzantine Catholic Churches (Maronites, Melkites, Carpatho-Russian and Armenian). There you will experience chants that seem familiar because they come from the Orthodox Tradition with the blessings of the Vatican.

No matter what Christian Church you visit, you will find sinners and wolves in sheep's clothing who don't have a clue about the Gospel of Christ. It's the heart that really matters. Christ became man so that man could become deified (by grace). We have to focus on Christ.

Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and save us.

Your sister in Christ,

Elizabeth
 
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chanterhanson said:
My best friends refused to speak with me, but I no longer could worship in a Catholic Church where the formula for Holy Communion had been altered and the Creed had been watered down.

You know, I don't go into the Orthodox forum and make disparaging comments about your faith. I'd ask it if you could show us Catholics the same respect. Thank you.
 
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