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Budge

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Im reading Dave Hunts book on it, well just starting. What Love Is This?

He disagrees with it.

Are Calvinists premillinial or amillenial?

What does Total Depravity really mean?

And what does the Elect really mean? Does this mean some people are LOST no matter what?

I know the Presbyterian church is Calvinistic, what other denoms are related to it?
 

Job_38

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Total Depravity basically means that man is sinful (Romans 3:23) Here is a quote from Joel A. Merritt:

The doctrine of man being totally depraved is a very important doctrine to understand. From this doctrine three of the other "points of Calvinism" can be derived, although each of the five points can stand independently, for all of them are taught throughout the Holy Scriptures.

What exactly is the teaching of this doctrine? It is the teaching that man’s heart is totally incapable of producing righteousness; theologically, it is said to be totally depraved. This depravity is present at conception and has been inherited from Adam.

The elect does mean that. Let me ask you, do you believe some people go to hell and others to heaven?
 
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Job_38

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Reformationist

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Yesterday at 05:33 PM Budge said this in Post #1&nbsp;

What does Total Depravity really mean?

Total Depravity means that "the effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is <I>intensely</I> sinful, but that sin has <I>extended</I> to his entire being.

The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5)."

- Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

And what does the Elect really mean?

The "elect" are the people "whom God was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8)."

- Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

Does this mean some people are LOST no matter what?

As to this I must admit that there seems to be a tone to this question that implies that fallen man inherantly has redeeming qualities that would ingratiate God into providing salvation.&nbsp; The Biblical Truth of the nature of fallen man is that he will never even desire the grace of God, much less seek it (Rom 3:10-18).&nbsp; The "no matter what" becomes a bit irrelevent in this case because unregenerate man will never do anything out of obedience to God.

I know the Presbyterian church is Calvinistic, what other denoms are related to it?

I know that there are some Baptist churches that are reformed in their teachings also.

God bless
 
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Budge-

Hi there! Thanks for the questions, I'm happy to chat with you about it. :)

Im reading Dave Hunts book on it, well just starting. What Love Is This?

Dave Hunt's book is really a bad place to start exploring, in all honesty. I've liked some of his other works, but this one was really terribly done. He distorts Calvinism and attacks a straw man rather than really addressing his subject. There are other works that are similar. For example, I disagree with Catholicism, but I would never use Boettner's book on the subject because it's lousy scholarship. Same with Gerstner's book on Dispensationalism, it's dated and straw mannish. Calvinists sat down with Dave Hunt both before and after he wrote the book and explained to him the misrepresentations, so he really can't even claim ignorance... Millard Erickson, a non-Calvinist Baptist, does a good job in his Systematic of showing both sides, from what I remember. It's a very readable book that shows multiple views on most topics of theology.

Are Calvinists premillinial or amillenial?

This is really impossibe to answer. There are solid Calvinists of classical premillenial, amillenial and post-millenial belief. Even most Dispensationalists would come under 4-point Calvinism, historically. The evangelical Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Germans and Dutch Reformed would be generally amill, while Calvinist Baptists would /generally/ lean toward classical premill.

I know the Presbyterian church is Calvinistic, what other denoms are related to it?

There are Reformed people in virtually every section of Evangelicalism. Denominations which have a plurality of Reformed would include: Reformed Episcopal, Welsh Methodists, many Anglican churches, the Dutch Reformed, the Swiss and German Reformed, Reformed Baptists, Primitive Baptists, Conservative Baptists, evangelical Congregationalists, Sovereign Grace International, the PCA, the URS, the ARPC, the OPC, the PCRUS, many Bible churches, and others.

Calvinism was once the mainstream of belief in America. Yale historian Sydney Ahlstrom wrote that 95% of people in America at the time of the Revolution came from Reformed stock. When people talk about America's Christian heritage, it's largely a Reformed heritage. Every one of the Colonels in Washington's army was a Presbyterian with the exception of one man. :)

The rise of Arminianism took place through the 19th and 20th Centuries, so the landscape has changed a bit. But Calvinism still has a very strong presence in the US. And it's growing again.

And what does the Elect really mean?

The Elect are those whom Jesus was speaking about when He said "all those the Father has given me." The real drama of salvation is the Father setting apart and purifying a Bride for the Son. Those whom the Father has chosen for his Son, which is mentioned especially clearly in Romans 8, 9 and Ephesians 1, are the Elect.

Does this mean some people are LOST no matter what?

