Mystery Bablyon?

applepowerpc · May 16, 2004

> ...................then in 538 BC it was again and was so until 70 AD then it was no More

No it wasn't. Israel was not a nation. It was part of Persia, then Greece, then Rome. As for Israel vs. Judah, that's irrelevant.

applepowerpc · May 16, 2004

> Now what we have today is Not Israel of the Old testament it is Judea so to say Israel is back is just not true.

However, I do agree with that. My point is, I am putting Israel and the Beast together as part of the same entity. There is a holy Israel--Christ's people--and there is the unholy Israel--that thing sitting in Palestine today.

ephesians2:8-9 · May 17, 2004

To applepowerpc

FYI - Jeremiah's prophecies about Babylon did NOT happen. More later down in this response, but first.

My resonses:

>>>For those who think Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon - consider that such a theory would negate other scripture.

>How about the entire book of Hosea? The whole book, Jerusalem is a harlot. And that's Old >Testament--apostle John knew that.

Mystery Babylon will be destroyed forever, never to be rebuilt. M.B. is not just a city but a nation. If Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon then so is all of Israel, but even if you only limit it to Jerusalem as M.B. the problem is that M.B. is to never be reinhabited again. Yet, the Messianic prophecies state that during the Millenial Reign of Christ, he will rule from Jerusalem. This cannot be so if Jerusalem is M.B. because M.B. is to never be inhabited during the Millenial Reign or anytime thereafter, so the Millenial Prophecies for Jerusalem are invalid? Not so. The problem is that Jerusalem is not and cannot be M.B.

Jeremiah 50 and 51 describe a future event at the time of the coming of Messiah, not 566 BC. There are numerous Messianic references throughout Isaiah 13, 14, 47 and Jeremiah 50 & 51 in the form of Hebrew idioms... particularly "Gevlai shel meshiach" i.e. "the banner of the Messiah"

This is something totally missed by folks who don't know Hebrew or understand the Hebrew Messianic Idioms used in that day. The idioms are found very subtly in Jeremiah 50:2 which introduces the entire two chapters...

"Declare ye among the nations" -- a Messianic idiom
"Publish and set up a standard" -- this is an abbreviated form of the Messianic idiom "gevlai shel meshiach"

The Messianic idiom involved here is a lengthy and complicated concept. When the Messiah comes, he is to be announced ahead of time to the nation by a signalling system. The Messiah was to be met at the gates of Jerusalem by all the elders of the tribes of Israel and escorted into the city. In order to accomplish this with all the tribes being scattered across the land, a complicated system of signalling was established and
it involved sentries - watchmen - scattered across the entire border regions of Israel. They had a flag that was to be waved when they saw the Messiah coming towards them. They would wave that "flag" i.e. a "banner" i.e. "standard" towards the next hill to let that guard know that the Messiah was approaching. He in turn would do the same to the next hill's watchman who would likewise do the same and so it would go until the news was flashed or "published" to the entire nation and the elders would be alerted to beat-feet
to Jerusalem quickly to meet the Messiah, after all, the Messiah is not to be kept waiting.

Now, the Old Testament prophets of Isaiah and Jeremiah were familiar with these Messianic requirements and the language had created idioms for them, to keep the language concise. After all, in a passage, you can use a word or a phrase to say the same thing as an entire paragraph and you cut down on possible errors of copying. We do the same today with idioms in our English language.

Example: For baseball -
"He lit him up on that swing of the bat" - An idiom meaning a home run in which after the home run is hit a fireworks display lights up the sky ... Did his swing of the bat light up the pitcher literally? No, its an idiom for the explanation I just gave. Another one - "he was swinging for the fences on that one."

So we do the same thing today. We have idioms. The Messianic idioms are only obscure if you don't know about them and don't know Hebrew.

Jeremiah 50:4 - more Messianic idiom references here == "in those days, and at that time" - i.e The days of the Lord's judgment at His coming. Again, these idioms are noted by Rabbis, I didn't make this stuff up. Same idiom used again in verse 20.

In Jeremiah 51: 12 Again the banner idiom - "Set up the standard (banner)" Banner of the Messiah will be set over Babylon's defenses. i.e. in the sky for Babylon's defenses mount into outer space. 51:53 - see original Hebrew term = Shameh,= sky - where the stars are, the abode of God and where the angels fly. See also 51:27 - yet again another "messianic banner idiom" - plus the trumpet idiom - the special trumpet signal for the Messiah was to be blown - again in the verse we see this referenced in a shortened idiom.

