John 10:28-29

Ben johnson said:

It all ties into the premise that "salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Him." Abide in Jesus, in that fellowship, and our desires are spiritual; but we must "be diligent of our calling and election, that the gates of Heaven be provided". Diligent about our "abiding in Him" and not "enticed by the lust and desire of sin".
Clearer?

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"salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Him." Very true yet this is not the same kind of salvation that we have been discussing earlier. You are discussing sanctification salvation from the power of sin, which is separate and distinct for justification: salvation from the penalty of sin.

1 Corinthians 3:1-3 (NASB95)

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,

3 for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

Would you agree that the infants in Christ do not share the same level of fellowship with the Father, as the believers in 1 John 2:12-14?

also notice that in I John 5:13 he assures these believers that they have eternal life are there any conditions required to hold on to this life?

NWM said:

"salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Him." Very true yet this is not the same kind of salvation that we have been discussing earlier. You are discussing sanctification salvation from the power of sin, which is separate and distinct for justification: salvation from the penalty of sin.

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There are different KINDS of salvation? Or salvations? Don't passages like Rom5:17-18, show that ---
1. Justification CAME to ALL MEN (18 --- in the same measure as came condemnation)
2. Justification must be RECEIVED for one to BE justified? (17)

Is one who is saved from the penalty of sin, not also justified? Is one who is justified, not also saved from the penalty of sin?

Would you agree that the infants in Christ do not share the same level of fellowship with the Father, as the believers in 1 John 2:12-14?

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The context of 1Cor3 speaks to me of a REBUKE. Paul chastizes them for BEING babes and STILL IN MILK, rather than having MATURED. The question begs --- if one CONTINUES as "babes" --- walking in fleshly ways, then WHAT SPIRIT HAVE THEY RECEIVED??? How can one receive the Lord and Savior Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and NOT grow up?

If they ARE babes, "walking in the flesh" (1Cor3:3), is there some way to disregard verses like Romans 8:13: "If you are LIVING according to the flesh, you must DIE; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will LIVE." Any way to EXEMPT them in 1Cor3, from that dictate of Rom8:13?

If those in 1Jn2 ARE mature, what do you make of his words in verses 26-29? Doesn't John admonish them to ABIDE, SO THAT when He returns we not be ASHAMED??

also notice that in I John 5:13 he assures these believers that they have eternal life are there any conditions required to hold on to this life?

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Wellll, the whole chapter speaks strongly of "faith" and "beleif". It may not have the words "conditions to hold on to this life" in that chapter; but Scripture not-conflicting-with-Scripture, plenty of other passages do. Heb3:14, Col1:13, Heb6:11-12, 2Pet1:5-11, 1Tim4:16, these are SOME that assert "conditions"...

If you look at each one of those I just cited, the CONDITION, is "continue in HIM, in BELIEF.

nwmsugrad said:

Is 1 John 1:9 addressing believers or un believers?

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1 John carries no special introduction, unlike the other New Testamant epistles (except Hebrews). This leads one to believe that this is a kind of circular letter sent to all Christian communities of some region.

If those in 1Jn2 ARE mature, what do you make of his words in verses 26-29? Doesn't John admonish them to ABIDE, SO THAT when He returns we not be ASHAMED??

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John is not admonishing them (they are mature se verses 2:12-14), He is encouraging them to continue to abide. Just because they are abiding now doesn’t mean that they are guaranteed to abide in the future.

1 John 2:25-29 (NASB95)
25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. (“has made” past tense is guaranteed!)

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. (They are trying to cause these Christians to doubt their salvation which is why paul reassures them in verses 2:25 and 5:13 that they possess eternal life.)

27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. (in verse 27 it is obvious that they are abiding in him, Paul is simply telling them to continue to abide. (2 Cor 5:10, I 3:11-15) Verse 25 guarantees that we are saved regardless of whether we continue to abide, If we don’t abide we will shrink in shame and lose rewards, but still “will be saved, yet so as through fire.”)