One thing that gets lost often in discussion about predestination and the like is that predestination and election condemns NO ONE. Men condemn themselves through sin and unbelief. No one ever goes to Hell because God made them. They go to Hell because they reject God's call to repent of their sins and turn to Christ. Men's hearts are blackened with sin, and their desire is to do evil continually. God twists no one's arm to make him reject Christ. We send ourselves to Hell.

People often act as if this second chance is something that is OWED by God. They often don't see that this destroys the very concept of Grace. If God's offer of salvation is an obligation, then it isn't grace. It's duty. God would have been utterly just to condemn all of us. It is amazing and glorious that He saves "many", given the depth of our sin, and the majesty of His holiness. I don't think we can really appreciate the awesomeness of our salvation until we get a vision for the depth of the sin and slavery from which we were saved, and the transcendent holiness of the God whom we have offended.
 
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Blindfaith-

That is one awesome post there Semper ~ I learned a lot._ In particular, your last paragraph._ Beautifully said, my friend.

You and I really have quite a mutual-admiration society going... ;) Thanks for the kind words.

Budge-

What does Total Depravity really mean?

Total depravity can often be misunderstood. I'll start by explaining what it DOESN'T mean. It doesn't mean we're as bad as we possibly could be. Not all of us, clearly, are Charles Manson or Hitler. All of us love children and puppies and the like. We pay our taxes, say hi to the neighbor, etc. Even the worst heathens do this. Why? Not because there is anything inherently good within us, but because the Holy Spirit restrains us from being as desparately wicked as we WOULD be, apart from the grace which God shows to all men. Which is called common grace (not because it is cheap, but because it is common to all. Think "the rain falls on the godly and the ungodly.")

What it DOES mean, though, is that no part of man has escaped the corrupting influence of the Fall. His body, his mind, judgment, will, emotion, soul, spirit and golf handicap are all in bondage to sin. The Bible describes man as "drinking iniquity like water." There is no bright spot somewhere inside that remains pure or undefiled.

Total depravity is also called total inability. What this means is that man is totally unable to come to Christ on His own. The Bible says that to the natural man's mind the Gospel is "foolishness." It's interesting the metaphors the Bible uses to illustrate man's spiritual condition--

Man is: a slave to sin; a slave to Satan; a child of Satan; dead in sin; with a heart of stone.

All of these serve to illustrate our total helplessness and bondage. Slaves don't free themselves, the dead don't resurrect themselves and hearts of stone don't turn to flesh on their own.

This is just a quick explanation off the top of my head of what Total Depravity means. If I've been vague on anything I'm happy to clarify. :)

Again, thanks for asking about these things. Discovering the doctrines of grace was a life-changing thing for me. It changed my walk, both in terms of my witnessing to others, and in the gratitude I felt toward God for my salvation. I KNOW, in my heart of hearts, that there was nothing worthy in me. I'm saved UTTERLY by grace, and that not of myself.

Reformationist!

Good to see you! It's been ages...
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 06:16 PM SemperReformanda said this in Post #10

Blindfaith-

That is one awesome post there Semper ~ I learned a lot._ In particular, your last paragraph._ Beautifully said, my friend.

You and I really have quite a mutual-admiration society going... ;) Thanks for the kind words.

Budge-

What does Total Depravity really mean?

Total depravity can often be misunderstood. I'll start by explaining what it DOESN'T mean. It doesn't mean we're as bad as we possibly could be. Not all of us, clearly, are Charles Manson or Hitler. All of us love children and puppies and the like. We pay our taxes, say hi to the neighbor, etc. Even the worst heathens do this. Why? Not because there is anything inherently good within us, but because the Holy Spirit restrains us from being as desparately wicked as we WOULD be, apart from the grace which God shows to all men. Which is called common grace (not because it is cheap, but because it is common to all. Think "the rain falls on the godly and the ungodly.")

What it DOES mean, though, is that no part of man has escaped the corrupting influence of the Fall. His body, his mind, judgment, will, emotion, soul, spirit and golf handicap are all in bondage to sin. The Bible describes man as "drinking iniquity like water." There is no bright spot somewhere inside that remains pure or undefiled.

Total depravity is also called total inability. What this means is that man is totally unable to come to Christ on His own. The Bible says that to the natural man's mind the Gospel is "foolishness." It's interesting the metaphors the Bible uses to illustrate man's spiritual condition--

Man is: a slave to sin; a slave to Satan; a child of Satan; dead in sin; with a heart of stone.

All of these serve to illustrate our total helplessness and bondage. Slaves don't free themselves, the dead don't resurrect themselves and hearts of stone don't turn to flesh on their own.

