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CCWoody · Apr 22, 2003

[align=center]FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?
(A tidbit of good ol' Puritan logic from the good doctor, John Owen.)[/align]

[line]

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.[font="Times New Roman, Times"][/font]

 
In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

 
You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

Ragman · Apr 22, 2003

I answer none of the above

OldBadfish · Apr 22, 2003

John 3:35-36

[35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:15-17

[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It seems to me that the sins are paid for, but there are stipulations. You must be born again of the spirit. And one must believe.

The act of believing does not seem consistent with election, because the act of an individual believing has to be a conscience and freewilled decision.

Once a person has embraced belief, then he is saved, and because he is saved, then he will demonstrate the fruits of the spirit.

"Believing" is more than just believing, once you are saved you must walk the walk, or do your darndest, God see's the hearts of men, he knows who practices and strives to demonstrate the fruits of the spirit.

Because God loved his son so much he gave him the world, and careful reading of the scriptures will be the handbook which teaches how to be a believer and the duties that come with it.

You've gotta walk the walk.

CCWoody · Apr 22, 2003

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.

Today at 08:12 PM Ragman said this in Post #2

I answer none of the above

I see. You deny the Atonement in favor of one of the new liberal "theories" about the nature of Christ's sacrifice. Tell me, which false view do you believe?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

CCWoody · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 08:35 PM Badfish said this in Post #3

John 3:35-36

[35] The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
[36] He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:15-17

[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

It seems to me that the sins are paid for, but there are stipulations. You must be born again of the spirit. And one must believe.

The act of believing does not seem consistent with election, because the act of an individual believing has to be a conscience and freewilled decision.

Once a person has embraced belief, then he is saved, and because he is saved, then he will demonstrate the fruits of the spirit.

"Believing" is more than just believing, once you are saved you must walk the walk, or do your darndest, God see's the hearts of men, he knows who practices and strives to demonstrate the fruits of the spirit.

Because God loved his son so much he gave him the world, and careful reading of the scriptures will be the handbook which teaches how to be a believer and the duties that come with it.

You've gotta walk the walk.

Badfish, either unbelief is....

a SIN

--- OR ---
NOT a SIN

What say ye!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Jerry_M · Apr 22, 2003

Aren't there more than three non-Calvinists on this board who wish to discuss these topics?

Seems to me that too many are reveling in their personal blessings, while few seem willing to face the hard issues of theology.

Of course, theology is not for cowards, but it seems surprising that a forum that is decidedly Christian in nature has fewer participants for theological discussions than a non-Christian forum like FreeRepublic.

I remember that the same material was posted on FreeRepublic some time ago, and generated comments from several hundred posters in a matter of a few hours. I will be surprised if this one generates more than 20 posts from five or six posters this next week.

Jephunneh · Apr 22, 2003

"FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?"

Me, Praise His Name!

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

OldBadfish · Apr 22, 2003

Well it keeps you from heaven so it doesn't matter. A sin is forgivable, unbelief is not, unless one comes to eventually believing.

So since it actually keeps you from heaven I would say that it is at least a sin. (given that the person has sufficient knowledge of the gospel and Christ, to make an educated decision)

OldBadfish · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 07:12 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #6

Aren't there more than three non-Calvinists on this board who wish to discuss these topics?

Seems to me that too many are reveling in their personal blessings, while few seem willing to face the hard issues of theology.

Of course, theology is not for cowards, but it seems surprising that a forum that is decidedly Christian in nature has fewer participants for theological discussions than a non-Christian forum like FreeRepublic.

I remember that the same material was posted on FreeRepublic some time ago, and generated comments from several hundred posters in a matter of a few hours. I will be surprised if this one generates more than 20 posts from five or six posters this next week.

That's because it is a good topic and difficult to reconcile, many people do not want to tackle it, or even try to understand. And I believe with Christ, we don't really have to.

The Calvinists bring the tough questions and tough scriptures. Both positions (Arminianism, Calvinism) appear to have validity, so I think they cancel each other and anyone who believes and walks the walk (even if they stumble) are the one's going to heaven.

OldBadfish · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 06:52 PM CCWoody said this in Post #5

Badfish, either unbelief is....

a SIN

--- OR ---

NOT a SIN

What say ye!

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

It's a big fat sin!

Jerry_M · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 08:14 PM Badfish said this in Post #8

Well it keeps you from heaven so it doesn't matter. A sin is forgivable, unbelief is not, unless one comes to eventually believing.

So since it actually keeps you from heaven I would say that it is at least a sin. (given that the person has sufficient knowledge of the gospel and Christ, to make an educated decision)

So, if unbelief is an unforgiveable sin, how is it ever resolved?

By dredging up saving belief from out of one's own resources, or as a gift from God (Eph 2:8,9)? If the latter, then why don't all receive this gift so as to deal with this unforgivealbe sin problem?

Could it be that we Calvinists are correct in saying that "Salvation is of the LORD", and that He saves all those on whom He pours out His mercy?

Now, as for your last disclaimer about individuals not having "sufficient knowledge of the gospel", so as to "make an educated decision", just what is your belief concerning their destiny. Do they get a "free pass" if they never hear?

Jephunneh · Apr 22, 2003

Romans 14:23
:for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

SBfaithful · Apr 22, 2003

The unbelief is resolved by belief.
The only sin that you can not be forgiven for is not believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whenever you turn from unbelief to belief, then you are saved.

OldBadfish · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 07:21 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #11

Now, as for your last disclaimer about individuals not having "sufficient knowledge of the gospel", so as to "make an educated decision", just what is your belief concerning their destiny. Do they get a "free pass" if they never hear?

I hope so.

Jerry_M · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 08:34 PM Badfish said this in Post #14

I hope so.

If that is the case, then why evangelize?

Wouldn't it be much better for someone to get their "free pass of ignorance" than to actually hear the Gospel, and reject Christ as happens all too often? I can see it now, some person standing before God at the judgment sees you in the crowd and says "But God, it was all his fault, if he hadn't told me of Jesus, then I wouldn't have rejected Him!"

No, there is no "free pass" for ignorance, please read Romans Chapter One, to see what the Apostle Paul had to say on the subject. (And, while you are at it, keep on reading and maybe by the time you finish Chapters Three or Five you will realize just how lost men are without Christ, and the total lostness of the entire world.

Maybe, as well, you will come to realize just why it is that all of the major Missionary movements have been spearheaded by Calvinists. We actually believe that men are dead in trespasses and sins, and that they need to hear the Gospel.

Townfriend · Apr 22, 2003

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Jerry_M · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 08:32 PM SBfaithful said this in Post #13

The unbelief is resolved by belief.
The only sin that you can not be forgiven for is not believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whenever you turn from unbelief to belief, then you are saved.

How does one turn from unbelief to belief?

Does it come from within themselves, or is it a supernatural gift from God? That is the Key question here.

Either men conjure up saving faith, or it is a gift that God bestows on those upon whom He pours His mercy.

Townfriend · Apr 22, 2003

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OldBadfish · Apr 22, 2003

Today at 07:55 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #17

Does it come from within themselves, or is it a supernatural gift from God? That is the Key question here.

Both, it is a freewilled decision to accept the gift (IMO), then once accepted God fills your heart, God knows the hearts of men.

Townfriend · Apr 22, 2003

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"Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled..." Psalm 11

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"Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled..." Psalm 11

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"Forever, O Lord, thy word is settled..." Psalm 11

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