I just don't get it.

Don't get your hopes up for decent answers.

hairless_ape said:

I mean if I could get past THAT, I may have a hope in conversion. But I haven't been able to for many years.

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What you have to get past is the thought that this has any real importance in the message of the bible. Think of the audience and what the stories were designed to convey to those people. The message is what is important, not the mechanics. You'll run in to people that tell you that you must believe a literal interpretation of every word in the bible in order to be Christian (you obviously have already), but realize that they are just a loud minority and that you have no reason to take their word for it-- read and understand for yourself.

Also, on this subject, I'd recomend picking up Finding Darwin's God: A Scientist's Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution by Kenneth Miller. It's a good read and covers the subject in depth.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060930497/104-3109091-9658346?v=glance

hairless_ape said:

Other topic: why ARE we so similar to the primates? I mean if I could get past THAT, I may have a hope in conversion. But I haven't been able to for many years. Look at our fingernails?

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Look at the second quote in my signature. You can't get past Biblical literalism or Fundamentalism. No wonder you have problems! But most Christians are not Fundamentalists.

Why did that evil king of Egypt not listen to Moses after the first several plagues hit him?

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He did. Twice. But Yahweh changed his mind back so that the power of Yahweh could be conclusively demonstrated. That's according to the story. Cecel B. deMille figured that there were some nasty politics in Egypt and some political factions interferred and wouldn't let Pharoah let the Hebrews go.

How abuot all the water everywhere turning to blood? Wouldn't that have killed everyone right then and there, no water to drink in that hot climate?

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It was in the spring when the Nile was going to flood; so it wasn't that hot yet. Also, only the surface water and the water in the Nile was changed. Subsurface water and well water remained as water. Exodus 7:24: "And all the Egyptians dug round about the Nile for water to drink, for they could not drink the water from the Nile."

I have about....30 thousand other questions, I would appreciate a CHristian perspective on and I thank you for reading.

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Most of your questions seem to be about creationism. That is a falsified scientific theory that science and Christians gave up long ago. In 1831, Rev. Adam Sedgwick, President of the Royal Geological Society, announced the final falsification of Noah's Flood when he stepped down from the post.

hairless_ape said:

I just don't get it

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Sounds to me like you get it just fine...

Don't go to Denny's expecting fine dining...
Don't pick up a street walker and expect to feel loved and special...
Don't read the bible and expect stories that make logical sense...

hairless_ape said:

How on earth did the animals survive on the ark?
How did the polar bears not eat everything that was smaller than them?

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How did Jesus feed over 5000 people with the little boys lunch basket? How can you feed 5000 people with a few small fish and a few small loaves of bread and have baskets full of reminants left over?

It is the miracles of God's supply. God can supply our needs abundantly above and beyond all we would ask and think.

The real question is how did the Polar Bear get to the Ark? Sense there are no Polar Bears in the South Pole, it is a little bit easyer to believe that there was a pair of bears on the Ark. Compared to something like the Kangaroo, or other species where it is more difficult to understand how they got to the Ark and back to the exact place they lived before the flood.

JohnR7 said:

How did Jesus feed over 5000 people with the little boys lunch basket? How can you feed 5000 people with a few small fish and a few small loaves of bread and have baskets full of reminants left over?

It is the miracles of God's supply. God can supply our needs abundantly above and beyond all we would ask and think.

The real question is how did the Polar Bear get to the Ark? Sense there are no Polar Bears in the South Pole, it is a little bit easyer to believe that there was a pair of bears on the Ark. Compared to something like the Kangaroo, or other species where it is more difficult to understand how they got to the Ark and back to the exact place they lived before the flood.

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I think these are examples of stories that if taken literally make little sense, but have much to teach if one looks below the surface.

I think the stories in which Jesus feeds the 4,000 and 5,000 have a mathematical significance that harks back to Pythagorean sacred geometry. The mathematical significance is, I think, clearly hinted at in Mark 8:19-21. Similarly, in the Gospel of John, 21:11, the number of fish caught is another reference to Pythagorean geometry. 153:265 is the height to length ratio of the familiar ICTHUS shape created by the intersection of two circles where the circumference of each intersects the centre of the other. Archimedes called it the "measure of the fish". I think the symbol was used by Pythagoreans before it was adopted by Christians. I think it is also interesting to note that according to legend Pythagoras performed similar fish catching miracles.