So clearly Jeremiah is indeed referring to a Babylon at the time of the Coming of Messiah.

We also see the same Messianic idioms in Isaiah 13:1-6 and some idioms are obscure and others less so -- such as in 13:6 - "day of the Lord" is clearly used in full not partial idiom. ditto v. 9.

Another interesting idiom in Isa 13:2 is again the "banner" idiom + the gates of the nobles idiom i.e. 'elders' plus .. an interesting idiom describing just who destroys Babylon - in v.3 - "my sanctified ones" - those who are without sin. The next sentence says literally in the Hebrew, " the ones whom I've called to my nose" is absolutely a literal Hebrew idiom referring to the Passover feast segment where savory herbs are brought to the nose to remind the partaker that God smells us savory and sweet because we are without sin by
being washed in the blood of the passover lamb sacrifice. So we have a double entendre indicating that those doing the destroying of Babylon are without sin, sinless. I take it a reference to the angels, because in Isaiah 13:19 references Sodom and Gomorrah who were destroyed by an angelic team.

We also see Jeremiah also use similar reference in Jeremiah 50:40. Plus the angels mentioned in Revelation 16:!7-21 and 18:21. Then in Jeremiah we also see references to "out of the north" in which the term has more than one meaning and can mean "where God's throne room is." The terms also describe "aliens" will do the deed on Babylon. But also mentioned are 4 tribes/nations existing around the Caspian Sea who are somehow involved also, including Persia as one of the 4.

Keep in mind, ancient Babylon was not destroyed by fire, EVER. The description of the destruction in Jeremiah 50, 51 have NEVER, EVER been fulfilled, period. Not even close. Cyrus, and the Persians took the city intact with little bloodshed and made the city their own capital of the empire. It remained a valid, working city of renown through the time of Christ. In fact, more Jews were still living in Babylon in 30 A.D. than in all of Israel. See Dr. Alfred Edersheim's "The Life & Times of Jesus The Messiah" for confirmation of this fact. He makes a great point in Volume 1 about how the Jewish Rabbis in Babylon were wringing their hands because the Priests and Rabbis in Israel were letting the nation lose its Hebrew language roots by speaking koine-Greek instead of Hebrew. This was causing the Babylonian Talmud and the Babylonian Rabbis to lose their influence with the Jews in Israel.

You point about Amillenialism is simply absurd. The New Jerusalem comes after the Millenial Reign of Christ when there is a new heaven and a new earth. We have a 1,000 year gap between Babylon's demise and that of the whole earth. Christ will reign for 1,000 years first and then comes the final rebellion of Satan for a little while when He is finally released. Then comes the final judgment and a New Jerusalem.

Furthermore, there are numerous other physical traits listed in the texts for Babylon that Jerusalem simply does NOT fulfill, among which is that Babylon is a Deep-water Port city where all the mega-ships of the world dock and unload their cargoes and in which marketplace the world trades a laundry list of 29 commodities among them, gold, silver and copper... the three of which are traded in NYC on the Comex and for which more than half of the world's trading is done. There is no trade in gold, silver or copper in Jerusalem. Neither is true of any of the other 18+ commodities listed and for which when destroyed, the merchants of the earth - multi-nationals lament the loss of their most key marketplace
for buyers... for they lament in Rev 18:11 "for no man buyeth their merchandise anymore" -- and then verse 12 - 13 gives the full list of 29 items that are traded in Babylon.

Keep in mind that M.B. is a city-state nation, with I think NYC being the focal point but the entire judgment covers the entire nation of America. NYC is the considered to be the chief city or the primary city, just as Rome was for the Roman Empire, as was Babylon for Babylonia as is Paris for France, Moscow for Russia Berlin for Germany and London for England and Tokyo for Japan.

To be continued - next post below

ephesians2:8-9 · May 17, 2004

continued from prior post above:

Now,

Regarding the burning of Babylon. The ships captains and sailors are the ones trading those commodities
as listed in verses 11-13. They are standing offshore aboard ships, the Greek term indicates that they are
in the process of sailing, i.e on the water. You lose that notion in the English translations. They are bringing
in Gold, Silver, Copper, things listed in vss 11-13 into port. BTW, Jerusalem and Israel are not a trading nor
a marketing hub. Neither is Israel rich, In fact, Israel lives on handouts, mostly from America. She has
no economy. If Israel suddenly disappeared from the face of the Earth, it wouldn't affect the world's
economy one whit. But America suddenly going poof, and you betcha, the World's economy would be in
the toilet in a flash!.