29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.(Because we know he is righteous and we know we are his children we should act righteous; the verse does not save if I fail to act righteous I am no longer his child.)

I Corinthians 9:27 (NASB95)
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Practical question was Paul’s salvation guaranteed at this point?

The context of 1Cor3 speaks to me of a REBUKE. Paul chastizes them for BEING babes and STILL IN MILK, rather than having MATURED. The question begs --- if one CONTINUES as "babes" --- walking in fleshly ways, then WHAT SPIRIT HAVE THEY RECEIVED??? How can one receive the Lord and Savior Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and NOT grow up?

If they ARE babes, "walking in the flesh" (1Cor3:3), is there some way to disregard verses like Romans 8:13: "If you are LIVING according to the flesh, you must DIE; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will LIVE." Any way to EXEMPT them in 1Cor3, from that dictate of Rom8:13?

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Romans 8:10-13 (NASB95)

10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Does that mean the Roman believers are physically dead? Does it mean the Roman believers have no desire to sin? No it means sin has no power over them.)

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Sin has no power )

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— (because sin has no power)

13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (If I chose to live by the flesh I am cut off from fellowship with the Father)

1 Corinthians 5:1-2 (NASB95)
1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife.

2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
What does this passage mean? How can someone who commits adultery with his father’s wife and fails to repent, be saved in the day of the Lord? What does it mean to be delivered over to satan for the destruction of ones flesh?

Spear Man said:

1 John carries no special introduction, unlike the other New Testamant epistles (except Hebrews). This leads one to believe that this is a kind of circular letter sent to all Christian communities of some region.

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If salvation is not by faith alone, Why does John tell them in verses 2:25 and 5:13 that they possess (past tense) eternal life? What else have they done to ensure enternal life?

John 20:30-31 (NASB95)
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

If something else besides faith is required for salvation where does John discuss it in his gospel. Since his gospel claims to be written (is written) to explain Gods plan of salvation, I am positive that all the requirements for slavation are contained within the book. I have been unable to find a passage in John adding any conditions other than faith alone for salvation. Can you point me to the passage I have overlooked?

NWM said:

John is not admonishing them (they are mature se verses 2:12-14), He is encouraging them to continue to abide. Just because they are abiding now doesn’t mean that they are guaranteed to abide in the future.

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We agree; but how can there be salvation for them if they do NOT continue to abide?

Practical question was Paul’s salvation guaranteed at this point?

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Assured (conditioned on his faith), but not guaranteed.

1Cor9:27 uses the word "adokimos"; exact word and contextual meaning as 2Cor13:5 --- where Paul warns us to "test ourselves to see if we are in Him, in the Faith; Jesus IS in us, unless we are UNAPPROVED." If a COIN lost the miage written onto it, it became ADOKIMOS-UNAPPROVED...

While you are in 2Cor, I would like to hear what you think about 11:3: "I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." Can we be deceived as Eve was, or not? If we are deceived from "the purity and simplicity of devotion to Christ", are we still saved?

10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Does that mean the Roman believers are physically dead? Does it mean the Roman believers have no desire to sin? No it means sin has no power over them.)

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But whatever understanding taken from this, must accommodate Eph5:5-6: "This you know with certainty, that no immoral man nor impure person nor covetous/idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

5 "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
What does this passage mean? How can someone who commits adultery with his father’s wife and fails to repent, be saved in the day of the Lord? What does it mean to be delivered over to satan for the destruction of ones flesh?

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Operating from the ABSOLUTE that an immoral man WILL not go to Heaven UNLESS HE REPENTS, I find this verse identical to 1Tim1:19-20: Fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have REJECTED and SUFFERED SHIPWRECK in regards to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered over to satan, so that they may be taught not to blaspheme.

The "turning-over-to-satan/destruction-of-flesh" reads much more as a LESSON, that they may be taught not to BLASPHEME --- iow, that they may come to REPENTANCE.

It must be that meaning; otherwise, you would have "someone more immoral than HEATHENS merrily skipping through the gates of Heaven." And you and I know that cannot be true...

