Messianic Gentiles?

I don't know the answer....

but, we are Gentile Christians and now go to a Messianic church.

When asked what kind of church we go to I just say Messianic... I don't say Jew or Gentile.

We've just gone to the Messianic church for 3 months now... so, I don't know that I feel "messianic" yet. Maybe I will after I go through Hebrew class? I don't know. I think when the time comes I'll just say I'm Messianic and leave it at that... I don't know.

Yesterday at 05:59 PM Calvimenian said this in Post #1

To a Jewish believer, is it appropriate for a gentile who believes in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God who became the once for all sacrifice for our sins, to refer to him/herself as a Messianic Gentile? The reason for my question is that the more I study the scriptures, the more obvious it becomes that everything about my faith in Christ has Jewish origins.

From the Moses and the prophets, to Jesus and His first disciples and the early church, to the writers of the New Testament who confirmed what the prophets foretold concerning a Redeemer who would come from the house of Israel, it's a Jewish scene! Jesus Himself made it plain that He came to seek "the lost sheep of Israel." Through the inspired writing of Paul, we learn that the the gospel which is the power of God unto Salvation is "to the Jew first -- and also to the gentile." And indeed Paul's first stop for sharing the Good News in any city was the synagogue or Jewish residents.

For more than 20 years I have noticed that -- just as in the first century A.D. -- whenever and wherever the Gospel is presented to Jews first, many gentiles also believe. Most of all, I am thankful that the words of Jesus and the God-breathed writings of the Old Testament prophets and the Apostle Paul make it clear that gentiles who choose to believe in the same message of the same Messiah can also be "grafted in" to the family of believers.

In light of this, is the term Messianic Gentile appropriate?

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Hi, I am not Jewish but I consider myself a Messianic Gentile believer. Why ? Because I believe in being Torah observant, keeping the feasts, and accept Yeshua as the Messiah, etc. I do not adopt Christian teachings that are not supported by the bible just as Messianic Jews do not.

Personally, I do not consider a Messianic Gentile a Christian that sees the roots of Christianity being Jewish. I feel it entails more than that, but some would disagree with that.. of course.

Here is the definition for Messianic Jew according to the MJAA, the largest association of Jewish believers in the world,

"Messianic Jews are Jews who have accepted Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of Israel and Saviour of the world, and maintain Jewish identity and worship style."

Source:http://mjaa.org/about2.html

So using that definition, it would lead me to believe that a Messianic Gentile would be a Gentile that has accepted Yeshua as the promised Messiah of Israel and Savior of the world that has adopted and maintains a Jewish worship style.

In other words, if you simply believe in Yeshua but are a Christian and go to church and accept Christian practices that are not Jewish in origin, I would say no it is not appropriate to label oneself a Messianic Gentile. But that is just MY PERSONAL OPINION..nothing more..

But hey, you have a right to call yourself whatever you want..

I think you will find people to support your position and those that will oppose it. The choice of what you would like to be labeled as is up to you.

Right on this CF, since you are Gentile, you still would only be labeled as Christian by some simply because you are Gentile.. so I suspect it doesn't matter what you call yourself, people will still attempt to label you what they think you are or should be.

Recently, my Rabbi suggested to me not to label myself as just a Gentile because I am grafted in to Israel, (he is 100% Jewish by the way) because I have adopted the Messianic faith and live as such,  he says my former self is left behind and we are all one in Yeshua. And he doesn't call non-Jews that accept the Messianic faith Gentiles, he says there is neither Jew nor Gentile but a new man in Messiah Yeshua. We are all believers in Yeshua.

I think you should just call yourself whatever you want.. as long as you know.. that's all that matters.

