San Francisco churches rally to defend traditional marriage.

feral said:

If anyone was truly interested in the preservation of traditional marriage and not just in scoring points for the anti-gay team, they would not be wasting their time on the homosexuals (3%-10% of the population) but on the problems that really dissolve marriage.

It's quite plain that their "pro-family" platform is a joke. People who really cared about keeping families together would be throwing all their funds and energy into providing low cost marital counseling, encouraging state aid for fledgling families, lobbying businesses to provide pregnancy and child care leaves and working to encourage fathers to take a more responsible, active role with their children. They would be worried about the negative portrayal of marriage in the media, or the fact that so many people have unrealistic expectations of marriage - not about what individual couples do or what gender certain people are. They don't care about defending marriage, they care about maintaining exclusivism, feeling superior and keeping out those they don't like...just like people all through history (black codes/Jim Crow laws, anti-Semetic discrimination, misogynism/patriarchy). It strikes me as odd that the church who worships the rebel who broke the Sabbath and befriended a prostitute is more interested in oppression then in demonstrating tolerance.

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And you think they aren't?

There are many, many planks in the pro-family Christian movement. Homosexual marriage is on the front burner because of the radical push of the gay agenda.

brewmama said:

And you think they aren't?

There are many, many planks in the pro-family Christian movement. Homosexual marriage is on the front burner because of the radical push of the gay agenda.

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But, because those who oppose gay inclusion, and spiritual opportunity, are reactionary: as you imply yourself, you are seeking to stem a rising flood; the pro-marriage perspective, risks being characterised as also being reactionary.

This is unfortunate, and it would be better if this linkage were broken.
Pro-marriage is a desirable posture, while standing against gay inclusion and equal opportunity, is just running with the spiritual brakes on.

One must be suspicious of those who maintain this linkage: that they are concerned with creating polemical and ideological tools; before ever they are concerned to promote the family.

Promoting the family can easily get broad and consensual support.
While opposing gay inclusion and spiritual equal opportunity, is a divisive issue, as this opposition is carried by a vocal and resourceful minority.

Those who are truly interested in the promotion of family, must insist that this linkage is broken: notwithstanding the protests of these idealogues who will thereby be denied a weapon, in their chosen oppositions and confrontations.

jameseb said:

If our country decides as a democracy to make such marriages legal, than so be it. I do not advocate overthrowing the government because of that, nor has anyone else that I've seen. .

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Look at another thread titled "50,000 Christians considering seceeding from America". Because of recent legislature, they want 50,000 people to move to one area and make their own country full of Christians where gay marriage will not be aloud. Looks like trying to overthrow the government to me...

jameseb said:

You asked a question earlier... "How will Gay marriages directly effect people in a negative way?"

I'll try to answer for those you might be posing that question to.

First, homosexuality is regarding as sin by many Christians. That alone warrants their belief in objecting to this practice. Why need they answer further? If it is God's will who are they to question him over whether it is 'bad' or 'good?'

Second, let's assume that some feel that making gay marriage legal is yet one more immoral practice our country is endorsing. They might feel that this will lead to a further collective breakdown of traditional family life. Perhaps they feel that it will be taught to their childrens that sin is 'okay' and legal. Perhaps they think this will lead their children to question the Holy Scripture. Is that not valid?

Third, perhaps they feel that adoption between gay couples will further expose children to sin and that they will be taught (as the children above) that their lifestyle is not a sin.

Fourth, maybe they feel that to make yet another sin a lawful excerise further removes their nation from its Christian roots. I could go on with this and more reasons, but I'll leave it to each individual to answer it for themselves. Please note that I may or may not believe these reasons I give you. You thought I was evading your question and I wish to show you that was not the case.

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First off, I want to thank you for answering my question. I am also Christian and I am familiar with most churches' stances on homosexuality. But then again, I am not a traditional Christian, I use common sense. I got upset when I went to Catholic mass with my family a few weeks ago (I recently changed to a different church) and the priest said 3 different prayers that lasted several minutes about homosexuals and praying for Congress to stop gay marriages and that homosexuals are sinners who need to repent or they are all going to go to hell. There are millions of issues I think need to be prayed about were people are actually dying, starving suffering, etc before we start making such a big fuss about homosexuals. I am all for someone expressing their beliefs on an issue, that is why I love America. But the amount of anger, hate, and energy seems to be wasted way TOO MUCH on this issue. WHO ARE WE TO POINT OUT THE SINS OF OTHERS (homosexuals) WHEN WE ARE ALL SINNERS OURSELVES??? This country does not have a national religion of Christianity. There are millions of people who are Muslim, Pagan, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. I am not going to make people live by my Christian beliefs because, this is America. I tolerate and love every creature that God has created. A person has the right to choose what they believe in. I prefer to look at scientifical evidence that would prove serious consequences of gay marriages. What is a sin to one person might not be considered a sin to another person. The United States was founded more on the principle of freedom than "Christian roots". In fact, George Washington was not even Christian, he was more agnostic than anything. But of course, this is just my opinion on things.