If I may comment on your post to Spear Man (appologies if I offend him) --- we are saved not by "faith alone", but by "His grace THROUGH our faith". Saving-faith is identically the same as saving-belief; and only UNBELIEF condemns us Jn3:18. Yet --- not any kind of belief SAVES us; only belief that CAUSES us to "do God's will" (Matt7:21), that CAUSES us to be "humbled as children" (Matt18:3-4), that CAUSES us to be "repentant", and CAUSES us to be "born again". Notice that each of those is written as:
"Unless ______, you won't go to Heaven."

It is the "BORN AGAIN", under which all the others reside. John1:12 speaks of how we become ADOPTED, through the NEW BIRTH (by believing/receiving Jesus); by our own faith. Verse 13 states emphatically, that though the RECEIVING (vs 12) is of us, the BIRTH (vs 13) is NOT of us it is all of HIM.

Receiving the gift changes nothing of the gift; it remains entirely of the GIVER, and none of US...

We agree; but how can there be salvation for them if they do NOT continue to abide?

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Because salvation as you point out “is Not of us it is all of Him” At the moment of salvation John 3:18 tells us: “He who believes in Him is not judged;” at this point one “has passed out of death into life.” John 5:24 I don’t need to rely on works and if I do Im not fully relying on Christ and have not believed the gospel message and will spend eternity in hell as the passage you point out in Matt 7 tells us.

2 Timothy 2:11-13 (NASB95)
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Verse 11 Salvation from Hell: Justification

Verse 12 Rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ: Sanctification this is the consequence of not abiding in I John

Verse 13 I am still saved from hell if I deny him because its all about him and even if I am faithless He will remain faithful and keep the promise of verse 11.

Yet --- not any kind of belief SAVES us; only belief that CAUSES us to "do God's will" (Matt7:21), that CAUSES us to be "humbled as children" (Matt18:3-4), that CAUSES us to be "repentant", and CAUSES us to be "born again". Notice that each of those is written as:
"Unless ______, you won't go to Heaven."

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“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”
(Matthew 7:21-23, NASB95)


Is this passage teaching that one must submit to Christ in order to be saved?

The people who are doing works in this passage are actually going to hell. Many people will claim that the individuals in this passage are making false claims about their works. Christ does not deny their claims instead he replies that He never knew them. It is shocking how fooled these people really are. They sincerely expect the Lord to let them in based upon their works. It’s a rather audacious assumption that anyone who is standing in the presence of the Lord on judgment day would have the nerve to lie to their Creator. The condemned in this passage actually believe that their works were valid and sufficient for entrance into heaven. They deceived themselves into believing they were saved.

Who are the deceived in this passage? Notice that during their lives the performed many works in the name of the Lord. We are not talking about Atheists, Muslims Buddhist, and cult members. This passage is referring to all Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Evangelicals, Mormons, etc who were relying on their works to save them instead of doing the will of the Father.

The main problem with this use of the text is based upon his misinterpretation of doing the will of the Father. Some people would claim that doing the will of the Father requires perfect obedience to all the commands of scripture. This interpretation changes the gospel from absolutely free to inaffordable costly.

As 1 John 1:8 tells us perfect obedience is not possible.

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. "

Other people try to be more practical and lower the standard of obedience. They say that submitting to the Lordship of Christ will result in a minimum amount of good works. If you haven’t performed many works lately you should question your salvation. No where in scripture does it say that I can enter heaven based upon my imperfect works. John Macarthur says that the best example explaining God’s plan of Salvation is the story of the Rich Young Ruler. If surrendering (Macarthur says you have to simply be willing to surrender) all of your possessions and following Christ is necessary for salvation, then Eph 2:8-9 is total fiction. If works are the standard to be used perfection is required. Christ’s sacrifice was sufficient because of His sinless perfection. Nothing is more audacious than the thought of accomplishing something by adding my imperfect efforts to Christ’s finished work on the cross.

By saying the will of the Father includes obedience one changes the gospel from Good news to Bad news. Fortunately, this is all just a false invention of man. The will of the Father is to believe the gospel message.

