Chirality..........

mark kennedy

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L'Anatra said:
Obviously you know something we don't, Mark. Explain to me how the theory of evolution has anything to do with the origin of life. Come on, let's hear it.

Oh no, I don't walk down those dark alleys alone anymore. They are allways dead ends.

By the way, I'm sure the life on this planet cares about how you think it got here. Personal incredulity does not make an argument.

But your argument from incredulity about what I know that the rest of you don't is an argument. :scratch:

I won't even touch the final paragraph. "Darwinian prose?" What in the world is a "Darwinian?" :scratch:

Ponder the quote in my signiture and it might interest you to know the 'warm little pond' of Darwin is a superheated thermovent in the mind of the modern evolutionist. The quote is a little ditty from Darwin's grandpappy, a little insight into the cultural influence from the enlightenment since you have no idea what I meant by a Dawinian.
 
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L'Anatra

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mark kennedy said:
Oh no, I don't walk down those dark alleys alone anymore. They are allways dead ends.
Indeed.

But your argument from incredulity about what I know that the rest of you don't is an argument. :scratch:
No, it was not. I wasn't making an argument at all. I was merely asking for you to explain to me how abiogenesis is relevant to evolution.

Ponder the quote in my signiture and it might interest you to know the 'warm little pond' of Darwin is a superheated thermovent in the mind of the modern evolutionist. The quote is a little ditty from Darwin's grandpappy, a little insight into the cultural influence from the enlightenment since you have no idea what I meant by a Dawinian.
I read your quote. Sure, there are parallels. Many advances have been made in the field of biochemistry since Darwin was alive.
 
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L'Anatra

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jobob said:
everyone needs to REREAD the OP for content........

EVOLUTION IS NOT THE POINT AGAIN...........
I agree. Therefore, I felt the need to point out to Mark Kennedy that evolution has nothing to do with the OP.
 
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JohnR7

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jobob said:
[color=#f07005 said:
answersingenesis[/color]]The experiment is great experimental chemistry, but as usual, the difference between creationists and evolutionists is not the data, but their interpretation, because of their different presuppositions. Creationists dispute no observations by evolutionists, but often vigorously oppose the conclusions evolutionists draws from their observations.
This is pretty much what I have been saying. Evolutions feel that because their observations maybe valid that the conclusions they draw from that observation must be equally valid. This is what creationists argue against, not against the observation, but against the presuppositions that evolutionists make in regard to those obeservations.

Again, Evolutions feel that if their observation is valid, then the conclusions they draw from those observations must be equally valid and it is here that they have deceived themselves.
 
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mark kennedy

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Of course not, I said that abiogenesis had nothing to do with it didn't you read my post? So what is the point of the thread if it links an article on the topic and posts it to the creation/evolution debate forum?
 
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Frumious Bandersnatch

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mark kennedy said:
Oh of course! The meterorites or comets carrying just one for of chrial molecules seeded Earth with the precursors of life. The Murchism meteorite did have predominantly the left-handed form of the amino acid alanine so all you need is some iron pryrite (fools gold) and some cryptic scientific process in a lab and mystery solved. Don't take it wrong fB I'm just having some fun with this one.
Which indicates that there may be natural mechanisms for producing chiral molecules in space. Like I said the scenarios are highly speculative. At this point we certainly can't rule out the idea that God or Changing Women or Zeus or some other supernatural diety created the first cells or maybe even the first multicellular life a few billion years ago. We can rule out the 6000 year old earth and we have pretty good evidence for evolution over the last few hundred million years but IMO the origin of life on earth will never be conclusively shown to be natural. On the other hand I don't think it will ever be proven to be supernatural either.

the frumious Bandersnatch
 
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revolutio

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JohnR7 said:
Again, Evolutions feel that if their observation is valid, then the conclusions they draw from those observations must be equally valid and it is here that they have deceived themselves.
Not much bugs me, but people informing me of what I feel and believe does come quite close.
 
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Douglaangu

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mark kennedy said:
Of course not, I said that abiogenesis had nothing to do with it didn't you read my post? So what is the point of the thread if it links an article on the topic and posts it to the creation/evolution debate forum?
Because this used to be the Science, Creation and Evolution forum.
 
