Church of Scientology

Frankie · May 24, 2004

Doc T said:
Interesting spin. A few short blocks from the Main Street Plaza is the Gateway Olympic Plaza. Both quite similar. Both public-access plazas with sidewalks, benches, statues, and water features. Both act as throughofares to other places, Both are private property that was once owned by the City and sold to their current owners. Yet the owners of the Gateway Olympic Plaza are entitled to the right of control over the behavior of the public on it's property. Not a peep of protest from the ACLU, the Unitarian Church, or civil libertarians. Not a whiff of a lawsuit. Not a speck of controversy. And it is not only the Gateway Olympic Plaza that flies below the radar of the proud civil libertarians...there are many other examples in Salt Lake City where public property has been transferred to private owners and the right of unfettered free speech has been eliminated without complaint.

Why no protest in those cases? Because the property owners gaining property rights at the expense of free speech are NOT the LDS Church.

At the root of all the angst over the loss of free speech on the Main Street Plaza is a religious bias. "Free speech" is simply a lofty sounding camouflage for opposition to the LDS Church.

Doc

~

Have people tried to protest at these other places you mention?

Frankie

alaurie · May 25, 2004

edited - off topic

skylark1 · May 25, 2004

Doc T said:
Interesting spin. A few short blocks from the Main Street Plaza is the Gateway Olympic Plaza. Both quite similar. Both public-access plazas with sidewalks, benches, statues, and water features. Both act as throughofares to other places, Both are private property that was once owned by the City and sold to their current owners. Yet the owners of the Gateway Olympic Plaza are entitled to the right of control over the behavior of the public on it's property. Not a peep of protest from the ACLU, the Unitarian Church, or civil libertarians. Not a whiff of a lawsuit. Not a speck of controversy. And it is not only the Gateway Olympic Plaza that flies below the radar of the proud civil libertarians...there are many other examples in Salt Lake City where public property has been transferred to private owners and the right of unfettered free speech has been eliminated without complaint.

Why no protest in those cases? Because the property owners gaining property rights at the expense of free speech are NOT the LDS Church.

At the root of all the angst over the loss of free speech on the Main Street Plaza is a religious bias. "Free speech" is simply a lofty sounding camouflage for opposition to the LDS Church.

Doc

~

You seem to have missed including a link to your quotation.
http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=388.topic

I disagree that "free speech is simply a lofty sounding camouflage for opposition to the LDS Church." I was very opposed to the idea of my right to free speech on Main Street being restricted or sold. It wasn't that I wanted to voice opposition to the LDS Church, but that I simply did not like my right to freely speak my mind being taken away. I had no intentions to say anything against the LDS Church on Main Street, yet I was opposed to my right to free speech being restricted or sold.

Now that I have been outside of Temple Square and witnessed these "street preachers, I have changed my mind. They exhibited very loud, obnoxious, and belligerent hate speech. Their right to free speech has not been taken away, they have simply moved from private to public property.

The comparison to the Gateway Plaza doesn't work so well because at the Main Street Plaza the city of SL had kept a pedestrain right of way that was later sold to the LDS church specifically in order to gain control of limiting the right to free speech. Also, other than during the Olympics, when a protest "zone" was created, the right to free speech at the Gateway Plaza has not been restricted.

oldrooster · May 25, 2004

Frankie said:
Have people tried to protest at these other places you mention?

Frankie

That is the whole battle is about, the protesters are hassled during LDS confrenece. The church is relitively lenient on them. There have been a few arrests.

oldrooster · May 25, 2004

skylark1 said:
You seem to have missed including a link to your quotation.
http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=388.topic

I disagree that "free speech is simply a lofty sounding camouflage for opposition to the LDS Church." I was very opposed to the idea of my right to free speech on Main Street being restricted or sold. It wasn't that I wanted to voice opposition to the LDS Church, but that I simply did not like my right to freely speak my mind being taken away. I had no intentions to say anything against the LDS Church on Main Street, yet I was opposed to my right to free speech being restricted or sold.

Now that I have been outside of Temple Square and witnessed these "street preachers, I have changed my mind. They exhibited very loud, obnoxious, belligerent, and hate speech. Their right to free speech had not been taken away, they had simply moved from private to public property.

The comparision to the Gateway Plaza differs because at the Main Street Plaza the city of SL had kept a pedestrain right of way that was later sold to the LDS church specifically in order to gain control of limiting the right to free speech. Also, other than during the Olympics, when a protest "zone" was created, the right to free speech at the Gateway Plaza has not been restricted.

I am with you on this one, they are in bad taste and many border on harrassment. Our pastor is very much against that.I would never protest there. I have spent many a peaceful afternoon sitting in that block reading. It really is a beautiful square.

Frankie · May 25, 2004

skylark1 said:
You seem to have missed including a link to your quotation.
http://p080.ezboard.com/fpacumenispagesfrm69.showMessage?topicID=388.topic

I disagree that "free speech is simply a lofty sounding camouflage for opposition to the LDS Church." I was very opposed to the idea of my right to free speech on Main Street being restricted or sold. It wasn't that I wanted to voice opposition to the LDS Church, but that I simply did not like my right to freely speak my mind being taken away. I had no intentions to say anything against the LDS Church on Main Street, yet I was opposed to my right to free speech being restricted or sold.

Now that I have been outside of Temple Square and witnessed these "street preachers, I have changed my mind. They exhibited very loud, obnoxious, belligerent, and hate speech. Their right to free speech had not been taken away, they had simply moved from private to public property.