Mistyfogg said:

Look at another thread titled "50,000 Christians considering seceeding from America". Because of recent legislature, they want 50,000 people to move to one area and make their own country full of Christians where gay marriage will not be aloud. Looks like trying to overthrow the government to me...

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Doesn't sound like an advocation for rebellion to me. I read the thread, but that is neither here nor there of course.

First off, I want to thank you for answering my question. I am also Christian and I am familiar with most churches' stances on homosexuality. But then again, I am not a traditional Christian, I use common sense. I got upset when I went to Catholic mass with my family a few weeks ago (I recently changed to a different church) and the priest said 3 different prayers that lasted several minutes about homosexuals and praying for Congress to stop gay marriages and that homosexuals are sinners who need to repent or they are all going to go to hell. There are millions of issues I think need to be prayed about were people are actually dying, starving suffering, etc before we start making such a big fuss about homosexuals. I am all for someone expressing their beliefs on an issue, that is why I love America. But the amount of anger, hate, and energy seems to be wasted way TOO MUCH on this issue. WHO ARE WE TO POINT OUT THE SINS OF OTHERS (homosexuals) WHEN WE ARE ALL SINNERS OURSELVES??? This country does not have a national religion of Christianity. There are millions of people who are Muslim, Pagan, Buddhist, Jewish, etc. I am not going to make people live by my Christian beliefs because, this is America. I tolerate and love every creature that God has created. A person has the right to choose what they believe in. I prefer to look at scientifical evidence that would prove serious consequences of gay marriages. What is a sin to one person might not be considered a sin to another person. The United States was founded more on the principle of freedom than "Christian roots". In fact, George Washington was not even Christian, he was more agnostic than anything. But of course, this is just my opinion on things.

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You're welcome in regards to the answers to the question. As for not being a traditional Christian because you use common sense, well, some might disagree with your idea that common sense doesn't apply to traditional Christians as well.

Regarding those who take issue with homosexuality now...

"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, `I repent,' forgive him."

Luke 17:1-4


You see, Christ tells us to let our brothers and sisters know when they sin or are endorsing sin. He does not wish us to be 'tolerant,' but truthful. Like you said, and as I've said countless times regarding this subject, we ALL sin. That is why I do not look upon a homosexual as anything less than my brother or sister in Christ. I do not like the sin, but I do love the person. I don't see the 'hate' here you seem to be suggesting exists. I think if people actually took the time to read what some people have to say instead of just ignoring it and writing it off as 'hate speech' there might be a greater understanding here about it.

jameseb said:

You see, Christ tells us to let our brothers and sisters know when they sin or are endorsing sin. He does not wish us to be 'tolerant,' but truthful. Like you said, and as I've said countless times regarding this subject, we ALL sin. That is why I do not look upon a homosexual as anything less than my brother or sister in Christ. I do not like the sin, but I do love the person. I don't see the 'hate' here you seem to be suggesting exists. I think if people actually took the time to read what some people have to say instead of just ignoring it and writing it off as 'hate speech' there might be a greater understanding here about it.

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Well said, and I absolutely agree! In all the multitude of threads we have had recently on gay marriage, I have yet to see anyone who believes homosexuality is a sin say "I hate gays". Yet we are constantly lambasted as being bigots or homophobes. Talk about intolerance.

Mistyfogg said:

. I got upset when I went to Catholic mass with my family a few weeks ago (I recently changed to a different church) and the priest said 3 different prayers that lasted several minutes about homosexuals and praying for Congress to stop gay marriages and that homosexuals are sinners who need to repent or they are all going to go to hell.

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A man of the cloth praying for unrepentant sinners! How horrible!!!

There are millions of issues I think need to be prayed about were people are actually dying, starving suffering, etc before we start making such a big fuss about homosexuals. I am all for someone expressing their beliefs on an issue, that is why I love America. But the amount of anger, hate, and energy seems to be wasted way TOO MUCH on this issue. WHO ARE WE TO POINT OUT THE SINS OF OTHERS (homosexuals) WHEN WE ARE ALL SINNERS OURSELVES???

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No Christians here claim that they are not sinners.

jameseb said:

You see, Christ tells us to let our brothers and sisters know when they sin or are endorsing sin. He does not wish us to be 'tolerant,' but truthful. Like you said, and as I've said countless times regarding this subject, we ALL sin. That is why I do not look upon a homosexual as anything less than my brother or sister in Christ. I do not like the sin, but I do love the person. I don't see the 'hate' here you seem to be suggesting exists. I think if people actually took the time to read what some people have to say instead of just ignoring it and writing it off as 'hate speech' there might be a greater understanding here about it.

