Do You Eat Pork?

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The Thadman

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daveleau said:
:) So, you are saying that Jesus was wrong? He says nothing that enters the mouth defiles you. He does not say "food eaten with unclean hands". He says NOTHING. Sin is defined int he Torah, to an extent. About 90% of the OT is useful to us today. Those sins that Jesus releases us from are not sins after we are washed by the Blood. Matthew 15:11 is a direct quote from Jesus Christ and is a release from the Levitical law on pork or any law in the Pentateuch (or the OT for that matter) on food.

Additionally, if you follow part of the Torah, you're a debtor to the whole thing.

Do you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul? And do you love your neighbor as yourself?

You're following Leviticus 19:18 and Deuteronomy 6:5, period. :)

Jesus taught nothing new, only that which was cast aside for the sake of the doctrines of men.

Peace!,
-Steve-o
 
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daveleau

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Jesus taught the Truth. Both the OT and NT are truth. The OT is truth that pertained to the Jews and part (most) of it pertained after Jesus came. Jesus changed everything. We are no longer bound to the Law for Salvation. Salvation is by Grace, which was not available before Jesus. It was by the Law only. Jesus left most of the Law intact, as it was not all Jew-specific. There were certain things that changed from the time that the OT was written and Jesus' arrival. You must look to the teachings of Jesus to see what pertains still. If Jesus directly speaks about an OT law, and says it no longer holds true, then it can be removed from practice. Abstaining from certain foods is directly mentioned by Jesus in the verse I quoted, so it no longer applies. It is not a sin to uphold this law now, but it should be understood by those who uphold the law in question that it is no longer necessary.

1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

What this verse talks about pertains to things other than meat. If you do something which you know to be acceptable in the eyes of God, then do it. But, if another is weaker in his knowledge of God's Word and the person finds offense by this same act, then do not do it in his presence or you will cause his faith to diminish, or your example to be diminshed. So, do not do this thing in their presence.

So, long story short, I would never eat pork in the presence of someone who things it is wrong to eat pork, even though Scripture is blatant in its direction that nothing you eat corrupts you.

As for burnt offerings, you're kidding, right? You don't still slaughter animals and offer them up to God on an alter.
 
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The Thadman

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daveleau said:
Jesus taught the Truth. Both the OT and NT are truth. The OT is truth that pertained to the Jews and part (most) of it pertained after Jesus came.

Jesus taught the truth, alright, and that truth was all from Torah.

Jesus changed everything.

Jesus taught nothing new, not a word of what he taught came from anywhere else but the Tanakh.

We are no longer bound to the Law for Salvation. Salvation is by Grace, which was not available before Jesus. It was by the Law only.

No one has ever gained salvation by the works of the Law, from Adam to us. What are you talking about? :)

Jesus left most of the Law intact, as it was not all Jew-specific. There were certain things that changed from the time that the OT was written and Jesus' arrival. You must look to the teachings of Jesus to see what pertains still.

Jesus taught the whole Torah. He fulfilled it. He challenged people in their interpretations.

If Jesus directly speaks about an OT law, and says it no longer holds true, then it can be removed from practice. Abstaining from certain foods is directly mentioned by Jesus in the verse I quoted, so it no longer applies.

It never happened Dave :) Jesus didn't abolish anything, he said as much. That means that the entire Torah is still intact. You can't just pick and choose which parts of Torah that you follow because "that part doesn't apply to me."

Isaiah 56:3 Neither let the foreigner, who has joined himself to YHWH, ((That's us, my friend!)) speak, saying, YHWH will surely separate me from his people!; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

It is not a sin to uphold this law now, but it should be understood by those who uphold the law in question that it is no longer necessary.

Nothing in the Torah is no longer necessary. Jesus taught the entire, fulfilled, Law. Nothing less.

1Co 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
1Co 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
1Co 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

What this verse talks about pertains to things other than meat. If you do something which you know to be acceptable in the eyes of God, then do it. But, if another is weaker in his knowledge of God's Word and the person finds offense by this same act, then do not do it in his presence or you will cause his faith to diminish, or your example to be diminshed. So, do not do this thing in their presence.

Paul did not teach relativism, he taught against the Oral Law. Why do you think he made a big deal about "one day being holier than other"? The Pharisees, Saducees, and Essenes celebrated Biblical holidays on different days and for different lengths of time, which was a LARGE point of debate. Saducees observed Passover a day earlier than the Pharisees and for one day, where the Pharisees observed it a day later than the Saducees and celebrated it for two days.

So, long story short, I would never eat pork in the presence of someone who things it is wrong to eat pork, even though Scripture is blatant in its direction that nothing you eat corrupts you.

Nothing you can eat can corrupt you! :) I've already talked about this. I repeat: There is NOTHING in the Torah that you can eat that will make you ritually unclean. The example that Jesus was working from was bread with unwashed hands: YADAYIM, a Jewish oral tradition, not Torah.