The comparision to the Gateway Plaza differs because at the Main Street Plaza the city of SL had kept a pedestrain right of way that was later sold to the LDS church specifically in order to gain control of limiting the right to free speech. Also, other than during the Olympics, when a protest "zone" was created, the right to free speech at the Gateway Plaza has not been restricted.

Hi Skylark, which posts on the thread of that link is the one we should look at?

Thanks,
Frankie

skylark1 · May 25, 2004

Frankie said:
Hi Skylark, which posts on the thread of that link is the one we should look at?

Thanks,
Frankie

Post #6. I suspect that Doc just missed linking his post - which was a quotation of the post on the link. I just wanted to give credit where credit was due.

Frankie · May 25, 2004

skylark1 said:
Post #6. I suspect that Doc just missed linking his post - which was a quotation of the post on the link. I just wanted to give credit where credit was due.

Ok, thanks

LuckyCharm · May 25, 2004

Helaman said:
I read the official scoop on this group. What are the opinions of those in here? What is this church? Is it Christian? If not, why? What are the basic belief of this church, and how does it help us get back to the Father?

I was a Scientology staff member for over two years. I can tell you that they do NOT believe in Jesus Christ, and are completely at odds with the Christian faith.

~~Cheryl

Hix · May 25, 2004

Romans5:1 said:
Hix, read my lips with comprehension this time: Where did Jesus ever preach that one could establish a right relationship with God by keeping the Torah? The above has nothing to do with the establishment, but in fact, just the opposite, given that no man could ever keep the Torah, which is why Jesus came in the first place. Now, if you would like to sort through your other 40 references fine, but at least pick one that addresses the question.

How on EARTH do you come to that conclusion from the verse I posted? Let me guess, instead of taking what Jesus said literally, you ran to Paul for the answer and interperated him completely out of context by the words of a man that never even knew him. right?

Tell me, when Nicodemous asked Jesus how he could be born again and Jesus said "You are a leader of the Children of Israel and you do not know these things?" what exactly did he mean? Il tell you, being born again was never something introduced with Jesus, it was something that was always known, Jesus went on to say "keep the commandments". That is his message, and when you interperate it in the light of the OT it is perfectly consistant

Il sort through my 40 verses, I hope you dont mind me using some OT since it is part of the Bible and everything. Please tell me what "forever" means, we are to follow G-ds laws forever, which in your opinion means up untill a point....sort of strange for G-d to use the words forever and eternally aint it?

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee, for ever.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your G-d which I command you.

Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Psalm 111:2 The works of the L-RD [are] great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. [3] His work [is] honorable and glorious: and his righteousness endureth for ever. [4] He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the L-RD [is] gracious and full of compassion. [5] He hath given meat unto them that fear him: He will ever be mindful of His covenant. [6] He hath shewed his people the power of his works, that He may give them the heritage of the heathen. [7] The works of his hands [are] verity and judgment; all His commandments [are] sure. [8] They stand fast for ever and ever, [and are] done in truth and uprightness. [9] He sent redemption unto his people: He hath commanded His covenant for ever: holy and reverend [is] His name.

Ezekiel 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord G-D; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. [18] And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence. [19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in My statutes, and keep Mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be My people, and I will be their G-d.

Isaiah 2:2 It will happen in the end of days: The Mountain of the Temple of HASHEM will be firmly established as the head of the mountains, and it will be exalted above the hills, and all the nations will stream to it. [3] Many peoples will go and say: Come, let us go up to the Mountain of HASHEM, to the Temple of the G-d of Jacob, and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths. For from Zion will the Torah come forth, and the word of HASHEM from Jerusalem
Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
(These verses speak of when the Messiah is to come, and they clearly say that when Messiah comes we will still be following the Torah

and we are)

Leviticus 19:37 Therefore shall ye observe all My statutes, and all My judgments, and do them: I am the L-rd.

Deuteronomy 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d, and keep His charge, and His statutes, and His judgments, and His commandments, always.
(faith and law are to be ballanced, this is a Biblical consistant)

Deuteronomy 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy G-d, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy G-d shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Jeremiah 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD G-d of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant, [4] Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey My voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be My people, and I will be your G-d: [5] That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD. [6] Then the LORD said unto me, Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, saying, Hear ye the words of this covenant, and do them. [7] For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey My voice. [8] Yet they obeyed not, nor inclined their ear, but walked every one in the imagination of their evil heart: therefore I will bring upon them all the words of this covenant, which I commanded them to do: but they did them not.

Proverbs 4:2 For I give you good doctrine, forsake ye not My law.

Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Proverbs 7:2 Keep My commandments, and live; and My law as the apple of thine eye.

2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which He wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

Malachi 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts. [6] For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. [7] Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

That should be enough for now, I have several more if you would like to see them. Point being, G-d consistantly says to follow the Torah and have faith in him FOREVER. Now you are trying to say that not only did G-d lie and change his mind, something he said he would never do (see above) but you claim the Torah is less than perfect. Therefor you insult G-d.

Romans5:1 said:
You stated that,"the OP who himself bears the mormonism icon and loves Jesus and tries to follow him in the way he believes is right. Just like you do." So, you were comparing the Mormon Jesus with the Christian Jesus, were rebuked accordingly for being in error, got your tites all wadded up, and now you're in denial about what you said.

Not at all, this debate started becuase you took a cheap shot at mormonism in a thread that wasnt even related to it and broke countless CF rules in the process including flaming. And Im calling you on it.

Romans5:1 said:
As for your latter question, I am a circumcised Jew of the heart (Rom. 1:28-29), and follow the Torah, by faith, through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross to atone for my sins. Why aren't you?