This is just a quick explanation off the top of my head of what Total Depravity means. If I've been vague on anything I'm happy to clarify. :)

Again, thanks for asking about these things. Discovering the doctrines of grace was a life-changing thing for me. It changed my walk, both in terms of my witnessing to others, and in the gratitude I felt toward God for my salvation. I KNOW, in my heart of hearts, that there was nothing worthy in me. I'm saved UTTERLY by grace, and that not of myself.

Reformationist!

Good to see you! It's been ages...


Excellent answer...always glad to meet another Calvinist:>)
 
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rnmomof7

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Yesterday at 08:33 PM Budge said this in Post #1

Im reading Dave Hunts book on it, well just starting. What Love Is This?

He disagrees with it.

Are Calvinists premillinial or amillenial?

What does Total Depravity really mean?

And what does the Elect really mean? Does this mean some people are LOST no matter what?

I know the Presbyterian church is Calvinistic, what other denoms are related to it?

Calvinists are pre mil and a mil and post mil and historic premil

Most are post or amil but you can meet many different opinions

Elect means God selected to be saved.
God selects according to His good pleasure..not according to ones actions .
read Romans 9 for clarification

There are Reform Baptists, some presbyterians., Dutch Reformed,

The puritians were Calvinists, as was the historic Anglicans
 
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rnmomof7-

Nice to meet you too! I like your avatar. My wife, the Duchess, usually goes by the moniker "Tulipgirl" on forums. :)

Budge-

Here's a link to what I believe is the fairest and most gentle response to Dave Hunt's book that I've found. If you do read his book, this site will give a better and fuller response than I can, though I'm happy to continue with the discussion... :)

Here's the link: http://www.whatloveisthis.com/home.html
 
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Reformationist

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Semper, well, I didn't think it could've been explained better than you did the first time.&nbsp; I was wrong.&nbsp; You made it even clearer with the outstanding job you did the second time.

I can do no more than offer up my resounding Amen and thanks for sharing your wisdom my friend.

God bless,

Don
 
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rnmomof7

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Today at 06:58 PM SemperReformanda said this in Post #13

rnmomof7-

Nice to meet you too! I like your avatar. My wife, the Duchess, usually goes by the moniker "Tulipgirl" on forums. :)

Budge-

Here's a link to what I believe is the fairest and most gentle response to Dave Hunt's book that I've found. If you do read his book, this site will give a better and fuller response than I can, though I'm happy to continue with the discussion... :)

Here's the link: http://www.whatloveisthis.com/home.html

Great link..Thanks
 
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SoldierofChrist

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Wow, Semper, superb job. Believe it or not I thought God chose some to go to hell purposefully. A misunderstanding on my part. I've been looking into Calvinism for some time now, and that as well as the limited atonement issue bothered me. I guess it's my synergistic attitude that prevented me to understand this. I think I've just about become a 5 point Calvinist
 
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SoldierofChrist

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P.S. Regarding Dave Hunt's book, Dr. James R. White deals with Dave Hunt a lot on his ministry website, www.aomin.org He has debated him over live radio at least once, and is actually co-authoring a debate format book with Dave Hunt regarding Calvinism and Arminianism. There's a few articles on the site as well about Dave Hunt's rejection of Calvinism. Not sure when the book is going to come out, but, I'm sure if you stayed up to date on his website you would be able to find out.
 
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CCWoody

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Yesterday at 07:33 PM Budge said this in Post #1

Are Calvinists premillinial or amillenial?

Well, this one is a Partial Preterist Amill.....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


P.S. As much fun as it might be to stay and play on the zillionth thread, I just started a new thread and I've only got about 6 others I'm watching. Feel free to email me, Budge. I don't bite....
 
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Today at 09:21 PM SoldierofChrist said this in Post #17

...the limited atonement issue bothered me...

You might want to look at this little tidbit on this new thread by CCWoody:

For Whom Did Christ Die?

Remember, as well, the Arminian needs to redefine many Biblical concepts in order to keep his "free will" the central focus of his faith.

The justification of the cross is a perfect example. If, as they argue, Christ died for ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION, and IF we stand on the orthodox definition of Justification (that Christ actually paid the full debt of ALL the sins of those whom he died for -including the sin of "rejecting him"), then why are not ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION saved?

For this reason, the Arminian needs to redefine "Atonement". Christ didn't really pay the actual debt required for my sin. He simply suffered a little bit by allowing God to get a little angry at him. Somehow this is supposed to make it only POSSIBLE for us to be saved.

In other words, Christ didn't actually save anybody on the cross.

The Calvinist, on the other hand, argues that Christ accomplished what he came to do (To save HIS people from their sins -Matt 1:21). On the cross, Christ paid the actual price for ALL of my sins.

Idzerd
 
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