creation groaneth and travaileth

JohnR7 said:

Romans 8:21-22
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why is it that evolutionary theory never seems to take into consideration that the world we live in, is a fallen world. This world is not the way God created it to be, or intended it to be. Yet God does have a plan and all of creation will be restored to God purpose and His intention. Yet evolutionary theory never seems to take this simple truth, into consideration.

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I don't understand why the theory of evolution needs to take it into account. I think it is a theological, not a scientific issue.

Because it is a theological issue, I do understand and most heartily agree that Christians should take it into account, especially in light of the fact that the sixth great extinction of species is our doing. How do Christians who are not active in the fight to save the environment face God's judgment? Was not the care of nature the first or second commandment God gave to humanity (depending on which creation story you are reading)? Gen. 1:28, 2:15

It is really distressing that it is countries with the strongest Christian culture which are in the forefront of the destruction of species. Those of us who claim to be followers of Jesus have a lot to answer for how we have discharged the stewardship of creation.

John, can you show, based on scientific findings, that the world was once not ina fallen state?

JohnR7 said:

Romans 8:21-22
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why is it that evolutionary theory never seems to take into consideration that the world we live in, is a fallen world. This world is not the way God created it to be, or intended it to be. Yet God does have a plan and all of creation will be restored to God purpose and His intention. Yet evolutionary theory never seems to take this simple truth, into consideration.

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Whether or not it is a truth is unknown; it is a religious belief. It is not in evidence; science cannot thus take it into consideration.

That was easy.

JohnR7 said:

Why is it that evolutionary theory never seems to take into consideration that the world we live in, is a fallen world. This world is not the way God created it to be, or intended it to be. Yet God does have a plan and all of creation will be restored to God purpose and His intention. Yet evolutionary theory never seems to take this simple truth, into consideration.

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Because: 1) There isn't any other empirical evidence that suggests an ancient "perfect," unfallen world; 2) No one knows what such a world would look like in any case.

Question. What would be different about evolution if it did take into consideration a world that no longer exists?

The Bellman said:

Whether or not it is a truth is unknown; it is a religious belief. It is not in evidence; science cannot thus take it into consideration.

That was easy.

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uuummm.scientist cant prove evolution either,that is also just a theory.
A theory they like to use so they dont have to use all that bible stuff humanist are so against.
By the way if we evolved from apes,why are apes still around?Mybe they were the smart ones huh?

You're 30 years old. You've no excuse AT ALL for that kind of ignorance.

brinley45cal said:

uuummm.scientist cant prove evolution either,that is also just a theory.
A theory they like to use so they dont have to use all that bible stuff humanist are so against.
By the way if we evolved from apes,why are apes still around?Mybe they were the smart ones huh?

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I really suggest that before you begin to participate in this forum, you at least learn SOMETHING about (a) science and (b) evolutionary theory. Otherwise I am afraid you will again make a post like the above, which only makes you look ignorant.

brinley45cal said:

By the way if we evolved from apes,why are apes still around?Mybe they were the smart ones huh?

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Why wouldn't they still be around? Did your parents and all your cousins die when you were born?

brinley45cal said:

uuummm.scientist cant prove evolution either,that is also just a theory.

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The scientific definition of "theory" isn't the same as the everyday meaning of the word.

brinley45cal said:

A theory they like to use so they dont have to use all that bible stuff humanist are so against.

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What? I'm not even sure where to start. First, that's a sweeping generality and a baseless, veiled attack on humanism. If u have a problem with humanism, why dont u just come out and say it? Second, you do know that the first humanists were devout Christians right? Francesco Petrarch? Erasmus?

brinley45cal said:

By the way if we evolved from apes,why are apes still around?Mybe they were the smart ones huh?

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MSBS said:

Why wouldn't they still be around? Did your parents and all your cousins die when you were born?

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JohnR7 said:

Romans 8:21-22
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why is it that evolutionary theory never seems to take into consideration that the world we live in, is a fallen world. This world is not the way God created it to be, or intended it to be. Yet God does have a plan and all of creation will be restored to God purpose and His intention. Yet evolutionary theory never seems to take this simple truth, into consideration.

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Because it's not a "truth". It's a theory devised by Paul and accepted by some Christians since. Genesis 3 doesn't support it. Creation did not "fall". Adam and Even disobeyed God and God gives them some very limited punishments. The rest of Creation is still the "very good" it is proclaimed in Genesis 1.

Paul was inventing a way to explain the significance of the Resurrection and the salvation he felt in his own life. He hit upon the idea of making a complete circle between Adam as "first man" and Jesus as "last man". It was a simple idea that the gentiles he was converting, who were ignorant of Judaism, could understand.

brinley45cal said:

uuummm.scientist cant prove evolution either,that is also just a theory.