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SanDiegoAtheist

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Jet Black said:
hey look at that. Sarfati doesn't mention the murchinson meteorite. What a non-suprise.

He also doesn't mention the fact that R-handed molecules are inherently less stable than L-handed molecules - something that wasn't known 30 years ago or so, but which science has since answered - like most other Creationist arguments. Go figure.

When will Creationists learn that pointing out unknown factors in someone else's theory (unless they conclusively disprove the theory, and are not merely unknowns), has absolutely no bearing on one's own theory?

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist
 
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Data

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Having actually studied chilarity -

"But ordinary chemistry always produces a 50/50 mixture of left and right handed forms (enantiomers)—such a mix is called a racemate or racemic mixture. Chemists normally require pre-existing homochirality, usually from a biological source, to synthesize homochiral compounds . But this illustrates the problem of the origin of biological homochirality in the first place."

What in the frick are they talking about?

The enantiomer you get is based on the reaction mechanism - it just happens that using an enzyme only gives you one reaction pathway. This is no problem for abiogenesis, of course, as no-one except AIG is expecting early forms to have ANY of these chemicals to begin with.

Idiocy.
 
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lucaspa

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jobob, please go to the thread http://www.christianforums.com/t155621 Part of the "chirality problem" is addressed there. What AiG doesn't acknowledge is that chirality can come after the first life is formed with that life using both isomers of amino acids. One indication of the misinformation they give you is that modern life is totally chiral and that proteins don't work if they have one D amino acid. In fact, every species has at least one protein with some D amino acids in it! All bacteria, for instance, have D amino acids in their cell walls.

Another indication of AiG's misinformation is the statement quoted by REvolutio:
A huge barrier for those desiring to be ‘intellectually fulfilled atheists’1 is finding a naturalistic origin of the first living organisms. Despite some evasion by major evolutionary propagandists, this is a part of the ‘General Theory of Evolution’, defined by the evolutionist Kerkut as ‘the theory that all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form.’2

These guys aren't discussing evolution. They are arguing the atheism vs theism debate and trying to find a "gap" to insert God into. But notice something. AiG is accepting the basic statement of faith of atheism! That is, they are saying that natural = without God! If there is a natural method to get life from non-life via chemistry, AiG is saying God is absent! Now, why would they do that? Why cannot God create the first life by chemistry?

We can go into more papers showing how chirality can arise after the first proteins or RNA are formed. There are several ways this can happen. Below is just one:

Z Naturforsch [C] 1997 Jan;52(1-2):89-96
Plural origins of molecular homochirality in our biota Part II. The relative
stabilities of homochiral and mixed oligoribotides and peptides.
Soares TA, Lins RD, Longo R, Garratt R, Ferreira R
Departamento de Quimica Fundamental, Universidade Federal de Pernambuco,
Brasil.
By computer simulations--molecular mechanics and molecular dynamics with the
amber force field (Weiner et al, (1986), J. Comp. Chem. 7, 230-252)--we have
determined the stabilities of oligoribotide strands built with D- and
L-riboses, and of peptide chains with D- and L-amino acid residues. In
particular, complementary double-chains of oligoribotides were studied, since
they are an important feature of the growing mechanism of modern nucleic acids.
Peptide chains on the other hand, grow without need of a template. We found
that mixed oligoribotides are less stable than homochiral ones, and that this
chiral effect is less noticeable in peptide chains. The results support the
interpretation that L-riboses act as terminators to the template-assisted
growth of oligo-r-GD (enantiometric cross-inhibition; Joyce et al., (1987),
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 84, 4398-4402). Based on this effect, a chemical
pathway is proposed which could, under assumed prebiotic conditions, bypass the
hindrance of homochiral growth.
 
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jobob

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Lucaspa........
thanks for the link.......

Im checking out the links in that post as I type this.

I guess I have to keep in mind tho, that evolutionsts will continue to try to find a way to make life having happened naturally and creations will only settle for ..... well, Adam and Eve....

So far in reading I havent seen anything new........ Im trying to be as objective as possible........ but all this still assumes conditions that were improbable and speculation.

''Based on this effect, a chemical pathway is proposed which could, under assumed prebiotic conditions, bypass the hindrance of homochiral growth''


I will keep looking at it tho........
 
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