“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
(John 6:40, NASB95)

"Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” " (John 6:28-29, NASB95)

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. " (Hebrews 11:6, NASB95)

One more observation: notice that Christ says “I never knew you” this means noone in this passage was saved at one time but lost their salvation because they were infants in Christ for too long, did not grow and lost their salvation.

Whenever I think of the consequences of altering the gospel (deceiving the unsaved = condemnation to hell; deceiving believers = replacing eternal security with bondage and a immaturity in the faith) it severely bothers me. The church at large today is actively promoting these consequences by clouding and adding to a gospel message which couldn’t be simpler to understand.

This passage is referring to all Catholics, Presbyterians, Baptists, Evangelicals, Mormons, etc who were relying on their works to save them instead of doing the will of the Father.

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I think this can include those who DO understand that "works don't save". I think this parallels Rev3:14-22, people who THINK they're rich (saved) but have NO IDEA that they are (morally) destitute. The phrase, "I NEVER KNEW YOU" --- can include the concept of ANULLMENT. One who WAS saved but now is NOT, is he who is described in Ezk18:24ff "When a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, ...all his righteous deeds which he has done will be remembered no more, for his treachery which he has mottied and his sin which he has done. For them he will die."

"I never knew you".

By saying the will of the Father includes obedience one changes the gospel from Good news to Bad news. Fortunately, this is all just a false invention of man. The will of the Father is to believe the gospel message.

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Salvation is by grace, through faith; period. Yet salvation cannot exist WITHOUT obedience.
"Jesus our Lord --- thorugh whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring the obecience of faith among the Gentiles..." Rom1:5

"You are slaves ...either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience leading to righteousness. Thanks be to God that though you were slaves to sin, you became obedience FROM THE HEART to that form of teaching ...and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness." Rom6:16-17

Saved-faith leads TO obedience; Eph5:6 says "don't be deceived, God's wrath comes upon the sons of disobedience."

“For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
(John 6:40, NASB95)

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Significant in this verse is the Greek word, "WILL". It is "thelema, DESIRE/WISH". If he had held to PREDESTINATION, he would have used BOULEMA, DECREE...

Can we make a connection between 1Cor1:18, and Rom1:16? YES! 1Cor1:18 and 2:14 have been used to say "regeneration precedes belief"; but I've contended that 1Cor2:12 says "the RECEIVED Spirit gives us spiritual understanding, and the Spirit is received THROUGH BELIEF.

1Cor1:18 says "the word of the Cross is foolishness to the perishing, but power of God to us-being-saved". Rom1:16 says "I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone WHO BELIEVES." Perfect harmony --- it is BELIEF that changes the Gospel from seeming FOLLY, to being POWER.

If works are the standard to be used perfection is required.

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And yet, perfection IS required. "Therefore you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt5:48

And you agree with me, that perfection is IMPOSSIBLE from us; we are perfect through Jesus-IN-us. His perfection becomes ours, through His indwelling of us...

And yet, perfection IS required. "Therefore you are to be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt5:48

And you agree with me, that perfection is IMPOSSIBLE from us; we are perfect through Jesus-IN-us. His perfection becomes ours, through His indwelling of us...

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I am not perfect. According to your reasoning I must conclude that I am not saved. Because if I was being indwelled His perfection would become mine.

How can the command in Matt 5:48 possible be followed in light of I John 1:8?

Martin Luther commenting on Romans said:

“How can anybody prepare himself for good by means of works if he does no good work except with aversion and constraint in his heart? How can such a work please God, if it proceeds from an averse and unwilling heart?

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Luther said:

"Therefore in chapter 2, St. Paul adds that the Jews are all
sinners and says that only the doers of the law are justified in
the sight of God. What he is saying is that no one is a doer of
the law by works. On the contrary, he says to them, "You teach
that one should not commit adultery, and you commit adultery.
You judge another in a certain matter and condemn yourselves in that
same matter, because you do the very same thing that you judged in
another." It is as if he were saying, "Outwardly you live quite
properly in the works of the law and judge those who do not live
the same way; you know how to teach everybody. You see the speck
in another's eye but do not notice the beam in your own."