Blessings,
Missy



 

Shalom everyone,

I have been doing allot of reading since around 14 weeks ago. About a month ago I joined a Messianic fellowship.
I have came across documents and posts that have said the term gentile can mean non-believer. I can't remember where these are at this time but I tell you that STUCK in my Mind. So I call myself a non-Jew. When asked as Missy has said "I call myself a Messianic", yet I also add the word "Believer" Now since we non-Jews are Grafted into the Main Vine which the Jews were grafted in before the Messiah came and since many of them believed not they are cut off for a time(Another thread to come if someone cares to go there, I am not knowledgable enough but believe it is said in the Bible) Since we non-Jews are Grafted in I would think we are therefore Messianic Jews as much as the Jews are themselves are Messianic Jews in the sense of being grafted into the Vine, since I believe we too should observe the Torah as well. In all the reading I have done, and believe me I have been reading page after page on this, I have come to that conclusion. That to is another thread which I see some of the issues are already there in threads. Since the Jews who are one of the Tribes of Israel have been the Chosen People of YHWH and since Yeshua means YHWH's Salvation, to me that implies we are as I said above grafted into, not the other way around as so many have said for centuries since the Original Apostles and Disciples of Yeshua left the seen of the New Born Assembly that was still in infancy when the 2nd and 3rd Centuries came to be.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,
Tag

Actually Tag, I think you are mixing up two different horticultural terms.

Yeshua is the True Vine ( before the crash I had posted that in Hebrew)

But what we, as Gentile believers, are grafted into, is the Olive tree. Yeshua is the root of that tree, the Jews ( which today include from many tribes, not just Judah, my Rabbi is from the tribe of Benjamin and a new good friend from the Levitical tribe, they aren't all lost as some teach ) Are the Olive Tree, we as Gentiles are "Wild Olive branches" that are grafted onto this original tree.

Romans 11

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


John 15 speaks of Yeshua as the True Vine:

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.


Beautiful words from our loving Savior!

I apologize for forgeting to mention the tribe of Benjamin. I understand there were most likely others from the other tribes that were in the Kingdom of Judah when the Northern Kingdom was taken.

Shalom,
Tag

MissytheButterfly said:

"Messianic Jews are Jews who have accepted Yeshua (Jesus) of Nazareth as the promised Messiah of Israel and Saviour of the world, and maintain Jewish identity and worship style."
So using that definition, it would lead me to believe that a Messianic Gentile would be a Gentile that has accepted Yeshua as the promised Messiah of Israel and Savior of the world that has adopted and maintains a Jewish worship style.
Recently, my Rabbi suggested to me not to label myself as just a Gentile because I am grafted in to Israel, (he is 100% Jewish by the way) because I have adopted the Messianic faith and live as such,  he says my former self is left behind and we are all one in Yeshua. And he doesn't call non-Jews that accept the Messianic faith Gentiles, he says there is neither Jew nor Gentile but a new man in Messiah Yeshua. We are all believers in Yeshua.
 

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Missy I respect your answer. There is niether Jew nor Gentile. If we accepted Yahushua, the Anointed of YHWH, as our Redeemer, and are baptized in His Name, the old self is gone and we are becoming a new creature. Paul said in respect of headcoverings, but it pertains to all things, in 1 Cor. 11:1-16, "Become imitators of me, as I also am of Messiah. And I praise you, brothers, that you remember me in every way and keep the traditions as I delivered them to you."
When Paul was Saul, he was the best of the Pharisees knowing the Torah inside out. After his conversion he spent time in Arabia being un-taught and re-taught by the Messiah Himself, Gal. 1:12. Yet Paul here is telling us to maintain the traditions he passed on to the early church. Hosea 4:6 says "My people perish for lack of knowledge." 1 Thess. 5:21 says to, "prove all things and keep that which is good".
I have found through Scripture that His lost sheep are "the Remnant" neither Jew nor Gentile, Messianic (Messiah followers) or Christian (Christ followers, both meaning - followers of the Anointed One of YHWH), as they are all new creatures in the Anointed One of YHWH, remembering Paul "in every way" when they keep "the traditions as" Paul delivered them.
Question should be, it seems, what traditions did Paul deliver? It was not all of those traditions of the Pharisees because our Blessed Redeemer denounced their ways, Matt. 23. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:12
Paul taught what he was taught for three years in the desert of Arabia by Yahushua the Messiah, His "law" of mercy and "liberty". The same law taught to the Israelites but from a new prespective, one of love and compassion not just duty.
From my finite understanding I believe , as Acts 3:21 states,
"(Messiah) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which Elohim hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began." that all divine institutions will be restored before His return. Our wisdom is as filthy rags but it appears that restition of all things has begun, big time. Marriage - Gen. 2, all of His appointed times - Lev. 23, His Name - Ps. 68:4, His Son's Name - John 5:43, His language - Jer. 8:8, Idolitry exposed - Rev. 13 and 18, and others that maybe only He knows will be restored to the Remnant, "Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commandments of Elohim and the belief of Yahushua." Rev. 14:12 May He bless us al with eyesalve that we may see His truth for this time.

