Predestination/"Free Will"

rnmomof7 · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 02:57 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #380

mom,

OK, but we still have the choice to follow Him or not right? Because the more we talk, the more I realize that we probably agree on most all or all things.

Let me ask you this Aaron on the day you were saved..as the truth of the gospel became real to you..did you think "now wait a minute...Let me see here..."
Or at THAT very moment did you desire God above all things?

I attended a local RC church but in truth I was an agnostic moving toward being an athesist..I went to church so the kids would have an ethical base.

But at that moment. I only wanted Christ I had no other thoughts.

I am not talking about the years of hearing the gospel before the moment of Gods grace..I am only speaking of the foreordained moment for your heart transplant.

Without that new heart men do not want God. They may go to church , Geee they could even be a preacher....but they like the god they have made up in thier mind..not the God of the bible.

But something happens..a change ...a new heart one made of flesh that runs into the arms of Christ.

All men make a choice aaron..but without that new heart men will not choose Christ .They will choose whatever they prefer ...

rnmomof7 · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 02:57 PM Aaron11 said this in Post #380

I just wanted the word of God to speak to you on this..think about it aaron

_
_ Jhn 10:25__ Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
__
_ Jhn 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
__
_ Jhn 10:27__ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
__
_ Jhn 10:28__ And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
__
_ Jhn 10:29__ My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

bird · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 04:45 PM rnmomof7 said this in Post #379

Arron the only man that had a truely free will was Adam...that will was pure and innocent.
After the fall the wills of men were no longer really free they became slaves to sin.( their wills are in bondage)

Slaves always do what their masters tell them to. Men will serve sin , that is what they want to do, that is what the will to do.

It is not untill the will of man is changed by the grace of God that he will chose Christ.

Remember Jesus said you had to be BORN AGAIN to see the Kingdom of God? That is because men are so bound in sin they can not desire God untill they get that new heart.

You can not desire what you do not see or hear.

They do what they desire to do..but because of Adam what they will is to rebel and sin.

slaves always do what their masters tell them because of fear of punishment, not because they necessarily "want" to....a slave is not "free" to exercise his own choice.  he fears punishment...therefore his behaviour is coerced, conditioned.

 

 

 

"for as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them wo through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."  (heb. 2:14-15)

 

bird

bird · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 03:23 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #370

You undersestimate the enormity of sin. We Calvinists understand that man is Totally depraved as a result of the fall. The unregenerate sinner does not want to love God, does not want to worship Him. That is why we so desperately need God's mercy.

However, I get the impression that you believe that we Calvinists don't believe God when He says that anyone who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. We affirm that anyone who repents of their sin and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Yet, we know enough about the nature of fallen man to realize that he will never choose Christ on his own, so damaged (dead) is his spiritual ability. That is why he needs to be born again.

 

"blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again (caused us to be born again) unto a lively hope by the resurrection of jesus christ from the dead"  I peter 1:3

 

bird

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Bird,

If you are going to quote I Peter 1:3, don't you think that it would be important to understand its context?

Who is Peter speaking to? The world at large, or Christians in particular?

There certainly isn't anything of comfort in I Peter to those who are spoken of in chapter 2, verse 8, the ones who were "appointed" to stumble and disobey.

You cannot take the promises of I Peter (or the bulk of the Bible for that matter), and apply them to the world at large.

rnmomof7 · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 06:19 PM bird said this in Post #383

slaves always do what their masters tell them because of fear of punishment, not because they necessarily "want" to....a slave is not "free" to exercise his own choice.  he fears punishment...therefore his behaviour is coerced, conditioned.

 

Exactly the point bird. Man is a slave to sin..he has no other choice. Even when he thinks he is choosing good he is sinning.

 

 

"for as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them wo through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."  (heb. 2:14-15)

 

bird

Click to expand...

That is exacly what Jesus does for the saved..

Aaron11 · Apr 17, 2003

mom,

thank you for the explanation. i now see more clearly your point. i do not totally agree on everything, but now i at least understand where you are coming from.

bird · Apr 17, 2003

Yesterday at 03:23 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #370

You undersestimate the enormity of sin. We Calvinists understand that man is Totally depraved as a result of the fall. The unregenerate sinner does not want to love God, does not want to worship Him. That is why we so desperately need God's mercy.