There are many, many other character traits that disqualify Israel and Jerusalem, such as Jeremiah 50:23
using a Hebrew Idiom "hammer of the whole earth" - applied by Rabbis to Babylon and later to Persia, then
Alexander, the Great's Greece, and still later and quite often of Rome. It referred to Rome sending out
troops to keep the Pax Romana in the world. Our idiom today would be "World's Policeman." Both have
the same meaning, keeping peace in the world, or the World's PeaceKeeper. Israel has never been in that
role. Another one is Jeremiah 51:44 - Babylon of the future is a place where all the world's leaders will stream
to meet - in another words a world-gathering of leaders meeting in Babylon often. Doesn't happen in Israel.
It does in NYC at the UN once a year, and occasionally more often than annually.

Also Babylon is a land swimming in waters, fresh waters. Jeremiah 51:13, 36, 42, & Isaiah 18:2.
Babylon also is a land that has no fear of invasion by armies of other nations. Isaiah 47:5, 8. - a passage
closely referening Revelation 17 & 18. Again Jeremiah 51:53 - Military power extending out into outer space.
Only the USA qualifies in that regard. Noted also for extensive drug use - Isaiah 47:9, 12 & Rev 18:24
Ditto for her use of the occult. see same references.

Babylon is called a Pekod--- that was a gentile group that lived with Israelites and Moses when they fled
Egypt and later and followed the Mosaic laws and acted like Jews.

There are probably more but those I've already cited are more than enough to sink the theory that Jerusalem
and Israel are Mystery Babylon.

Also Babylon is host for the largest percentage of the world's Jews. There are more Jews living in the USA
today than in Israel and Russia combined. Again, just another Babylonian link that voids the notion that
Israel or Jerusalem could be Mystery Babylon.

Messianic prophecies stating that Israel's boundaries will run to the Euphrates River --
Genesis 15:7-8 God promises Abraham the land through his descendants - then Deuteronomy 1:7b ...
"and unto the great river Euphrates" setting the eventual boundaries for Israel - Millennial Kingdom.
Again Deuteronomy 11:24 - "the river, the Euphrates river" again referencing the outer boundaries of Israel.
Joshua 1:4 ..."even unto the great river, the river Euphrates."

So, the Millenial kingdom will stretch to the Euphrates river. Seeing how if Iraq is Babylon and destroyed
forever so that no one ever lives there -- then how is it that Israel will be able to live and occupy and thus
fulfill God's promises?

Now in regards to the notion that Israel / Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon or future Babylon, again, there has
been no Millenial reign of peace for 1,000 years of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem. The lion has not laid down
with the lamb yet. The millenial prophecies remain unfulfilled and await fulfillment. Then afterwards, the
entire planet is engulfed in a final Satanic rebellion after a 1,000 year prison term, that necessitates a
new heaven and new earth be created.

I am amazed at how far American Christians will go to avoid facing the textual and empirical evidence that is
overwhelmingly pointing to America as Mystery Babylon. It was different when there was no one out there
who'd stumbled onto this information to show the way, but now there are many, many of us who have awakened to the awful reality, but the American church is in a state of complete denial

Brain Damage · May 17, 2004

ephesians2:8-9

First question , what American city was the apostle Peter in when he wrote this letter :

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you;
and so doth Marcus my son.

@@Paul@@ · May 17, 2004

applepowerpc said:
> NO, Israel did not fit this at all.

*sigh* thanks for backing that up.

586 B.C. Israel ceased to be
65 A.D. Israel was not
1948 Israel came to be

Yes, but in that theory. Anyone who died, and then was brought back to life fits the profile of "the beast".

Isreal was NEVER likened to a beast... She is always likened to a bride, or a wife,, or a woman.. see Rev. 12.

Veritas · May 17, 2004

Ah, the beauty of sola scriptura in action!

@@Paul@@ · May 17, 2004

Veritas said:
Ah, the beauty of sola scriptura in action!

what exactly is "sola scriptura"?? i take it was something to do with this "reformed theology" movement,, but really i have no :idea:

Brain Damage · May 17, 2004

@@Paul@@ said:
Isreal was NEVER likened to a beast... She is always likened to a bride, or a wife,, or a woman.. see Rev. 12.

Ahh good one Paul! Yes she is likened to a wife or woman : I sit as queen; I am not a widow, and I will never mourn. Rev 18:7

And here is her husband , the king who is not dead :
Isa 54:5 - For your Maker is your husband, The Lord of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.

Palatka44 · May 17, 2004

Once again I'll ask this question, Where in history has America oppressed the nation of Israel?