Thats lovely, of cource Id rather follow what the Bible has to say and ignore what the Pastor says. Funny thing is in that verse I quoted last time Jesus said "anyone who does not follow the law or teaches others not to will be least" I would say you fit both categories perfectly. I get annoyed by christians of your variety whos very theology is built around Paul instead of Jesus, the words of Jesus are interperated in the light of Pauls instead of vice versa. Il bet you wont be quoting any James either

Micah 6:6-8 (6) With what shall I come before the L-rd, bow myself before G-d on high? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? (7) Will the L-rd be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? (8) Man has told you what is good; but what does the L-rd demand of you? To do justice, and to love loving-kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-d?

Romans5:1 said:
What assertion are you alluding to, given that you're merely a Jew outwardly, which means that you're not truly a Jew at all (Rom. 1:28)?

Oh my, more personal attacks :scratch:

A gentile trying to tell me Im not a Jew, that is quite funny. Though it doesnt really matter, it doesnt change the fact I have a relationship with G-d and I know and love him. Im willing to admit you do as well, even though we disagree on theology. What then of the LDS?

Romans5:1 said:
Report all you want. Once again, if you can't take the heat, then don't go into the kitchen. Besides, I'm not a bitter person at all, nor do I hate anyone. It's just that I'm not going to put up with the "sons of disobedience," "children of wrath," pseudo-Jews, and whatever else comes down the pike making a mockery of Jesus, God, and Chrisitianity, and yet wishing to be acknowledged as God's Christian children.

Excuse me but this is an internet forum with set rules, it is not your place, miss high and mighty, to go around flaming and degrading other posters like you have some divine right.
IMHO you make a gross mockery of Jesus, his message, his love for everyone regardless of who they were and the consistant messages of the Bible. Want me to hound you in every thread from now on?

Romans5:1 said:
When you favorably compared the Mormon Jesus with the Jesus of Christianity, you defamed both Jesus and Christianity, regardless of how discontented you felt as a result.

LOL! Oh please. Christianity doesnt fit in the box you try and place it in, Im afraid. There are countless liberal christians and ones who would completely disagree with you. I suppose it would never occur to you its possible you are wrong, thats usually the way with arrogant people such as yourself.

Romans5:1 said:
And by you misquoting Mormonism, Christianity, and the Bible, you have what kind of grasp on the truth regarding any of them?

Show me were I did any of that? The point is what you did was an off topic cheap shot, you then went on to viciously attack and flame myself and other human beings. From my POV it is you who lacks grasp on what the Bible teaches. Please practise what you preach.

Romans5:1 said:
Your ignorance of what has already been stated regarding the Mormon Jesus in contrast to the Jesus of the Bible only further invalidates whatever conclusions you have drawn regarding fruits.

Yeah Im sure. Your insulting me out of love really, its so obvious

Romans5:1 said:
LOL. You're siding with those holding an erroneous (perverse) view of God, an erroneous view of Jesus, an erroneous view of Scripture, and you think that is proof of who is, or is not, following the Bible?

First of all, I came to this thread to stand up for LDS. No matter what they did they do not deserve to be cheap shot and attacked in the manner in which you have displayed. They have shown courtesy and the most Jesus like thing you could do is return that.
Second of all, I dont really care at this point who they think Jesus was, suffice it to say its different from who *I* think he was. But what Im saying is that the LDS are to be given credit, to say they do not love G-d is in error even if their views of him are different from your own.
Third of all, if your insistant on showing people the error of their ways and bringing them into the light, then funny thing is that INSULTING them doesnt do much to help.

Romans5:1 said:
Again, your ignorance of the subject is more than telling, for it was not too long ago (December 2002), that Orthodox Jews were at odds with the Mormon Church, as the Mormons were "targeting" Holocaust Jews to get their names for the pagan ritual held in Mormon temples called "Baptism for the Dead." Here is an article along those lines for your reading pleasure.

*shrugs* I dont know whether the article is true or not, but thankfully we havent had swatisticas branded on our Shuls by LDS, or windows broken. Yes if you wanna take a little trip to the MJ forum we could tell you stories all about it, do you want to know who was involved? Protestant christians. Or how about the inquisitions or the crusades enforced by the church, when countless Jews were murdered. You have absolutely NO idea what its like to live with this level of persecution, to us the general peacfull attitude of the LDS is a G-dsend.

Romans5:1 said:
Furthermore, you spit in Jesus' face by asserting that regardless of the path, everyone will arrive at their "desired" destination, so long as they just "love" whatever caricature of Jesus or God enough. That's sick, Hix.

I never said that, I said that the LDS love G-d, to me you erect your own caricature of both Jesus or G-d so you are both in the same boat. How about you save your missionising for those who DONT know G-d?

Romans5:1 said:
My God is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, who has manifested himself in the persons of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

Fair enough. My G-d is the G-d of the Bible.

Romans5:1 said:
And I'm sorry to see that you've contradicted yourself again by assuming that "love of Jesus" needs to be expressed in whatever "box" like manner you've decided to put it in. The fact of the matter is, I love Jesus enough to make a stand for not only what he said, but for who he is, and will not tolerate false idealogies and religions whose only intent is to demean what he did. Now you, being the pagan-endorsing liberal may wish to do just the opposite, as your way of expressing your "love of Jesus." So be it. Just don't be expecting too many favorable returns on the wagers that you place that God is going to reward you for mistaking denegration for love.

And I am SO glad that Jesus did not take your approach with the sinners, instead of insulting, attcking, cheap shotting, condeming and hating others becuase they are different and wrong. Instead he dined with them, loved them with a true love, an example we are to follow. I can just imagine what your aproach would have done to poor Zachaous. Oy vey!

