Predestination/"Free Will"

Yesterday at 10:41 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #396




I thought that I had answered your question when I stated that it doesn't much matter what I wish, does it?

However, if you truly want an answer, that answer would be no. Why? Simply because the testimony of God's Word is that there are, and will be, those who will enter everlasting punishment. Thus, to "wish" that this not be the case would be in contradiction with His desire that my will be in conformity to His. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (II Peter 2:9, quoting Job 21:30)

Your turn: Are you, in reality, a Universalist who believes that all mankind will be redeemed, and feel it necessary to dictate to God what He can and cannot do with His created dirt?

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I am not a universalist.  Although I wish I could be.  I do hope and wish that none would perish, which is not yet as strong as God's own words when He says He is not willing that any would perish.

As for feeling it necessary to dictate to God what He can do with His dirt or with His mankind.  I do not feel it is necessary, God already loves them far more than I do. 

Yesterday at 09:24 PM CCWoody said this in Post #395

Ragman,

Will there be any people who will burn forever in the Lake of Fire or at some point with all those in Hell be reconciled to God and spend eternity with Him?

If there are some people who will spend forever in the Lake of Fire, who exactly are these people?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

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I cannot tell you if people will burn forever in the Lake of Fire. I believe that all mankind has already been reconciled to God in Jesus Christ.  Therefore it is not necessary for folks to go to hell to accomplish what Christ has already accomplished.

Question: Why is it so important to folks to get people to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire?

Yesterday at 10:53 PM CCWoody said this in Post #397



I find it interesting that every single one of us Calvinists who have had dealing with Ragman have come to this question. I believe that Ragman is being disingenuous with us and intentionally attempting to hide his true doctrine from us. As a result, I began to ignore him when he ignored my repeated requests for him to address Romans 6:3-5.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

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Woodman:

I've been straight with you.  You asked me if I was a universalists.  I said no.  I still say no.  Just because you don't have a pidgeon hole to put me in doesn't mean that I have been hiding my position from you.

As for Rom. 6:3-5 I just have not seen the point in the discussion.  But since it is important to you, I'll give it a shot.

Know ye not, that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The writer is discussing the sacrament of baptism where the believer identifies with Jesus Christ's death in water baptism.  He continues to say that since we have identified with Christ in His baptism, we too should walk in a new life after Christ.

Does the act of water baptism for the believer make them "dead in Christ's death?"  I don't think so.  For all men were made dead in Christ's death 2Cor. 5:14.  However, to say that the act of baptism is simply symbolic is not actually correct either as I see baptism as the other sacraments where Christ meets us and gives Himself to us.

Ragman

Today at 07:55 PM Ragman said this in Post #402

I cannot tell you if people will burn forever in the Lake of Fire. I believe that all mankind has already been reconciled to God in Jesus Christ.  Therefore it is not necessary for folks to go to hell to accomplish what Christ has already accomplished.

Question: Why is it so important to folks to get people to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire?

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Quit putting words into my mouth! Your debate tactics are disingenuous at best.

Why can't you say if people will burn forever in the Lake of Fire? Don't you believe Revelation or are you willing to incur the curse upon yourself?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Today at 08:05 PM Ragman said this in Post #403




Woodman:

I've been straight with you.  You asked me if I was a universalists.  I said no.  I still say no.  Just because you don't have a pidgeon hole to put me in doesn't mean that I have been hiding my position from you.

As for Rom. 6:3-5 I just have not seen the point in the discussion.  But since it is important to you, I'll give it a shot.

Know ye not, that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The writer is discussing the sacrament of baptism where the believer identifies with Jesus Christ's death in water baptism.  He continues to say that since we have identified with Christ in His baptism, we too should walk in a new life after Christ.

Does the act of water baptism for the believer make them "dead in Christ's death?"  I don't think so.  For all men were made dead in Christ's death 2Cor. 5:14.  However, to say that the act of baptism is simply symbolic is not actually correct either as I see baptism as the other sacraments where Christ meets us and gives Himself to us.

Ragman

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Ragman, Romans 6:3-5 is not talking about water Baptism.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

DaveKerwin said:

I will keep this short.

Right now, you and I have the free will to choose whatever. To us, we are free, because we are in time.

God is outside of time, to him we are predestined, because all of history is done. He sees all, including our entire lives played out, but we don't

It is rather complex. So are we predestined? Yes, to God. Do we have free will? Yes, to us. This is not an official stance on my part, rather how I have seen it as of late.

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I think my views most closely associate with urs. Although, I do not call myself a Calvanist. I don't claim to be Armenian either though... I just don't know what I am yet. I need so much more studying and praying on this subject. But my beliefs on this subject always go back to "those whom he FOREKNEW he predestined..."~Romans 8:29a Which is where i disagree with the second guy who said that saying that God does not react on us. I do believe that God chose us b/c he knew we would choose him. It works the other way too, we choose him only because he chose us. We can only do this b/c God is not bound to time. It's confusing, and I'm still trying to perfect my beliefs on this and make sure they are correct, but...thats what I believe for now.

faithful4ever said:

I think my views most closely associate with urs. Although, I do not call myself a Calvanist. I don't claim to be Armenian either though... I just don't know what I am yet. I need so much more studying and praying on this subject. But my beliefs on this subject always go back to "those whom he FOREKNEW he predestined..."~Romans 8:29a Which is where i disagree with the second guy who said that saying that God does not react on us. I do believe that God chose us b/c he knew we would choose him. It works the other way too, we choose him only because he chose us. We can only do this b/c God is not bound to time. It's confusing, and I'm still trying to perfect my beliefs on this and make sure they are correct, but...thats what I believe for now.

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I am currently discussing Predestination on a newer thread here: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=831054&postcount=121

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.