If you plan to bring this up again, find me one verse in the entire Old Testament that says that you are ritually unclean by not washing your hands before you eat. Or how about this: find me one verse in the entire Old Testament that says that you're a moral sinner if you are ritually unclean.

Ritual uncleanliness was a state of being, where one was not able to take place in Temple ceremonies, nothing more, nothing less. Every time you touch an unclean animal, have sex with your wife, or when your wife has her period, you were not permitted to worship in the Temple until you met the requirements to change that state. The Pharisees made no distinction between that and being a moral sinner, i.e. if you were ritually unclean, you were a sinner in their eyes (which in this specific case meant that if you didn't observe YADAYIM, washing your hands before you ate, then you were sinning).

As for burnt offerings, you're kidding, right? You don't still slaughter animals and offer them up to God on an alter.

What did I say, Dave? :) I was very plain.


In closing, the words of YHWH still stand, yesterday, today and forever:

Leviticus 11
7 The pig, because he has a split hoof, and is cloven-footed, but doesn’t chew the cud, he is unclean to you.
8 Of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch; they are unclean to you.

And the words of Jesus are truth:

Matthew 5
19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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Jaywalk

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Good heavens. All these posts and I didn't see the one passage that matters. I did see this bit:
Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."
But what on earth happened to the next half of the verse:
(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
If Jesus himself declared all foods -- and that's all foods -- clean, then what's left to argue about?
 
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The Thadman

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Jaywalk said:
Good heavens. All these posts and I didn't see the one passage that matters. I did see this bit:

And what did I say? I repeat AGAIN: There is nothing under OT Law that you can eat that will make you ritually unclean.

This was about YADAYIM, the washing of hands, not about eating pork or squid.

But what on earth happened to the next half of the verse:

If Jesus himself declared all foods -- and that's all foods -- clean, then what's left to argue about?

That's a parenthesis: The author's commentary, not the words of Jesus m'friend. ;)

If I were to say, "There's nothing you can do that I will not forgive you for, thus he is your friend," you'd probably look at me funny. Wouldn't I say "thus I am your friend?"

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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phantasma

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How about Romans 14:

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22 The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23 But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

It main purpose of this section is not to tell us what foods are unclean or not, but it does say that all food is clean to eat.

Also, didn't God originally declare some foods unclean to protect his people as some types of meat are dangerous if you don't cook them properly?
 
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The Thadman

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phantasma said:
How about Romans 14:
It main purpose of this section is not to tell us what foods are unclean or not, but it does say that all food is clean to eat.

First, you said it yourself. All "food" is clean to eat. Pork was never "food" to a Jew. If I said that "All food is clean to eat," do I expect you to eat a raw spiney blowfish? Many animals consider that food. Very few humans do, and when they do it must be cooked very carefully otherwise it is (1) not food, and (2) fatal. When a Jew of Jews, such as Paul (raised under the tutelage of Rabbi Gamaliel in Tarsus) refers to food, he (for not one instant) would be referring to pork, rabbit, camel, shellfish, or raptors.

Second, note Paul's opening statement:

4 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

Within the context of Jesus' debate over Yadayim, this was the argument. The Rabbinate was arbitrarily declaring things "clean" against God's word, and things "unclean" which God gave no commandment on (such as bread, kosher and clean bread, that is eaten with unwashed hands). There's even a little vignette about this sort of debate in the Talmud on one Eliezer Ben Hyrcanus. If you read any of this, please read sections 2 and 3. Section 1 gives the backstory:

1

On that fateful morning, Rabbi Eliezer and his disciple Rabbi Akiva were seen walking together to the Academy of Yavneh. The time was a few years before the Bar Kochba rebellion (approximately 132 - 134 CE). Oblivious to all about them, they were locked in an intense debate. "Master", said Rabbi Akiva, "the issue has been clearly defined. You believe, as does the owner of the oven, that since the oven of Akhnai is made of pieces that have been joined together, it is considered to be built of broken fragments. The law is that broken utensils cannot contract ritual impurity. Therefore the oven is ritually pure. Unfortunately, the other sages do not agree with your interpretation. They point out that the original oven had become contaminated. The owner cut it into tiles and reassembled the tiles with sand between them. He then plastered the reassembled oven over with cement so that it again could be used as a stove. They believe that since the intent of the owner was to make it into a whole vessel, its ritual impurity persists."

"Akiva, you have stated the problem well, but what is the answer? My colleagues have not understood the underlying concepts and have misinterpreted the law. It is my job to correct their erroneous way of thinking."

"Master, the debate between you and all the other sages has persisted so long without resolution that it has generated considerable anger and frustration. A number of us fear that this partisan zealotry will split the Academy and result in harm to yourself, the Academy and possibly the whole Jewish community. It is not unusual for the sages to hold differing views, and then the matter is decided in favor of the opinion of the majority. Why not follow that principle?