Travis St. Hubbins said:

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I think these are examples of stories that if taken literally make little sense,

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I have seen God multiply food, I have seen God's miracle of supply, so the Bible makes sense to me. I was a part of a inner city mission church. We never had to send people away hungery without food. We always had something to give them to eat. God always provided the supply for the needs.

You mean you saw donations - which purchased more food. I really hope you are not saying food appeared miraculously.

Baby bears drink milk don't they? Why is it that all of the animals on the ark are supposedly full grown? If I was going to put wild animals on the ark I would have used juvenile animals that would make it much easier to feed the carnivores and simplify the food requirements.

Only the land animals went on the ark. Some animals have a short life and gestation period like mice and guinea pigs, they could have provided food for the others.

What makes people so special is not our physical attributes (plants have physical structure) or our soul life for that matter (animals also have breath life), what made people special is that God created spirit life within man.

hairless_ape said:

Okay, I'm new to this site so forgive me if I cover ground that's been covered a million times already...
How on earth did the animals survive on the ark?

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Id think the trip was planned out pretty well given the amount of time it took to contruct the ark........I dont think the Bible spell all that out in detail...

Youre bigger concern show be how the tar did Noah gather up all those animals

How did the polar bears not eat everything that was smaller than them?

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Were there ''polar'' bears on the ark or just a ursine 'kind'' pair aboard?

How did the seals, dolphins, star-fish, crabs, and any other sea water dependant animals survive without the sea?...

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eh........youre jokin right?

Did Noah build aquariums?

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no?

And how was the food stored for each type of animal?

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big plastic rubbermaid tubs?
really tho......Noah had plenty of time to prepare.

Some animals live only on eating other animals, since there was only 2 of each animal then how could the carnivorous eat?

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It appears this wasnt the case till AFTER the flood.

How did the prey survive?

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see above...

Other topic: why ARE we so similar to the primates?

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similar design.........

I mean if I could get past THAT, I may have a hope in conversion. But I haven't been able to for many years. Look at our fingernails?
Our expressions, our hands and feet....no other animal is anything like us primates.

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eh......YOU may be a primate......I am a man created in Gods image

Why did that evil king of Egypt not listen to Moses after the first several plagues hit him?

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His heart was hardened probly because his dispostion was agaisnt the God of Moses and the Hebrews

How abuot all the water everywhere turning to blood? Wouldn't that have killed everyone right then and there, no water to drink in that hot climate?

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hmmm. not so sure it was long enough to kill everyone....

I have about....30 thousand other questions, I would appreciate a CHristian perspective on and I thank you for reading.
Hairless.

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G_Spot_Tornado said:

I really hope you are not saying food appeared miraculously.

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I said it multiplyed miraculously. How ever you sliced it or diced it, there was always food for the people who went to the church looking for food.

To be sure inner city mission churchs are a great source of supply for people who need food. Just like they provide a great service for people who have more food then they need and want to take that food someplace where it can go to the people who are in need of food.

God does use people to help people. No doubt about that. But we have also seen God multply food, so there is plenty to go around. For example, they may plan on 30 people showing up and 60 people will show up on any given day. But somehow even though only enough food was prepared for 30 people. Everyone ends up getting food, no one goes away hungry and there is still plenty of food available if anyone were to want more.

hairless_ape said:

since there was only 2 of each animal

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There were two (2) each of the unclean animals, the ones you do not eat. The animals that were a supply of food, Noah took 7 each.

Genesis 7:2-3
You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; [3] also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth.

JohnR7 said:

I said it multiplyed miraculously.

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Im with ya John

Yeah so now its spread out to the miracles as well.


Well, if thats the case that God COULDNT do it supernaturally, then there are a LOT of christian evolutionists who need to readjust their theology..... cuase if thats the fact then someone sure lied about Jesus feading the 5000, eh John ?

jobob said:

if thats the fact then someone sure lied about Jesus feading the 5000, eh John ?