Outwardly you keep the law with works out of fear of punishment or
love of gain. Likewise you do everything without free desire and
love of the law; you act out of aversion and force. You'd rather
act otherwise if the law didn't exist. It follows, then, that you,
in the depths of your heart, are an enemy of the law. What do you
mean, therefore, by teaching another not to steal, when you, in
the depths of your heart, are a thief and would be one outwardly
too, if you dared. (Of course, outward work doesn't last long with
such hypocrites.) So then, you teach others but not yourself; you
don't even know what you are teaching. You've never understood the
law rightly. Furthermore, the law increases sin, as St. Paul says
in chapter 5. That is because a person becomes more and more an
enemy of the law the more it demands of him what he can't possibly
do.”

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Simple obedience is not enought to please God. God not only commands us to refrain from sin, but to hate sin as He hates it. As Luther later points out the Law is spiritual one cannot come to hate sin as God hates it unless they are in fellowship.

I am not perfect. According to your reasoning I must conclude that I am not saved. Because if I was being indwelled His perfection would become mine.

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No, "my reasoning" mirrors yours; we are NOT perfect, we cannot be perfect; our perfection is His-in-us. Perfection cannot be obtained by our own efforts; it must be received through grace...

How can the command in Matt 5:48 possible be followed in light of I John 1:8?

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Very good question. Because it reflects that "walking in Him, submitting to His Lordship", is a daily thing. Contrast 1Jn3:6 ("no one who abides in Him sins"), and 1Jn3:9 ("no one born of God practices sin, becaus His seed abides in him; and he CANNOT sin because he is born of God.") --- with that verse you just quoted from 1Jn1:8; contradiction? No. It's simply reflecting the truth that we walk in Him (IE in the Spirit), and not in the flesh, DAILY.

"As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him." Col2:6

That a "daily commitment" is reflected in salvation, is clear in verses like Rom8:12ff: "Therefore, we are under OBLIGATION --- not to walk after the flesh (if you do, you will die!) --- but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the things of the flesh, you will live."

And this stands against the idea that "God will persevere/endure us". Faith is from our own hearts, perseverance is from our own hearts also. Peter admonishes us to "be diligent to make all the more certain of your calling and election ...that the gates of Heaven be abundantly provided to you". 2:1:5-11

So we can return to John10:28, and ask: "Does it say we cannot ever leave"? Or does it say "no one can FORCE us to leave (but not denying we can unbelieve-and-leave ourselves)"? Which understanding fits the rest of Scripture?

Colossians 2:6 (NASB95)
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

Matthew 10:22 (NASB95)
22 “You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Luke 9:23 (NASB95)
23 And He was saying to them all, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

1 John 1:9 (NASB95)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Matthew 5:48 (NASB95)
48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

2 Timothy 2:12a (NASB95)
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

Revelation 2:17b(NASB95) “To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.”

I assume that you will agree with me that the passages above require some action from the party that they are addressed to?

Action is work there is no way around that argument. Romans 4:5 and 11:6 make it clear that justification is conditioned on faith apart from works. If faith naturally “causes us to do God’s will” why are any of these verses needed since good behavior will result automatically in the live of the believer?

Some might argue that it is to encourage us to continue believing lest we lose our salvation. If the works have nothing to do with me (are caused by my faith) and are the results of my faith how can I be responsible for their failure? If I am responsible Gods not doing it, I am; it is a work.

Another possibility we are left with is that true faith always results in good works, false faith results in insufficient works. (Calvinism) Ie If I fall I was never saved to start with. We dismissed this possibility we we discussed the babes in Christ in 1 Cor 3:2 and the immoral man in 5:6 who may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

We are left with two options Salvation = Faith alone
or Salvation = Faith and Works


1 Corinthians 9:27 (NASB95)
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Would you argue that Paul is worried about losing his salvation? He was definitely saved when he wrote these words being as they are inspired by God. If Paul stopped abiding in Him which I think we both agree is possible do you actually think Paul would be in hell right now?