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Supported scientific theories are different from wild speculations that your "just a theory" means. See http://www.christianforums.com/t125211 for a longer discussion. Post your questions or comments there, please.

A theory they like to use so they dont have to use all that bible stuff humanist are so against.

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Over half the evolutionary biologists in history, starting with Darwin, were/are theists. So forget this evolution = atheism thing.

By the way if we evolved from apes,why are apes still around?Mybe they were the smart ones huh?

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Because only a small part of the population transforms to a new species. It's called "allopatric speciation" and is well-documented. The rest of the population remains what it was.

If God created humans from dirt, why is there still dirt? Same answer. God didn't use all the dirt. Well, not all apes were involved in the first speciation into the human lineage.

JohnR7 said:

Romans 8:21-22
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why is it that evolutionary theory never seems to take into consideration that the world we live in, is a fallen world. This world is not the way God created it to be, or intended it to be. Yet God does have a plan and all of creation will be restored to God purpose and His intention. Yet evolutionary theory never seems to take this simple truth, into consideration.

Click to expand...

This is sort of a bizarre post John. The theory of evolution does not address theological concerns, nor is it designed to answer questions about man's relationship w/ God.

JohnR7 said:

Romans 8:21-22
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [22] For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Why is it that evolutionary theory never seems to take into consideration that the world we live in, is a fallen world. This world is not the way God created it to be, or intended it to be. Yet God does have a plan and all of creation will be restored to God purpose and His intention. Yet evolutionary theory never seems to take this simple truth, into consideration.

Click to expand...

Because it's not. The people within it are fallen and we do things which hurt the environment.

Nature itself is not corrupted. It is a victim of the actions of corrupt beings.

Indeed it is not the way God intended it to be. He intended that we take care of what He took billions of years to create. In less than 100,000 years, we're already trying to make futile efforts to immigrate to another hospitable location, which has not yet been found and thus must dwell so many lightyears away, if it does actually exist, that we will probably just die with our planet. We ruined what God created to be beautiful, and now we're trapped here.

Of course we take the "restoration" into consideration. We consideration rather a new creation- one different from ours. We believe God will make a new heavens and a new earth. I'm sorry that you've never heard a theistic evolutionist talk about this eschatological principle- perhaps you don't know too many theistic evolutionists in person or you never got around to the topic with the ones you do know. But we do most certainly do not ignore it. It's part of the Bible.

And evolutoinary theory never took the account of the new creation in Revelation into account because it's a part of written revelation, the Bible, and has no place as of yet in science, natural revelation.

JohnR7 said:

Do you remember the Wisard of Oz, when Dorethy finds herself in the land of OZ and the film goes from black and white to technicolor? I have had dreams of a place that is very bright and colorful, that makes the world we live in, very drab in comparison. I know the way God intended and still intends for this world to be, because I have seen it in my dreams when I was asleep at night.

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Ok, Johnny, perhaps you can clear this up:

Are you suggesting that the proof lucaspa is asking for comes from:

A: The Wizard of Oz

or B: your dreams?

Several people have pointed out what I believed that verse was referring to when I was a Christian: humans' destruction of the environment. But if you think that verse refers to more than this, John, what do you think used to be different about the world from the way it is now?

I'm assuming you don't think that radioactive isotopes used to decay at a different rate from the rate at which they currently do--rememeber that Christians have used the way that the laws of physics are perfectly suited to supporting life as an argument that they were designed by a god. If the ratio of the electromagnetic/weak force to the strong/nuclear force were any different from the way it is now, life could not exist.

Since the rate at which radioactive could decay is the only possible rate as long as the laws of physics are able to support life, I'm assuming that you think it hasn't changed as long as life has existed. That means it must have taken millions of years for the amount of Argon to accumulate in a rock, if it would have taken that long at its current rate of decay. As a gap theorist, you believe in an old earth, don't you?

Well, if animals that left behind their skeletons in these rocks lived millions of years ago, death must be something that had existed for a long time before the first humans. Some of these fossils also show deformations from infections, so there was disease before the first humans also. Compsognathus was found with the bones of a lizard inside its rib cage, and Baryonyx was found with a fish inside it, so apparently animals killed one another for food back then also. They also reproduced the same way the do now--the museum where I work has a cast of a fossils of Stenopterygius that has its unborn babies preserved inside of it, and there are quite a few known fossils of dinosaur eggs, some of which have embyos preserved inside of them.

What do you think was different about the world back then from the way it is now?

I suppose it comes from the desire to emphasize the destructive nature of sin, and that prior to it God couldn't have created death, bloodshed, etc. when it was all "good." Many feel that it requires the introduction of sin. They have to see someone other than God as responsible for that because they view such death as an evil. Death is a result of mortality, and blood- that just happens to be what runs through our veins. There is nothing inherently evil about either.

I really think that it's based on aesthetic preferences of the creationist.