Romans5:1 said:
If God is love, yet a person gets ahold of the wrong god, then just what kind of love can that person express towards his god, or towards other people? That's the difference.

Jesus didnt have a problem loving people with other gods either. The Samartian woman, for example.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone please.

Romans5:1 said:
Your so-called "attack" didn't bother me in the least, for Jesus said to expect it. Besides, I don't degrade the LDS. I expose and impugn the heretical teachings that they want to pawn off on everyone as true Christianity. In essence, I am doing exactly what all Christians have been told to do in Scripture. Now, if the Mormons or yourself don't like it, then quit making your heretical claims of allegiance to Christianity, when in fact, there is nothing Christian about it. Your choice.

I have yet to see you quote one place in Scripture it says to attack the unbelievers.
You can call me a heretic if you want, but Im going to be a thorn in your side then becuase theres a whole forum of like minded thinkers such as myself in the Christian Only area. Sorry, but really christianity doesnt fit in the box you place it in.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

Swart · May 25, 2004

Wisdom's Child said:
I am truely sorry that I even posted in this Forum, for there is no Fruit to be Found in This Insanity

I, for one, have enjoyed your voice of sanity.

oldrooster · May 25, 2004

I too get irate at some of the posters here, Scientology is a bunch of loonies, could not compare it with the LDS church at all.

oldrooster · May 25, 2004

Wisdom's Child said:
Oh Man,

I think that I will start a thread on the subject of Zen Budism, so that you Wolves can have another opportunity to Bash Mormons.

Or maybe, the Mythras Cults, or Zorasterism, or maybe I will come up with something fictional.

PPL THE OP OF THIS THREAD IS ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY

Christians, must I remind you that you are Commanded to Love Your Enemies?
This Mindless and Continual Emotional Rave against Mormonism that contaminates virtually every thread in the UT Forum is like YEAST

I am truely sorry that I even posted in this Forum, for there is no Fruit to be Found in This Insanity

Amen as well.....

Swart · May 25, 2004

oldrooster said:
I too get irate at some of the posters here, Scientology is a bunch of loonies, could not compare it with the LDS church at all.

I've never met a Scientologist. I guess they aren't very big in Australia.

I have read part of one of L. Ron Hubbards books (one that he wrote before he died

). He isn't a very good writer, the story was mediocre science fiction. About on a par with Robert Heinlein. That is to say, if they had written today, they wouldn't have been published. And none of us would grok.

oldrooster · May 25, 2004

Swart said:
I've never met a Scientologist. I guess they aren't very big in Australia.

I have read part of one of L. Ron Hubbards books (one that he wrote before he died ). He isn't a very good writer, the story was mediocre science fiction. About on a par with Robert Heinlein. That is to say, if they had written today, they wouldn't have been published. And none of us would grok.

They are big amongst the mindless hollywood types. Holding a can of rocks to get rid of negative energy never really appealed to me.

Romans5:1 · May 25, 2004

Hix said:
How on EARTH do you come to that conclusion from the verse I posted? Let me guess, instead of taking what Jesus said literally, you ran to Paul for the answer and interperated him completely out of context by the words of a man that never even knew him. right?

Where in the quote that you gave (Matt. 5:19) did Jesus say anything about establishing a relationship with God? The fact of the matter is, he didn't. And if you will simply go back up a couple of verses from the place where you managed to strip Matt. 5:19 out of its context you have Jesus saying what about fulfilling the Law and the Prophets? As for Paul, just who taught Paul his soteriology? Hmmmmm?

Tell me, when Nicodemous asked Jesus how he could be born again and Jesus said "You are a leader of the Children of Israel and you do not know these things?" what exactly did he mean? Il tell you, being born again was never something introduced with Jesus, it was something that was always known, Jesus went on to say "keep the commandments".

He said no such thing in the legalistic manner that you wish that he would have. Being "born again" has to do with being "born from above," by God, in the spirit, since each individual is spiritually dead prior to God's regeneration of him. Jesus said that that only takes place when one "believes" or places their faith in him, not in some legalistic code and personal efforts. This is seen quite clearly in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shold not perish, but have eternal life." As for commandment keeping, Jesus stressed loving God, and equally loving one's neighbor, which Paul did state as the fulfillment of the "whole Law" (Gal. 5:14).

Il sort through my 40 verses, I hope you dont mind me using some OT since it is part of the Bible and everything.

No one ever said that God's laws were abolished as far as understanding the nature and holiness of God. What was abolished when Jesus came was the idea that righteousness with God could be established by keeping the Law. Do you know why? Because God proved to humans that they could not keep the Law due to the inherent sin nature in everyone! That is why Jesus came to not only fulfill the Law through his sacrifice, but also to abolish it as a means of attaining righteousness through the legalistic efforts of human beings. Faith in Christ is humanity's only means through which a man or woman may now have a righteous, just, perfect, holy, peaceful, joyous relationship with God; not the Law.

While I appreciate the OT references, just remember this: "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me [Jesus]"John 5:39. If you miss out on the fact that the Scriptures are bearing witness to the person of Jesus Christ, then you really have not understood the Scriptures.

That should be enough for now, I have several more if you would like to see them. Point being, G-d consistantly says to follow the Torah and have faith in him FOREVER. Now you are trying to say that not only did G-d lie and change his mind, something he said he would never do (see above) but you claim the Torah is less than perfect. Therefor you insult G-d.