NWM said:

Action is work there is no way around that argument. Romans 4:5 and 11:6 make it clear that justification is conditioned on faith apart from works. If faith naturally “causes us to do God’s will” why are any of these verses needed since good behavior will result automatically in the live of the believer?

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As we have discussed, Philip2:12-13 applies here. It says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling". Salvation is by WORKS? No. It says, "work out the salvation that you HAVE." Verse 13 makes it plain and clear: "for it is GOD who is at work in you, both to will and to work according to His good purpose." Working out our salvation is nothing more (nor less) than abiding in Him, that HE works THROUGH US.

Another possibility we are left with is that true faith always results in good works, false faith results in insufficient works. (Calvinism)

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That's not limited to Calvinism; Jesus said it, Matt7:18...

Ie If I fall I was never saved to start with. We dismissed this possibility we we discussed the babes in Christ in 1 Cor 3:2 and the immoral man in 5:6 who may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

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What about all of those in Scripture, who WERE saved but FELL? The Galatians are a prime example; they were "begun in the Spirit" (3:3), they were "obeying the truth", they were "running well"; but now they are "hindered", "bewitched", "subject again to a yoke of slavery" (works, rather than grace 5:1); verse 5:4 says "you are FALLEN from grace, you are SEVERED from Christ."

Never saved? Obeying-the-truth, running-well, begun-in-the-Spirit?
Didn't fall? "Fallen-from-grace, severed-from-Christ"?

And those in James 5:19-20; "brethren, if any of you..." How could he be talking to the NEVER-SAVED?

"Wanders from the truth..." Strays, but doesn't fall?

"And another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way..." Is there such a thing as a SINNER, IN the error of his way? No!

"...and saved a soul from death". So the BRETHREN, were truly in danger of DEATH. Physical only, not spiritual? Do you really think a "sinner in the error of his way" is SAVED? "Thanatos", death and Hell.

What about Hymenaeus and Alexander? They "suffered shipwreck of their faith" (1Tim1:19-20) --- how can they "suffer shipwreck", if they've never been ON the FAITH-SHIP in the first place? Hymenaeus and Philetus "have gone astray from the truth". GONE astray? They could not have GONE astray, if they had always BEEN astray, could they?

Would you argue that Paul is worried about losing his salvation? He was definitely saved when he wrote these words being as they are inspired by God. If Paul stopped abiding in Him which I think we both agree is possible do you actually think Paul would be in hell right now?

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I don't think Paul actually risked his salvation; but it's clear he considered it POSSIBLE. "Adokimos" is used also in 2Cor13:5. Look at 2Cor11:3; does Paul worry about OUR salvation? Yes! 1Cor10:12: "Let him who thinks he stand take heed, lest he fall". What does "fall" mean? The following verse deals with TEMPTATION. Now, James wrote of temptation, in 1:14-16; warning "beloved brethren" that "lust births sin brings DEATH"; thanatos-death, NWM; physical-death with implication of Hell.

Did James and Paul believe different things? No.

Unless we are willing to say "a sinful/immoral/unregenerate/unrepentant man can BE saved", we must discard the idea of "backslidden-but-saved"; and recognize that "backsliding is POSSIBLE, and if we DO continue sinning willfully (backslidden), there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries." Heb10:26ff...

Bulldog said:

I am curious as to how this verse is reconciled witht the position that salvation can be lost.

"None" doesn't leave much of an opening does it?

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We can't be snatched away, however, that does not prohibit us from using our free will to walk off the palm of God's hand.

Main Entry: 1snatch
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English snacchen to give a sudden snap, seize; akin to Middle Dutch snacken to snap at
intransitive senses : to attempt to seize something suddenly
transitive senses : to take or grasp abruptly or hastily; also : to seize or grab suddenly without permission, ceremony, or right

Webster's

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God Bless,
Diane