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God supplys the need. Look at how he provides for the birds. In some cases when they birds eat wild berrys the seed will pass right though them. Only the coating will be removed from the seed, so it will take root and produce more food for the birds to eat. The more they eat, the more seeds will be sown and the more food they will have.

We have plants that are like that. The more you pull them out of the ground and give them away, the more they multiply. So you end up with more than what you would have had, if you had not given any of them away. I have a friend who has given away hundreds of plants and thousands of flowers from what started out as a $1 package of seeds that he threw in a little flower bed that he had cultivated. The more you give, the more you have.

jobob said:

Im with ya John

Yeah so now its spread out to the miracles as well.


Well, if thats the case that God COULDNT do it supernaturally, then there are a LOT of christian evolutionists who need to readjust their theology..... cuase if thats the fact then someone sure lied about Jesus feading the 5000, eh John ?

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Well, actually the story doesn't say the bread and fish multiplied miraculously.

What it says was that Jesus blessed it and broke it and gave it to the disciples to distribute.

Then we cut to everyone being filled and the disciples gathering up the leftovers.

What happens between the disciples starting to hand out the food and gathering the leftovers is left to the imagination.

See for yourself when you read the four versions of feeding the 5,000 and both versions of feeding the 4,000. No where does it say the bread and fish actually multiplied miraculously.

Miracle!... Miracle!.. uh.. Miracle!

jobob said:

Well, if thats the case that God COULDNT do it supernaturally, then there are a LOT of christian evolutionists who need to readjust their theology.

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TEs never deny that God could have zapped the universe into existence in 144 hours. Heck, He didn't even need to take that long. He could have zapped it all into existence in present form in 10^-43 seconds! It's just that the evidence God left us says He did not do it that way.

cuase if thats the fact then someone sure lied about Jesus feading the 5000, eh John ?

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And yes, it's possible that someone lied. As you said "if thats the fact". Or it's also possible that Jesus got them to share the contents of their travel packs. After all, this was a crowd on the way to Jerusalem for Passover. They carried small travel packs of food (something you need to study the history of the time to appreciate). Getting people to share like that with strangers is also something of a miracle. OR, the bread and fish were multiplied miraculously.

The point, Jobob, is that the story of the loaves and fishes is data. That is, it's an observation. Now, it happened long ago, didn't leave evidence that persists to the present, and no one alive was present. So doubting the accuracy of the account is also reasonable. You can take your choice: trust the account is accurate or doubt it.

However, if John's account of miraculous multiplication of food is accurate, it should be possible to document that. After all, according to John this is a regularb phenomenon, not a one shot deal like the loaves and fishes. So ... John should be able to document the amount of food available before dinner, document the amount per serving, count the number of people served, and demonstrate that the total amount of food distributed was more than the total available. That he hasn't done so causes us to doubt his account.

The Bible is to be taken literally whenever and wherever possible, however some ignore the figures of speech in the Bible. There are 212 different figures of speech used in the Bible, in English we usually use them haphazardly or unknowingly to make points. In addition to the figures of speech there are the customs and mannerisms of the Biblical lands to deal with (Orientalisms). God always speaks to people in terms of their understanding, He would not be able to communicate with you in a language that you do not understand. So it is with those who wrote the Word as God wanted them to write. As an example:

PS 119:83 For I am become like a bottle in the smoke; [yet] do I not forget thy statutes.

This verse contains the figure of speech known as simile, the use of like or as to provide comparison. The Psalmist did not literally become a bottle in the smoke, but he was like one. What is the "bottle"? Bottles as we know them did not exist in Bible times, this bottle was a container for water or milk, probably a goat skin. When you came home at the end of the day you would hang your bottle on a hook above the ground, if there was a fire burning inside your dwelling, smoke would be swirling about. So the bottle just hangs there helpless, without being able to do anything about its situation. This is the image that the Psalmist wants to put into your mind, he is as helpless as a bottle in the smoke unable to change his situation, YET he does not forget God's Word.

Jesus' aim was not to make peace between people, but to provide a way for people to have peace with God. When people hear the truth they will attach themselves to it or reject it. In families oftentimes both types of people exist, naturally those who reject God's Word will not get along peaceably with those who adhere to the message.