I'm insulting no one, and you've completely missed the message of the Bible, including the Torah. God commanded his own to obey, yes. His own failed miserably in keeping God's commands. God graciously sent His only-begotten Son to pay the ultimate sacrifice to atone for man's disobedience. Jesus, in paying that sacrifice with his own blood, fulfilled ALL the obligations of the Law, the very one's that humans could not keep. Mankind can now, by placing their faith in Jesus Christ, are now declared righteous, holy, and justifed before God, as if they had kept the whole Law. Hix, the part that you've missed in all your Bible quoting is what God did for you in the person of Jesus.

Thats lovely, of cource Id rather follow what the Bible has to say and ignore what the Pastor says.

Well, if you've missed the integral role of Jesus, then you've missed the Bible.

I get annoyed by christians of your variety whos very theology is built around Paul instead of Jesus, the words of Jesus are interperated in the light of Pauls instead of vice versa. Il bet you wont be quoting any James either

Ahh, another attack on Paul. Once again, just who knocked Paul on his backside, blinded him, and then taught him three years in the Arabian desert? Oh, that's right, Paul just slipped and fell, bumped his head, and voila!...he had a self-revelation that totally turned the world upside down. Ahh, and James...yes, another pet rabbit that all the heretics love to run to when they think they have something to stand on to justify their heretical doctrines. Sorry, Hix, but James, Paul, and Jesus are all in perfect harmony with one another. They're all saying, "Belief precedes works, not works leads to belief."

Oh my, more personal attacks A gentile trying to tell me Im not a Jew, that is quite funny.

No, God is telling you that you're not a Jew "inwardly," circumcised of the heart.

Though it doesnt really matter, it doesnt change the fact I have a relationship with G-d and I know and love him.

And just how was that relationship established? Apparently you think that legalism is the way, and if so, let me ask you, like I ask all the legalists in the Christian cults trying to establish a similar relationship with God: How's the law keeping going? Have you managed to keep ALL the laws perfectly? You certainly have been pretty sinful in your responses in this forum, so things can't be going all that well in the rest of your life. You do realize that God does require absolute perfection, don't you? And that by placing yourself under the law to establish your righteousness with God, that you've placed yourself under a curse. So, how's the legalistic effort going?

Im willing to admit you do as well, even though we disagree on theology. What then of the LDS?

Why thank you, but my love is not based on my legalistic efforts. As for the LDS, as I've stated before, if a person gets ahold of the wrong god (and the Mormons have), then just what kind of love can they have for anything, whether it be for G/god, their neighbors, or their selves? It certainly isn't the kind of love that God demonstrated to them in the person of Jesus Christ, I'll guarantee you that. And if they fail to experience that kind of love, then just what possible destiny do you think they're going to face?

IMHO you make a gross mockery of Jesus, his message, his love for everyone regardless of who they were and the consistant messages of the Bible. Want me to hound you in every thread from now on?

First, from what you've said thus far, you don't know Jesus either. So, what you think you know about his message and love are equally meaningless. As for what you do on this board, you do just whatever your corrupt, little heart desires. I have absolute confidence that those at CF are capable of handling their business.

First of all, I came to this thread to stand up for LDS. No matter what they did they do not deserve to be cheap shot and attacked in the manner in which you have displayed. They have shown courtesy and the most Jesus like thing you could do is return that.

Well, you can't stand for something that you know nothing about. And if you really knew anything about Mormonism, then you'd be a fool to stand for it, given what you apparently believe about God. Furthermore, since you do not understand the agenda of Mormons, let me just inform you a little. The "courtesy" you mention is a ruse, and part of the proselytizing strategy handed down from the PR department in Salt Lake City, with Gordon B. Hinckley as the master. As I tried to tell you before, but you wouldn't listen, Mormons hate genuine Christians, as evidenced by the comments, and doctrines, of their founder Joseph Smith. As Mormonism has progressed, they found out that the vitriolic lies they were spewing about orthodox Christianity was not working as hoped by bringing in converts. A change occurred, as they held their ground as being the "only true church," but they incorporated the kinder and gentler idea of feigning the idea that all these "churches of the devil" actually had some truth in them. Hence, now you see Gordon B., the missionaries, LDS web apologists, and others, exercising a positive PR campaign to try and show everyone just how nice and Christiany Mormonism really is, and that Mormons are just another denomination of Christianity. That all the other "Christians" are our brothers, with an understanding of truth, just not all of it. All of that is nothing but deception, intended to break down people's defenses, and absorb people into the ranks of Mormonism. Now, if you think that's courteous, then you obviously have been reading a Mormon Dictionary of Redefined Terms.

Second of all, I dont really care at this point who they think Jesus was, suffice it to say its different from who *I* think he was.

So, if I started spreading that beliefs that you were the illegitimate son of a relationship between your father and your sister; that your brother was Lucifer; that your father, grandfather, great-grandfather, ad infinitum were equally illegitimate; and that you were polygamously married to at least three of your sisters, that would not bother you in the least? For some strange reason, I think all of the sudden, you would care. You know why? Because I've seen how you've reacted toward something that for whatever reason you've taken personally. Mormonism is a sick, demented, caricature of Christianity, and when I hear or read some of the things it has to say about my Jesus (like the above), I get incensed! For I know the source. It's demonic, and it has nothing but detrimental effects on everyone too blind to discern what is going on. I'm hoping that someday soon your eyes will open.

But what Im saying is that the LDS are to be given credit, to say they do not love G-d is in error even if their views of him are different from your own.

The LDS deserve nothing! Period. Once again, if one gets ahold of a perverse, demented, view of a god (who cannot exist), then just what kind of "love" can they truly exhibit? A perverse, demented love, that does not exist.

Third of all, if your insistant on showing people the error of their ways and bringing them into the light, then funny thing is that INSULTING them doesnt do much to help.

Example please.

*shrugs* I dont know whether the article is true or not, but thankfully we havent had swatisticas branded on our Shuls by LDS, or windows broken.