The older man slowly shook his head back and forth, "No, the truth must be sought, and when found, followed. It is my duty to convince the others of the error of their thinking." When they reached the Academy, Rabbi Eliezer went directly in to take his appointed place, while his disciple turned to join several colleagues standing near the entrance.

Rabbi Tarfon had been expressing his concern over the increasing intensity of the debate concerning the oven of Akhnai. "Rabbi Eliezer is increasingly obdurate and stiff-necked in holding to his opinion in the face of opposition by nearly all of the Sages. I fear that our Nasi (Head of the Sanhedrin), Rabban Gamliel, will not easily accept such strong opposition to his leadership. Yehoshua, you felt the sting of Rabban Gamliel's displeasure on more than one occasion. What do you think?"

"It was more than a sting that I felt. I was the only one to disagree with Rabban Gamliel on the matter of whether evening prayer was optional or mandatory. In the end I changed my opinion and agreed with him. Nevertheless, he proceeded to publicly humiliate me by forcing me to stand throughout the remainder of the session. What will he do to a man like Rabbi Eliezer who has continued to express such forceful opposition to the majority? Although I strongly disagree with Rabbi Eliezer's arguments in the matter of the oven, I feel sorry for him. You have been speaking with him, Akiva, do you think he will change his mind and accept the opinion of the majority?"

"I did try to influence him to do so, but I was not successful. His teacher, Rabban Yochanan, described his astounding memory as `a cemented cistern which loses not a drop (of stored knowledge).' It also stores emotional memories. Under stress cement will not bend or yield to accommodate outside forces. I do not know what he will say this morning, but I too fear for him."

2

"I have more to say." When the members of the Sanhedrin had gathered that morning, Rabban Gamliel the Nasi rose and started to speak. "We have now heard the arguments concerning the ritual purity or impurity of the oven of Akhnai, and now it is time..."

"One moment sir, I have not yet completed my arguments." It was Rabbi Eliezer. Rabban Gamliel turned and imperiously looked from one side of the Assembly to the other, and then looked directly at Eliezer, "Is it absolutely necessary for you to further prolong this discussion?"

"So be it. Proceed."

Rabbi Eliezer stood alone before the Assembly. He spoke slowly but in a loud clear voice. "I know that you have not accepted the logic of my arguments. I now ask if the halacha is in accordance with me, let this carob tree prove it!" The carob tree immediately uprooted itself and moved one hundred cubits, and some say 400 cubits, from its original place. Voices from the Sages of the Assembly were heard crying out, "Proof cannot be brought from a carob tree."

Rabbi Eliezer then said, "If the halacha is in accordance with me, let the stream of water prove it." The stream of water immediately flowed backward, against the direction in which it usually flowed. The Sages responded, "Proof cannot be brought from a stream of water either."

Rabbi Eliezer then said, "If the halacha is in accordance with me, let the walls of the House of Study prove it." The walls of the House of Study then leaned and were about to fall. Rabbi Yehoshua, who was one of Rabbi Eliezer's chief opponents, rebuked them, saying,” If Talmudic scholars are engaged in a halachic dispute, what right have you to interfere?" The walls did not fall down, out of respect for Rabbi Yehoshua, nor did they straighten, out of respect for Rabbi Eliezer. Indeed, they remain leaning to this day.

Rabbi Eliezer then said to the Sages, "If the halacha is in accordance with me, let it be proved directly from Heaven." Whereupon a Heavenly Voice cried out, "Why do you dispute with Rabbi Eliezer, seeing that in all matters the halacha agrees with him!" Rabbi Yehoshua immediately rose and, quoting from Deuteronomy, said, "The Torah is not in heaven!" Rabbi Jeremiah explained, "The Torah has already been given at Mount Sinai; we pay no attention to a Heavenly Voice, because You have written in the Torah at Mount Sinai, `After the majority must one incline'."

A long period of silence followed. Rabbi Eliezer, with head erect, looked over the entire assembly of Sages as though to acknowledge that he had heard their decision. Then he turned and left the Assembly.

The Sages then brought in all the objects that had been placed within the Oven of Akhnai and that Rabbi Eliezer had declared clean. The Assembly pronounced them unclean and burned them.

3

Rabbi Eliezer, lost in thought, slowly and quietly opened the door to his home, walked into the dining room and sat down at the table without saying a word to his wife who was in the kitchen. He placed his elbow on the table and sighed as he rested his head on his hand. His wife, Imma Shalom, entered the room and sat down on the other side of the table. After a few minutes of silence, she asked him in a soft voice, "How did things go this morning?" "Not good," he replied wearily, and then he briefly summarized the events of the morning for her. Imma Shalom remained silent for a short while carefully considering what she had heard. She then said, "The sages directly disagreed with the Heavenly Voice. I wonder what G-d must think." Rabbi Eliezer raised his head and looked at her. "We now know what G-d does think. On my way home, I passed Rabbi Nathan. He stopped me and told me he had met Elijah, the Prophet. He had asked him, "What did the Holy One do when the Sages challenged the Heavenly Voice?" Elijah replied, "The Holy One laughed with joy, saying, `My sons have defeated me! My sons have defeated me!"