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Exactly! It's worth repeating......

Mistyfogg said:

I got upset when I went to Catholic mass with my family a few weeks ago (I recently changed to a different church) and the priest said 3 different prayers that lasted several minutes about homosexuals and praying for Congress to stop gay marriages and that homosexuals are sinners who need to repent or they are all going to go to hell. .

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Hey Misty,
I am sorry you were subjected to that during worship, Misty. The priest you mention was obviously NOT praying - he was making a political speech. (had he kept it to the sermon, even though I would find it objectionable, at least he wouldn't be hijacking the prayers of the faithful for his own misguided agenda. GOD doesn't need to be told what to do with homosexuals, and all that he has created. It really hacks my loins when clergy get up during Divine Service and make their paltry sermonizing prayers. I've seen it before, and I think it is outrageous. His Bishop should be told about this instance.

Bless you, and I hope you find a decent place in which to worship.

GOD doesn't need to be told what to do with homosexuals,

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You're absolutely correct. It's there in black and white.

Blindfaith said:

You're absolutely correct. It's there in black and white.

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I actually have mine in red here and there too.

JPPT1974 said:

What would you tell that child about how that child should grow up in a same-sex marriage and that child would be confused for the rest of their lives.

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Hmmm..."one swallow does not make a summer," as the old proverb goes, saying in essence that a single example does not prove a point.

However, as an anecdote, I know a young man who uses the online name of Seven on another board. His parents divorced when his father came out as gay; his father got custody, and he and his partner raised Seven. He did experience a bit of harassment from other children while growing up, but came through it perfectly OK, is now in a happy (heterosexual) marriage, and IIRC a moderately active Christian (U.C.C., again IIRC). And he says he has nothing but respect and affection for "his two fathers." And he seems to be a very level-headed and decent individual, from what I can garner from his online posts.

This doesn't go to prove anything about a generalization of how such kids will turn out -- but it does prove that the generic "they'll come out disturbed and confused" comment (which is of course not quite what you said) is not an absolute.

Blindfaith said:

You're absolutely correct. It's there in black and white.

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...and if He chooses to be merciful to all sinners, will you be complaining that He didn't follow the "black and white?" - (like the older brother in the story of the Prodigal)

jameseb said:

I don't see the 'hate' here you seem to be suggesting exists. I think if people actually took the time to read what some people have to say instead of just ignoring it and writing it off as 'hate speech' there might be a greater understanding here about it.

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Please do not turn one word I said in my post and turn it around and claim ignorance on my part. I understand the Christian viewpoint. But that is why I debate on this forum, to understand and look at all views. I come on this site to reform and reinforce my views on issues, and I hope others do the same, and that is why I like to express my opinion on the matter.

I was not talking about the 'hate' coming from people at Christian forums; the original OP talked about Christians in San Fransisco having a rally . I never once said that what everyone writes here is 'hate speech'. I respect every single person's opinion. But there are Christians who hate homosexuals. I witnessed in front of my own eyes (I was just in the neighborhood), a peaceful gay rights rally where a large group of people yelled at them and held signs that said "God hates ****". I guess I was shocked by the brutality of people who are supposed to love, as you said "our brothers and sisters in Christ." Not every Christian has an wonderful loving attitude such as yours towards homosexuals.

My orginal thought on this OP was that there are some Christians who spend entirely too much time on worrying about what others are doing. I just thought IMO that there are more important issues that I wish Christians were adressing with as much passion as they are for banning gay marriages. But this is MY OPINION, and I just see many terrible injustices that I wish churches were getting in a fever about.

Mistyfogg said:

Please do not turn one word I said in my post and turn it around and claim ignorance on my part. I understand the Christian viewpoint. But that is why I debate on this forum, to understand and look at all views. I come on this site to reform and reinforce my views on issues, and I hope others do the same, and that is why I like to express my opinion on the matter.

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Honestly, Misty, I'm not at all trying to turn any word you've wrote here. If I misunderstood your words, than I apologize. I too find it enriching to discuss various issues here on this forum, though I initially came here to escape such discussions such as this.... I thought I'd find a warm, all-agreeing Christian message forum when I first came here. In all fairness though, this forum is open to non-Christians as well so that adds another element to such discussions.