However, I get the impression that you believe that we Calvinists don't believe God when He says that anyone who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. We affirm that anyone who repents of their sin and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Yet, we know enough about the nature of fallen man to realize that he will never choose Christ on his own, so damaged (dead) is his spiritual ability. That is why he needs to be born again.

i understand "total depravity" more in the sense of "total inability" to save ourselves, or to effect our own salvation...not in the sense of "wickedness" or "evil" in the sense that it is commonly understood today when that term is bandied about.

 

bird

Jerry_M · Apr 17, 2003

Today at 07:04 PM bird said this in Post #388

i understand "total depravity" more in the sense of "total inability" to save ourselves, or to effect our own salvation...not in the sense of "wickedness" or "evil" in the sense that it is commonly understood today when that term is bandied about.

 

bird

That is exactly what I mean about "total depravity", that a person is totally unable to respond positively to God.

No one is "wholly depraved", after all, Hitler probably loved his mama. I don't believe that any person who has ever lived is as evil or wicked as he possibly could be. Yet, all are "totally depraved" in that they cannot please God. All of our so-called righteousness is like filthy, bloody, menstrual rags. (Don't laugh or cringe, that is exactly what Isaiah says.) What do you expect from people who are "dead in trespasses and sins"?

CCWoody · Apr 19, 2003

Ok, caught up here too after a little hunting trip. If anybody wants me specifically to address something, even though Mom, Jerry, and fru have been giving excellent answers, then let me know.

I'd hate for anybody to feel like I'm snubbing them....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Ragman · Apr 20, 2003

17th April 2003 at 05:33 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #385

Bird,

If you are going to quote I Peter 1:3, don't you think that it would be important to understand its context?

Who is Peter speaking to? The world at large, or Christians in particular?

There certainly isn't anything of comfort in I Peter to those who are spoken of in chapter 2, verse 8, the ones who were "appointed" to stumble and disobey.

You cannot take the promises of I Peter (or the bulk of the Bible for that matter), and apply them to the world at large.

Jerry:

Of course you can.  God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself not counting men's sins against them.  Because someone stumbles or rejects Christ at one or many points in their life does not mean that they are eternally lost.  God loves the world.

Ragman · Apr 20, 2003

17th April 2003 at 10:25 AM Jerry_M said this in Post #377

You have a problem here, I believe, and it is not with us.

Do you believe that men need to repent of their sins and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to have "fellowship in heaven"?

If so, then how about the countless millions who have lived and died in nations and during centuries in which there was no Christian witness? Do you think that people living in China in the 1st through 17th centuries ever heard the name of Jesus? How about the Aztecs and Mayas prior to Spanish conquest? How about the millions today who have no viable Christian witness in their lands?

Just the fact that God chose the Gospel as the mechanism to bring about salvation limits those with a "chance at fellowship in heaven". Those who never hear never get a "chance".

No, I would much rather belief the Biblical witness that God saves all those who are His, and ordains both the means and the results after the counsel of His will, rather than believe the salvation is a matter of "chance". He saves all those who are His, and none of those who belong to Him will perish.

Jerry:

Do you ever wish that God wanted to and ordained everyone to salvation and actually would pull it off?

Jerry_M · Apr 20, 2003

Today at 06:50 AM Ragman said this in Post #392

Jerry:

Do you ever wish that God wanted to and ordained everyone to salvation and actually would pull it off?

It doesn't much matter what I "wish" now, does it?

Do you believe that Peter was being truthful when he stated that Jesus is the precious corner stone to those who belong to God, but...a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed(I Peter 2:8) to those who are outside of the grace of God? (In other words, do you believe that Peter thought that everyone was "ordained to salvation" and that God would "actually pull it off" in saving everyone?)

How about you? Do you believe that all are "ordained to salvation" and that God will "actually pull it off" isn saving everyone? If so, then pray explain His agency in "pulling it off", and then tell us how this doesn't invalidate the Gospel?