What about Gentiles? Aren't they exempt from keeping the Torah? Well yes, that is correct -- but please notice that Gentiles are not included in the new covenant [Hebrews 8:8-10]. Notice, also, that Paul refers to Gentiles in the past tense in 1Corinthians 12:2. Also Paul talks of Gentiles being grafted into Israel in Romans 11:17. It is therefore incumbent on anyone being grafted into the commonwealth of Israel to abide by the terms of the covenant because they are no longer Gentiles.

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This is located at: http://www.alphamall.com/teshuva/begin.htm

This is the most sense I have seen since my searchings to understand where non-Jews stand since Yeshua first said He has come to the Lost Sheep of Israel.

Paul didn't come till around 9 years after Yeshua was gone from the surface of the Earth and is in Heaven. That is when the Gentiles were brought into the Assembly.

So I see now that I am a Messianic Jew since I am grafted in to the True Vine of Israel.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,
Tag

Im confused...does that mean that Gentiles (who are Christians...not Messianics as opposed to Messianic Gentiles) are not grafted or saved because they do not follow the jewish customs and laws?

Shalom HopeTheyDance,

Good question. I don't profess to know a great deal for I doing allot of reading and studies on Messianic Judaism and therefore I can only point you to articles that I find or have found.

The Good News According to Yochanan (John)
4:22 You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

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Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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The Good News According to Matthew
5:17 Don't think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

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The Good News According to Matthew
4:4 But he answered, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'
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7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' 23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
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16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
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19:16 Behold, one came to him and said, "Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"
17 He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
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23:1 Then Yeshua spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees sat on Moses' seat. 3 All things therefore whatever they tell you to observe, observe and do, but don't do their works; for they say, and don't do.

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The Good News According to Luke
16:16 The Torah and the Prophets were until Yochanan. From that time the Good News of the Kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Torah to become void.
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23:50 Behold, a man named Joseph, who was a member of the council, a good and righteous man 51 (he had not consented to their counsel and deed), from Arimathaea, a city of the Judeans, who was also waiting for the Kingdom of God: 52 this man went to Pilate, and asked for Yeshua's body. 53 He took it down, and wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid him in a tomb that was cut in stone, where no one had ever been laid. 54 It was the day of the Preparation, and the Sabbath was drawing near. 55 The women, who had come with him out of Galilee, followed after, and saw the tomb, and how his body was laid. 56 They returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the Sabbath they rested according to the commandment.

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If these people who are Jews followed and Believed what Yeshua taught then why are they Obeying the Commandments of Torah? I can't remember, yet isn't the preparation of spices and ointments also taught in the Torah?

Yochanan's First Letter 5:1 Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world: your faith.

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If you have Faith then you learn what you should do to please G_D don't you? And G_D did give the Torah as a guide for us to live our lives didn't he? Who then shall we obey Man's doctrines or G_D's ways He has taught since Moses? And who did Salvation come from again?

The Good News According to Yochanan (John)
4:22 You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.

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So tell me do we go by ordances that YHWH gave to Moses and the Prophets and have the testamony of the Messiah Yeshua? Or shall we believe the many lies going throughout the world since the Messiah and the original Apostles and Disciples were gone from the scene? For when the Fathers(as some call them) are away the children must play.

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,
Tag

*Edited Comment
Please note in the Messianic Forum rules that the Messianic Forum is for Messianic Jews and Gentiles to share discussions about Messianic Judaism. Those that are not Messianic may post questions but are not to question or make comments in reference to Messianic Beliefs and their Biblical backing.

goy, goyim Gentile(s), non-Jews. The plural form "goyim" is used in the Bible and translated as "nations." It later came to mean all other nations (besides Israel), and thence to individuals outside the fold of Israel (non-Jews).