I was not talking about the 'hate' coming from people at Christian forums; the original OP talked about Christians in San Fransisco having a rally . I never once said that what everyone writes here is 'hate speech'. I respect every single person's opinion. But there are Christians who hate homosexuals. I witnessed in front of my own eyes (I was just in the neighborhood), a peaceful gay rights rally where a large group of people yelled at them and held signs that said "God hates ****". I guess I was shocked by the brutality of people who are supposed to love, as you said "our brothers and sisters in Christ." Not every Christian has an wonderful loving attitude such as yours towards homosexuals.

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Well, the problem is, that swings both ways. There was a recent rally in Seattle by advocates of heterosexual marriage, and it was harassed and cursed by pro-homosexual people who hate those opposed to their beliefs. This happens all the way around, we can't simply point out the error in the Christians that are against this issue.

Robert43 said:

Hi, Here is some Positive news again.

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=18326

Robert.

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Yes, intolerance is always positive.

And you think they aren't? There are many, many planks in the pro-family Christian movement. Homosexual marriage is on the front burner because of the radical push of the gay agenda.

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Honestly, I have never seen action towards getting public funded daycare or requiring mandatory premarital counseling sponsored or pushed by any "pro family" group. What I do hear is a lot of moaning and whining about the evils of equality and tolerance. I fail to see gay marriage as a threat or a risk to traditional marriage. After all, marriage fails 50% of the time, and as of two weeks ago gay marriage wasn't legal. Obviously something else is the threat. Why aren't pro-family groups doing anything about the real threats? It seems to me that they are just trying to push discrimination, not do anything for the family. What do they do for families with one parent, families where marriage is threatening, families where financial need is a strain causing divorce? I don't see any way where gay marriage could possibly hurt traditional marriage any more then it already is.

chalice_thunder said:

Hey Misty,
I am sorry you were subjected to that during worship, Misty. The priest you mention was obviously NOT praying - he was making a political speech. (had he kept it to the sermon, even though I would find it objectionable, at least he wouldn't be hijacking the prayers of the faithful for his own misguided agenda. GOD doesn't need to be told what to do with homosexuals, and all that he has created. It really hacks my loins when clergy get up during Divine Service and make their paltry sermonizing prayers. I've seen it before, and I think it is outrageous. His Bishop should be told about this instance.

Bless you, and I hope you find a decent place in which to worship.

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Thank you very much Chalice for your kind words. There are a lot of churches in San Diego, I am just trying to find the right one for my husband and I to worship in and find "our niche".

I was shocked at how much time the priest spent on one issue and the things he was saying. I grew up as a child going to that church and we had a wonderful priest, but he moved to another church and I was not familiar with this new priest. I am not sure who the Bishop is right now, it used to be Thomas O'Brien, but he is in some legal controversy for alleged hit-and-run with his car. I have not kept up with who the new one is or if they replaced him because I do not live there anymore, but I will look into it and contact him. Thank you.

feral said:

Honestly, I have never seen action towards getting public funded daycare or requiring mandatory premarital counseling sponsored or pushed by any "pro family" group. What I do hear is a lot of moaning and whining about the evils of equality and tolerance. I fail to see gay marriage as a threat or a risk to traditional marriage. After all, marriage fails 50% of the time, and as of two weeks ago gay marriage wasn't legal. Obviously something else is the threat. Why aren't pro-family groups doing anything about the real threats? It seems to me that they are just trying to push discrimination, not do anything for the family. What do they do for families with one parent, families where marriage is threatening, families where financial need is a strain causing divorce? I don't see any way where gay marriage could possibly hurt traditional marriage any more then it already is.

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You put into words what I have been trying to convey when I have said that I wish some Christians would show as much passion for an issue besides gay marriage that "puts families in danger". I have looked around at my peers and seen their emotional scars from growing up in broken homes.

If Christians want to stop gay marriages because it is a sin, they why stop there? Is divorce not a sin that needs to be put in legislature to put a stop too? Isn't pre-marital sex a sin that causes many society problems...so why aren't people pushing to make that illegal?

Sometimes it seems that gay marriage is a scapegoat for "the downfall of family life" when it has been crumbling for years. Maybe churches feel like the dropped the ball when it came to helping families when divorce became more common and now they do not want to let it happen again. (Just testing out some underlying thoughts on why churches are against gay marriage besides it being a sin)

I wish some Christians would show as much passion for an issue besides gay marriage that "puts families in danger". I have looked around at my peers and seen their emotional scars from growing up in broken homes.

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That's exactly how I feel. My father grew up in a divorced home, and the emotional pain he still carries is just unbelievable. When his parents divorced in 1967, there was no gay marriage - but financial woes, infidelity and lack of communications existed then and still do. I'm not a Christian, but I understand what it's like to see people doing something you know will hurt them or make life hard for them...and I do understand why some people are very anti-gay rights. I just think "pro-family" ought to really mean that, and not just be synonymous with anti-gay.