First, for those who may be confused, "Rabbi Yehoshua" is not Jesus, he's another Yehoshua (Yehoshua and Yeshua were popular names back then).

Second, the law that they talk of, however, is the oral law, not Torah as there is no such ruling in all of the 5 books of Moses, but it illustrates a point: Arbitrary, not Biblical uncleanliness was the issue of the timeperiod that Jesus and Paul taught against, not whether or not God said "Don't eat pork." Pork and other animals, as you will note, declared unclean by the Torah were never an issue. Peter, himself, who was there when Jesus explained his debate with the Pharisees over washing their hands later went on to refuse unclean animals in his vision. The vision was not about eating unclean animals, but accepting the Gentiles (who where arbitrarily declared unclean by the Rabbinate, but never declared so by God). :)

Paul, here, is speaking of this very same issue. For those who have a stricter diet (i.e. don't think something's kosher if it was not slaughtered by a Rabbi, or one who will not eat milk and meat together, things far BEYOND the Torah) don't rib them for it. Just make sure they're on the right track. The same thing with the Gentiles who were told to keep 4 simple things and add to them more from the Torah each week on the Sabbath. I can tell you that if pork became an issue we'd see Jewish writings raising HELL over it.

Also, didn't God originally declare some foods unclean to protect his people as some types of meat are dangerous if you don't cook them properly?

No one's 100% sure that's the case, but there are wonderful health benefits for eating Biblically kosher. Pork has the highest infection percentage of any meat (nearly 100%), it also has the highest intercellular fat content and histamine count of modern food animals. Shellfish are obscenely high in heavy metals such as mercury, and many people have allergic reactions to them. Even if one does cook these foods properly, they still pose a health risk.

You'll also notice that clean and unclean animals were understood as such before the Torah was given to Moses. ;)

Peace!
-Steve-o
 
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zoom1973

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Peter said:
Argue as you want. But I eat pork. The Church, the body of Jesus Christ, has always allowed it.

Peace.

Peter

The thing is that most Christians think that there was a separate understanding of food given to the Jews and another to the Gentiles. Fact of the matter is that before there was ever a Jew, God had already made a distinction between clean and unclean. Looks in Genesis.

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

Noah (he was not a Jew) knew about the separation between clean and unclean. Most people think that only two of each animal was taken. That is not the complete truth. Seven (or seven pairs) of the clean animals were taken aboard the Ark. Only two of the unclean went. Common sense tells you that if you only have two chickens, one male and one female, and you eat one then you run the risk of making the chicken extinct.
 
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The Thadman

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zoom1973 said:
The thing is that most Christians think that there was a separate understanding of food given to the Jews and another to the Gentiles. Fact of the matter is that before there was ever a Jew, God had already made a distinction between clean and unclean. Looks in Genesis.

Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.

Noah (he was not a Jew) knew about the separation between clean and unclean. Most people think that only two of each animal was taken. That is not the complete truth. Seven (or seven pairs) of the clean animals were taken aboard the Ark. Only two of the unclean went. Common sense tells you that if you only have two chickens, one male and one female, and you eat one then you run the risk of making the chicken extinct.

:clap: Wonderful point!

Peace,
-Steve-o
 
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Wreck n Sow

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ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.[17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD

THE DAY OF THE LORD! No more figurin or cipherin!
 
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Symes

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Lady_Firehawk said:
Soooo... uhhh, does this mean we should all stop eating pork and shellfish and obey kosher laws? :confused:
Just for your own healths sake it is better not to eat them. The Bible says not to eat them but if one does not want to follow God's Word then do it for your health.
 
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Shay2005

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billwald said:
Health issues - Christians are said to be people who continually talk about Heaven but fight like hell to keep from going there.

Health issues 2 - No sickness in Heaven so it doesn't matter what we eat. Am loooking forward to fried oyster sandwiches.
I would assume we would be eating what Adam and Eve ate in the Garden of Eden since that was our "original" diet before the Flood:)
 
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Symes

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billwald said:
Health issues - Christians are said to be people who continually talk about Heaven but fight like hell to keep from going there.

Health issues 2 - No sickness in Heaven so it doesn't matter what we eat. Am loooking forward to fried oyster sandwiches.

Who said they fight like hell to stop going there?

True no sickness in heaven but if we dis-obey God's commands we will not be going anyway.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments"
 
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