That was just one article. There are others.

And if it has to come down to the LDS branded you with swasticas, then don't you think that just might be a little too late? I'm trying to warn you, and you keep looking the other way. Just remember, the longer you keep on defending evil, the sooner you will be enslaved to it.

I never said that, I said that the LDS love G-d, to me you erect your own caricature of both Jesus or G-d so you are both in the same boat. How about you save your missionising for those who DONT know G-d?

The Mormons don't know God, and neither do you. So, thanks for the permission to keep on doing what I'm doing.

Fair enough. My G-d is the G-d of the Bible.

Then start listening to him, and quit defending the Mormons. Because their god is a pagan idol.

And I am SO glad that Jesus did not take your approach with the sinners, instead of insulting, attcking, cheap shotting, condeming and hating others becuase they are different and wrong.

Apparently you've never read Matthew 23. You might want to look at that sometime.

Instead he dined with them, loved them with a true love, an example we are to follow. I can just imagine what your aproach would have done to poor Zachaous. Oy vey!

He dined with the scribes and the Pharisees? He loved the false prophets? He never called Herod a derogatory name? What Bible are you reading, if you're reading one at all?

Jesus didnt have a problem loving people with other gods either. The Samartian woman, for example.

Excuse me, but Jesus had all kinds of problems with idolatry, otherwise he would have never warned anyone about wolves in sheeps clothing, the inability to serve two masters, or made the proclamation that there is only one true God. As for the Samaritan woman, she was hardly a scribe or a Pharisee, nor was her issue regarding her illicit behavior relative to commiting idolatry in the legalistic fashion that the scribes and Pharisees did. So, your analogy is weak at best, if not misguided altogether.

Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone please.

Mixing up our stories, I see. The woman caught in adultery was not a Samaritan, nor is your allusion anything similar to what I've been writing in reference to Mormonism, Scientology, or legalistic Judaism. And who was it that said I had a poor grasp of Scripture?

I have yet to see you quote one place in Scripture it says to attack the unbelievers.

And I have yet to see where I have "attacked" anyone. Exposed religious beliefs that are foreign to Christian beliefs, yet wish the liberty to be called "Christian," but I have not attacked anyone.

You can call me a heretic if you want, but Im going to be a thorn in your side then becuase theres a whole forum of like minded thinkers such as myself in the Christian Only area. Sorry, but really christianity doesnt fit in the box you place it in.

Just reserve your whine for the times when you're eating cheese, as not for times when your heresies are exposed, and instead of addressing the issue, you feel the need to whine to the board operators.

Romans5:1 · May 25, 2004

Wisdom's Child said:
Oh Man,

I think that I will start a thread on the subject of Zen Budism, so that you Wolves can have another opportunity to Bash Mormons.

Or maybe, the Mythras Cults, or Zorasterism, or maybe I will come up with something fictional.

PPL THE OP OF THIS THREAD IS ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY

Christians, must I remind you that you are Commanded to Love Your Enemies?
This Mindless and Continual Emotional Rave against Mormonism that contaminates virtually every thread in the UT Forum is like YEAST

I am truely sorry that I even posted in this Forum, for there is no Fruit to be Found in This Insanity

And just how many Scientologists have you seen on this board? Not one. Mormons? Too many to count, with the numbers growing. Think about it.

Hix · May 25, 2004

Romans5:1 said:
Where in the quote that you gave (Matt. 5:19) did Jesus say anything about establishing a relationship with God? The fact of the matter is, he didn't. And if you will simply go back up a couple of verses from the place where you managed to strip Matt. 5:19 out of its context you have Jesus saying what about fulfilling the Law and the Prophets? As for Paul, just who taught Paul his soteriology? Hmmmmm?

But what does fullfilling mean? Jesus said he had not come to abolish its observance, yet somehow you interperate fulfillment to mean he did. I say he WAS the Torah according to 1 John 1.

I think "Paulian" would be a more appropriate title for you to bear

Romans5:1 said:
He said no such thing in the legalistic manner that you wish that he would have. Being "born again" has to do with being "born from above," by God, in the spirit, since each individual is spiritually dead prior to God's regeneration of him. Jesus said that that only takes place when one "believes" or places their faith in him, not in some legalistic code and personal efforts. This is seen quite clearly in John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shold not perish, but have eternal life." As for commandment keeping, Jesus stressed loving God, and equally loving one's neighbor, which Paul did state as the fulfillment of the "whole Law" (Gal. 5:14).

Im sorry but that conflicts the entire message of scripture. I have shown you over 40 times and I can show you more it says to the contrary, including ones that say we will be following the law when Jesus returns. I try to keep scripture in harmony instead of having to forget large chunks of it to fit into twisted hellenized ideology.

Being born again is mentioned in the Torah, did you know that? Its called being circumsized in the heart and its accomplished by believing in G-d and following his law. The two work in harmony, split them up and you have nothing.

Romans5:1 said:
No one ever said that God's laws were abolished as far as understanding the nature and holiness of God. What was abolished when Jesus came was the idea that righteousness with God could be established by keeping the Law. Do you know why? Because God proved to humans that they could not keep the Law due to the inherent sin nature in everyone! That is why Jesus came to not only fulfill the Law through his sacrifice, but also to abolish it as a means of attaining righteousness through the legalistic efforts of human beings. Faith in Christ is humanity's only means through which a man or woman may now have a righteous, just, perfect, holy, peaceful, joyous relationship with God; not the Law.

You used the word abolish! hahahaha!!! brilliant, you have just contradicted what Jesus said using the exact word Jesus said he didnt come to do.