Ragman · Apr 20, 2003

Today at 07:39 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #393

It doesn't much matter what I "wish" now, does it?

Do you believe that Peter was being truthful when he stated that Jesus is the precious corner stone to those who belong to God, but...a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed(I Peter 2:8) to those who are outside of the grace of God? (In other words, do you believe that Peter thought that everyone was "ordained to salvation" and that God would "actually pull it off" in saving everyone?)

How about you? Do you believe that all are "ordained to salvation" and that God will "actually pull it off" isn saving everyone? If so, then pray explain His agency in "pulling it off", and then tell us how this doesn't invalidate the Gospel?

Jerry:

You first, do you ever wish that God wanted to save everyone and that He might just pull it off?

CCWoody · Apr 21, 2003

Ragman,

Will there be any people who will burn forever in the Lake of Fire or at some point with all those in Hell be reconciled to God and spend eternity with Him?

If there are some people who will spend forever in the Lake of Fire, who exactly are these people?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Jerry_M · Apr 21, 2003

Yesterday at 08:09 PM Ragman said this in Post #394

Jerry:

You first, do you ever wish that God wanted to save everyone and that He might just pull it off?

I thought that I had answered your question when I stated that it doesn't much matter what I wish, does it?

However, if you truly want an answer, that answer would be no. Why? Simply because the testimony of God's Word is that there are, and will be, those who will enter everlasting punishment. Thus, to "wish" that this not be the case would be in contradiction with His desire that my will be in conformity to His. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished (II Peter 2:9, quoting Job 21:30)

Your turn: Are you, in reality, a Universalist who believes that all mankind will be redeemed, and feel it necessary to dictate to God what He can and cannot do with His created dirt?

CCWoody · Apr 21, 2003

Today at 10:41 PM Jerry_M said this in Post #396

Your turn: Are you, in reality, a Universalist who believes that all mankind will be redeemed, and feel it necessary to dictate to God what He can and cannot do with His created dirt?

I find it interesting that every single one of us Calvinists who have had dealing with Ragman have come to this question. I believe that Ragman is being disingenuous with us and intentionally attempting to hide his true doctrine from us. As a result, I began to ignore him when he ignored my repeated requests for him to address Romans 6:3-5.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

MizDoulos · Apr 22, 2003

Note to all:&nbsp&nbspEven though there are differing viewpoints of the Bible, please strive to respect the opinions of others. Furthermore, any personal remarks should be sent to that particular member either through e-mail or the private message option in the profile page. If not, arguments and disharmony may result.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[noflame][/noflame]

Jerry_M · Apr 22, 2003

MizDoulos,

For the benefit of us newcomers, please point out a specific instance from this thread of the bahavior towards which your warning was directed.

I haven't seen any personal attacks yet, but would find it helpful to know what you construe these to be.

frumanchu · Apr 22, 2003

17th April 2003 at 06:19 PM bird said this in Post #383
slaves always do what their masters tell them because of fear of punishment, not because they necessarily "want" to....a slave is not "free" to exercise his own choice.  he fears punishment...therefore his behaviour is coerced, conditioned.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that ones slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The New King James Version. 1996, c1982 (electronic ed.) (Ro 6:16-23). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

Look at verse 18. We are set free from one master to become the slave of another. Never are we presented as one who is so totally free as some would have us believe. Man's will is a slave to his desire. It is simply the way we were created. It is a functional relationship that is part of what makes man man. In that sense we are also a reflection of our Creator, for He is also bound to His desire...and thanks be to God that His is a perfect, good and ever-righteous desire. God's desire is never wicked, but His will ALWAYS operates according to that which is perfectly righteous. Righteousness is not defined in the subjective view of the created, but in the sovereign and perfect character of the Almighty God.

Ahhh....so nice to have the forums back up. That Apache server install message mocked me!

Predestination/"Free Will"

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Voted best Semper Reformada signature ~ 2007

<font color="darkblue"><i><b>A filthy, rotten, sin

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<font color="darkblue"><i><b>A filthy, rotten, sin

God's justice does not demand second chances

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