All nations and empires outside of the commonwealth of Israel that have been fore told of in scripture are those that have oppressed Israel.

America has supported Israel sense 1947 and frankly I do not see the US deviating from that history anytime soon.

Symes · May 17, 2004

We are getting of track. the question we should be looking at is "Mystery Bablyon"

Lets see if anyone is brave enough to put a name to it?

We have beat around the bush long enough!

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · May 17, 2004

The answer-
Revelation 17:

1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."
3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
7When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

Simply put, this is Rome. Rome is famous for its seven hills, when it ruled over the kings of the earth, with multitudes of people and languages, etc. Notice, this is written as if the city was their at that time, and indeed, it was. Don't believe foolish explanations that do not support scripture. Whatever you think, make sure it comes straight from the Bible!

@@Paul@@ · May 17, 2004

Symes said:
We are getting of track. the question we should be looking at is "Mystery Bablyon"

Lets see if anyone is brave enough to put a name to it?

We have beat around the bush long enough!

Baal worship, which originated from Babylon (the mother of harlots...). Thus, representing the root of paganism (rev. 17) AND an actual city (Rev. 18) which is yet to be judged (Jer., Isa. etc. etc).

Symes · May 17, 2004

Baal worship, which originated from Babylon (the mother of harlots...). Thus, representing the root of paganism (rev. 17) AND an actual city (Rev. 18) which is yet to be judged (Jer., Isa. etc. etc).

Not bad for starters but lets get right into it and see who this "MYSTERY BABYLON" really is.

Who is the city and what does this city do now?

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · May 17, 2004

Read my post above please. I think I answered that.

Duke Nukem · May 17, 2004

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
The answer-
Revelation 17:

1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."
3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead: MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
7When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

Simply put, this is Rome. Rome is famous for its seven hills, when it ruled over the kings of the earth, with multitudes of people and languages, etc. Notice, this is written as if the city was their at that time, and indeed, it was. Don't believe foolish explanations that do not support scripture. Whatever you think, make sure it comes straight from the Bible!

Modern Rome embraces more than seven hills (even Vatican Hill was not one of the original seven); still, ancient Rome was normally called the City of Seven Hills (Aenid, VI, 785). But ancient Babylon also had seven artificial hills within its walls, and even Constantinople (often called the Second Rome) had seven hills within its boundaries. The city of Jerusalem might be said to be on seven hills if all of them associated with the city are counted. So, one must be careful and not presume that John is definitely referring to Rome. Especially is this true when one notices that the seven mountains of Revelation 17:10 are not literal mountains, but that John identified them as being seven kings.

And here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. And there are seven kings

 Revelation 17:910

The word there is not in the Greek text. The literal Greek shows the seven mountains ARE, or they represent, seven kings. They are not actual mountains at all.

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · May 17, 2004

They are both. As for the seven hills, realize this: This was written to people in a time where news traveled slow. Schools, if an area had them, didn't come with standardized geography books. Rome was traditionally the city on seven hills, and the common citizen from that time would not know about the arguements we are discussing. Some things, we have to really study on, but on others, we cannot forget to whom this book was written, the early church, to whom most of this happened to.

@@Paul@@ · May 17, 2004

Symes said:
Not bad for starters but lets get right into it and see who this "MYSTERY BABYLON" really is.

Who is the city and what does this city do now?

The "city" is in mystery form, hence the name. "Mystery, Babylon...." It was been a mystery since it's temporary demise. One day it will be an actual city again, somewhere, then she'll finally be judged as prophesied in the scriptures. Probably Babylon,Iraq or something?? almost too easy to be true. :idea:

(Christ did actually ride into Jerusalem on an a$$) But sure we'll figure it out when it happens.

This "city" can be seen in all the New Age/Witchcraft/Eastern Religion beliefs. But it will pop it's head out one day and become it's own "city" again...

Bizzlebin Imperatoris · May 17, 2004

A city doesn't have to rebuild itself just to be judged

And please don't make comments that are irrelevant to the conversation, especially like that, about my God...Thanks

@@Paul@@ · May 17, 2004

Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
A city doesn't have to rebuild itself just to be judged And please don't make comments that are irrelevant to the conversation, especially like that, about my God...Thanks

According the the OT they might... All the prophesies regarding Babylon were describing a literal city... Therefore, literal Babylon will be rebuilt, somewhere... and then judged after her 7 year reign...

I don't think i said it HAD to be rebuilt to be judged did i?

Mystery Bablyon?

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