BTW you seem to think that we cannot keep the law, which is funny becuase that is a claim that G-d sets unrealistic targets for us, and what of this verse:
Deuteronomy 30:11 For this commandment that I command you today -- it is not hidden from you and it is not distant. [12] It is not in heaven, [for you] to say, "Who can ascend to the heaven for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it?" [13] Nor is it across the sea, [for you] to say, "Who can cross to the other side of the sea for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it?" [14] Rather, the matter is very near to you -- in your mouth and your heart -- to perform it.

Now here G-d clearly says we can perform the laws. I suppose hes a lier now is he?

Also, saying that Jesus abolished the law is making him a false messiah, acording to this verse:
Deuteronomy 13:1 The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying "Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!" [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst.

According to that verse, if anything was changed from what the Children of Israel were taught at Mount Sinai, then whoever changed it is a false prophet. And the children of Israel were taught to follow Torah forever as I have shown so....

Romans5:1 said:
While I appreciate the OT references, just remember this: "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me [Jesus]"John 5:39. If you miss out on the fact that the Scriptures are bearing witness to the person of Jesus Christ, then you really have not understood the Scriptures.

It is clear you have very little grasp on who the Jewish promised messiah was and his role.

Romans5:1 said:
I'm insulting no one, and you've completely missed the message of the Bible, including the Torah. God commanded his own to obey, yes. His own failed miserably in keeping God's commands. God graciously sent His only-begotten Son to pay the ultimate sacrifice to atone for man's disobedience. Jesus, in paying that sacrifice with his own blood, fulfilled ALL the obligations of the Law, the very one's that humans could not keep. Mankind can now, by placing their faith in Jesus Christ, are now declared righteous, holy, and justifed before God, as if they had kept the whole Law. Hix, the part that you've missed in all your Bible quoting is what God did for you in the person of Jesus.

So what your saying is, Jesus did the right thing so we dont have to, right? Actually, Jesus didnt keep the entire law, did you know that? Some of the law applies only to women, some to owning land in Israel, some to married couples with children etc. Jesus did keep the law to the best of his ability, and so do I. G-d expects nothing more than what we can accomplish.

Romans5:1 said:
Well, if you've missed the integral role of Jesus, then you've missed the Bible.

I couldnt agree more. Youve misses the Bible Im afraid. The integeral role of Jesus is no different from the Torah, thats why he taught we should follow it. G-d doesnt change, sorry.

Romans5:1 said:
Ahh, another attack on Paul. Once again, just who knocked Paul on his backside, blinded him, and then taught him three years in the Arabian desert? Oh, that's right, Paul just slipped and fell, bumped his head, and voila!...he had a self-revelation that totally turned the world upside down. Ahh, and James...yes, another pet rabbit that all the heretics love to run to when they think they have something to stand on to justify their heretical doctrines. Sorry, Hix, but James, Paul, and Jesus are all in perfect harmony with one another. They're all saying, "Belief precedes works, not works leads to belief."

Oh they are huh? Funny that Luther wanted James removed from the Bible, so darn inconvenient saying that we needed to follow Torah! And Jesus? Oh he said he didnt come to abolish it but really he did....sorta....yeah.... :scratch:

I take the words of the Torah receieved direct from G-d to Moses at Mount Sinai over the words of anyone. The Torah warns us about these "dreamers" who change things, its clear Paul was in their ranks. Faith without Torah is empty.

Romans5:1 said:
No, God is telling you that you're not a Jew "inwardly," circumcised of the heart.

Wow thats amazing, do tell me other things that G-d is saying, you after all appear to be his human mouth peice. Dont be so quick to judge me just becuase I follow the Torah like the Bible says. Under CFs rules Im a christian

Romans5:1 said:
And just how was that relationship established? Apparently you think that legalism is the way, and if so, let me ask you, like I ask all the legalists in the Christian cults trying to establish a similar relationship with God: How's the law keeping going? Have you managed to keep ALL the laws perfectly? You certainly have been pretty sinful in your responses in this forum, so things can't be going all that well in the rest of your life. You do realize that God does require absolute perfection, don't you? And that by placing yourself under the law to establish your righteousness with God, that you've placed yourself under a curse. So, how's the legalistic effort going?

Like I said earlier, noone can keep all the law, not even Jesus could because not all the law is applicable. But yes I keep it to the best of my ability, but I mess up occasionally, repent and am forgiven then try not to do so next time. Everytime you dont follow Torah you are willingly sinning.

Deuteronomy 4:27-31 (27) And the L-rd will scatter you among the peoples, and you will remain few in number among the nations where the L-rd will lead you. (28) And there you will serve gods, the work of mens hands, wood and stone, which do not see, and do not hear, and do not eat, and do not smell. (29) And if, from there, you will seek the L-rd your G-d, then you will find Him, if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. (30) When you are in distress, and these words will find their way to you; in the end of days, you will return to the L-rd your G-d, and you will obey him; (31) For the L-rd your G-d is a merciful G-d, He will not forsake you and will not destroy you; and He will not forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

Romans5:1 said:
Why thank you, but my love is not based on my legalistic efforts. As for the LDS, as I've stated before, if a person gets ahold of the wrong god (and the Mormons have), then just what kind of love can they have for anything, whether it be for G/god, their neighbors, or their selves? It certainly isn't the kind of love that God demonstrated to them in the person of Jesus Christ, I'll guarantee you that. And if they fail to experience that kind of love, then just what possible destiny do you think they're going to face?

Oh my, did you know Torah isnt legalism? It commands us to love G-d first, then to follow his commandments. Sounds exactly like what Jesus said, would be consistant with the Bible, no?
Once again, you are a very bitter individual indeed, I would fear for the well being of a Mormon who ever came in contact with you.