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This above definition of goy and goyim is from:
http://www.ksyonline.org/terms.html

To me that says allot about who we(non-Jew believers) are in terms of believing in the Jew Yeshua ha-Mashiach. We are part of the "fold of Israel"
So tell me since my parents are not Jews and I am part of the "fold of Israel" because of my faith in Yeshua and that I believe we should observe the Torah, what should I call what I follow? As I said in a previous post that I think we would be Messianic Jews in that sense, but I have also said how about "Israelite", yet I think again, how about Messianic. Yet you know that term has been so mixed with others saying they are Messianic yet they don't observe the Torah, I have to say that I am Messianic Jew since I am of the "fold of Israel". Or shall I say I am "of the Way"?

May the peace that transcends all understanding be with you,
Tag

So tell me since my parents are not Jews and I am part of the "fold of Israel" because of my faith in Yeshua and that I believe we should observe the Torah, what should I call what I follow? As I said in a previous post that I think we would be Messianic Jews in that sense, but I have also said how about "Israelite", yet I think again, how about Messianic. Yet you know that term has been so mixed with others saying they are Messianic yet they don't observe the Torah, I have to say that I am Messianic Jew since I am of the "fold of Israel". Or shall I say I am "of the Way"?
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That is a good question Tag. From what I understand we are not "Jews" unless descended from the tribe of Judah. All believers, Jews and Gentiles, that keep the commandments (Torah) of YHWH and that have the faith of Yahushua belong to "Spiritual Israel" therefore are Israelites (Overcomers). You are right that not all Messianics observe Torah as Messianic simple means "believers of Messiah" (followers of Christ with a Hebrew flair). Of the "Way" is a proper term used in ancient times to describe the early Christians but I fear it has a cult-type sound today, I maybe wrong. I would like to know what others on this forum think about "the Way"? But for sure, I am convicted that until our Blessed Redeemer comes and gives each of us a new name, I should refer to myself as a "spiritual Israelite" because while I am an overcomer in the spirit, my body is still made of flesh and subject to falling to temptation. And while we (the Remnant) will be spotless before He comes, I have a long way to go to reach that point. But I trust in His promises to finish that which He began in me. Praise His name.

HI CROSS

Missy I respect your answer. There is niether Jew nor Gentile. If we accepted

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I THINK YOU MIS UNDERSTAND THE POINT GIVEN.
SCRIPTURE ALSO SAYS THAT THERE IS NO MORE MALE OR FEMALE.
LET ME CHECK MY BOXERS. OOPS, LOOKS LIKE IM STILL MALE LOL.
SO INDEED, THERE IS STILL JEW AND GENTILE. HOWEVER, THE SPIRIT OF MEN ARE ALL THE SAME. BUT AS THE BODY IS CONCERNED EVERYONE IS WHAT THEY ARE.

NOW WHAT MAKES A MESSIANIC STRANGER MESSIANIC?
THE ONLY WAY HE CAN BE CONSIDERED A SEAT AMOUNG THE BELIEVING JEWS IS IF HE IS A NOACHIDE- FOLLOWING THE MTZVOT(COMMANDMENTS) GIVEN TO NOAH AND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR ALL OF HIS CHILDREN. HOWEVER, WE KNOW THAT THOSE OUTSIDE THE PEOPLE OF yISRAEL HAD FORGOTTEN IT COMPLETELY!
SO, ARENT YOU SUPPOSED TO BE A SON OF NOAH?
ALL OF THE POEPLE?
SO THEN WHY ARE YOU(LIKE THE HISPANICS) EATING BLOOD SAUSAGES, AND PORK, AND SNAKES. IT SEEMS THAT YOU KNOW NOT OF CLEAN AND UNCLEAN.
IF YOUR LIKE NOACH AND DO WHAT G-D WANTS YOU TO DO/- YOU KNOW GENESESIS 6:22./
THEN JUST DO WHAT G-D TELLS YOU TO DO , DOING AWAY WITH NO PART OF HIS WORD. THIS IS HIS POINT OF VIEW!!/

AND CROSS,

So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. James 2:12

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NO DOUBT YOUR RIGHT, PSALMS 119:45
AGREED

SHALOM U'BRACHA