Romans5:1 said:
First, from what you've said thus far, you don't know Jesus either. So, what you think you know about his message and love are equally meaningless. As for what you do on this board, you do just whatever your corrupt, little heart desires. I have absolute confidence that those at CF are capable of handling their business.

LOL ah the hypocricy.

How about we agree to disagree. I follow the Jewish interperation of Jesus, you follow the hellenized one

Romans5:1 said:
Well, you can't stand for something that you know nothing about. And if you really knew anything about Mormonism, then you'd be a fool to stand for it, given what you apparently believe about God. Furthermore, since you do not understand the agenda of Mormons, let me just inform you a little. The "courtesy" you mention is a ruse, and part of the proselytizing strategy handed down from the PR department in Salt Lake City, with Gordon B. Hinckley as the master. As I tried to tell you before, but you wouldn't listen, Mormons hate genuine Christians, as evidenced by the comments, and doctrines, of their founder Joseph Smith. As Mormonism has progressed, they found out that the vitriolic lies they were spewing about orthodox Christianity was not working as hoped by bringing in converts. A change occurred, as they held their ground as being the "only true church," but they incorporated the kinder and gentler idea of feigning the idea that all these "churches of the devil" actually had some truth in them. Hence, now you see Gordon B., the missionaries, LDS web apologists, and others, exercising a positive PR campaign to try and show everyone just how nice and Christiany Mormonism really is, and that Mormons are just another denomination of Christianity. That all the other "Christians" are our brothers, with an understanding of truth, just not all of it. All of that is nothing but deception, intended to break down people's defenses, and absorb people into the ranks of Mormonism. Now, if you think that's courteous, then you obviously have been reading a Mormon Dictionary of Redefined Terms.

I think your paranoid. Why cant you give the benefit of the doubt and say that the actions of a few mormons dont represent the actions of the majority, who love G-d and only wish to live without fellow christians persecution.

Romans5:1 said:
The LDS deserve nothing! Period. Once again, if one gets ahold of a perverse, demented, view of a god (who cannot exist), then just what kind of "love" can they truly exhibit? A perverse, demented love, that does not exist.

Wow, now this is a true example of hatred. Jesus said to love everyone, not to "love those who agree with you". I think your view of G-d is perverse but Im commanded to love you, and believe it or not I have a great amount of respect for you.

Romans5:1 said:
The Mormons don't know God, and neither do you. So, thanks for the permission to keep on doing what I'm doing.

Ok then. I dont know your god, I follow the G-d of Abraham Isaac and Jacob so I just wonder what diety you then follow?

Romans5:1 said:
He dined with the scribes and the Pharisees?

Excuse me, but Jesus had all kinds of problems with idolatry, otherwise he would have never warned anyone about wolves in sheeps clothing, the inability to serve two masters, or made the proclamation that there is only one true God. As for the Samaritan woman, she was hardly a scribe or a Pharisee, nor was her issue regarding her illicit behavior relative to commiting idolatry in the legalistic fashion that the scribes and Pharisees did. So, your analogy is weak at best, if not misguided altogether.

ahhhhhh THANK YOU. You reminded me of the scribes and pharisees, I almost forgot about them. They came to Jesus and started mumbling "why does he eat with sinners and theives" (funny that they would observe him doing that, when you say he didnt) and Jesus said "The sick need not a doctor, so too I have come for the sick not the healthy". Jesus calls the Pharisees and scribes healthy, hypocritical but healthy. Why do ya think?

perhaps by following what G-d said would make them healthy forever?

Romans5:1 said:
And I have yet to see where I have "attacked" anyone. Exposed religious beliefs that are foreign to Christian beliefs, yet wish the liberty to be called "Christian," but I have not attacked anyone.

lol well, funny thing is that several people have PMd me to say how insulted they were at your posts and apologised on your behalf. Beliefs that are foreign to the box you place christianity in maybe, but not to the religion expoused in the Bible.

Romans5:1 said:
Just reserve your whine for the times when you're eating cheese, as not for times when your heresies are exposed, and instead of addressing the issue, you feel the need to whine to the board operators.

Actually I never whined to the board operators. I didnt report you after all, becuase believe it or not, I was once exactly like you.
I like it when you talk about me being a heretic, just backs up my position all the more. Heretic is a free thinker, yeah il admit it Im willing to look at the Bible free from the chains of the sunday pastor. I look at it through the Jewish mindset as that is the way it is to be viewed. You dont, and thats your biggest downfall.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

LifeToTheFullest! · May 25, 2004

Altanqa said:
Of course I have a problem with that - God gave you no such right. He discerns what is Christian and what is not - not any of His children.

Perhaps you could explain these three verses to me. Thank you in advance.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

2 Timothy 4:2-4 "Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

Titus 2:1 "But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine:"

Peace

Wisdom's Child · May 25, 2004

Romans5:1 said:
And just how many Scientologists have you seen on this board? Not one. Mormons? Too many to count, with the numbers growing. Think about it.

???

Ok, I thought about it....

1. There need not be Scientologists present in order for us to discuss Scientology.

2. Roman, frankly it is attitudes like those that are displayed in this forum which are driving more people towards Mormonism, because thanks to people that call themselves Christian but are not make the Mormons look like the ones that appear more tolerant, family oriented and at peace while under persecution, You think about That!

3. ....Edited due to Complaint.... But you Proved my point by doing so.

4. From what I am witnessing here, regardless of Doctrine or Dogma, The Mormons are at least acting like Christians.

5. Go ahead and throw your stones cause I am outa here....

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